8BIT 1337 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 What is the difference between the exes and the atrs? I've tried to find something on this (using search) but came up blank. By EXEs I of course mean the files you can load in Atari800Win by using "Alt-X", and by ATRs I of course mean full disk images ("Alt-B"). I know that if I create a single density disk image it's 91k. Why aren't all my atrs 91k (or 151k)? Like Alley Cat say - it's disk image is 65k. Alley Cat's exe file is only 35k. Does the disk image have a dos as part of it or something? My understanding of exes is that they were broken versions of the game in question. So what, in general, did they have to do to break them from atrs to exes? I've always wondered and never asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Hi, I'll try to answer this one, please correct me if I'm wrong... First of all, I think you need to identify real ATR images and fake ones. A "real" ATR image should be the size of a standard disk, either 90K (single density), 130K (medium density) or 180K (double density). apart from one or two demos, I have not encountered other densities. A commercial disk which has just been unprotected or is not copy-protected will be in this format. Same if you decide to write a game and decide to release it on a disk of 90K, 130K or 180K. Or decide to take single files you want to auto-boot on disks of 90K, 130K or 180K (with or without an Atari DOS). "Fake" ATR images are any other "weird" size. They are executables (more on this later) or BASIC files (originally with a BAS extender) that have been modified so they can auto-boot on emulators (extra bytes are added to the file so the Atari or emulator knows it is an auto-boot). The 65K Alley Cat you are referring to was created with APE (you can create any disk size you want with it), DOS has probably been added and the executable file was renamed AUTORUN.SYS so the whole thing can auto-boot. IMO, "fake" ATR images can be extremely confusing and should be avoided whenever possible. An executable is either a hacked / cracked game from disk / tape / cartridge or just a normal binary file that was saved on an Atari disk (like a magazine listing you type in). You can usually load binary games directly from an Atari DOS disk. Note that some Atari utilities also allow you to modify a BASIC file (with BAS extender) to change it into an executable. Hope that wasn't too confusing -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 First of all, I think you need to identify real ATR images and fake ones. A "real" ATR image should be the size of a standard disk, either 90K (single density), 130K (medium density) or 180K (double density). apart from one or two demos, I have not encountered other densities. An ATR file can be any size, since it is just a file with a (IIRC) 16-byte header and then the raw sector data. If the program doesn't use all 720 of those sectors, than they will all be blank. No reason to keep all those blank sectors in there. But, as far as I know there is no provision to cut down on the size if, for instance, sector 720 is needed. In that case, the whole 720 sector image is needed. So the short answer is that ATR files smaller than the standard sizes are just fine. "Fake" ATR images are any other "weird" size. They are executables (more on this later) or BASIC files (originally with a BAS extender) that have been modified so they can auto-boot on emulators (extra bytes are added to the file so the Atari or emulator knows it is an auto-boot). I've never seen anything like this. An executable on the Atari has a certain format that is unlike that of the ATR. A basic file has yet another format. I haven't had much experience with other emulators besides Atari800Win, but I'd be suprised if there were significant differences. The emulator doesn't "know" that a file is an auto-boot file. In the case of an ATR it just processes the sectors as a real Atari would do, loading sectors 1-3 to determine if the disk should autoboot. It also has the added capability of loading an executable without loading a DOS first, which the Atari cannot do, but those files are standard executable files. The 65K Alley Cat you are referring to was created with APE (you can create any disk size you want with it), DOS has probably been added and the executable file was renamed AUTORUN.SYS so the whole thing can auto-boot. IMO, "fake" ATR images can be extremely confusing and should be avoided whenever possible. There are other utilities out there that created ATRs from executables and add a boot record to load them. MakeATR is one that I seem to remember. (That's the one that prints the little k in the corner at boot time isn't it? maybe not.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Shawn, I believe my explanation wasn't too clear... The "fake" ATR images I'm referring to are the ones created with MAKEATR or BAS2ATR from executables and BASIC files. Non-standard 65K, 111K or whatever ATR images should also be avoided. I believe it's important to keep software in native form whenever possible. Just an example... If you have a file named BRUCELEE.COM and use MAKEATR so it auto-boots, you'll a have a file called BRUCELEE.ATR. Now if you decide to dump the original Datasoft disk game, you'll also name it BRUCELEE.ATR and you'll end up with two images with the same name on your HD! My point: those "fake" ATR images are not only useless but confusing and a step backwards if you want to archive software (which, unfortunately, is not a subject of choice in the A8 arena). -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classics Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 There is a EXE2ATR utility that makes those bootable EXE-ATR images. In fact I think the ATR images are not even created correctly. You can recognize them by the 'k' that appears on the screen during the boot load. I guess they are useful if you want a real disk made from one EXE file, but other than that you are better off with just raw EXE files, even for emulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8BIT 1337 Posted December 10, 2004 Author Share Posted December 10, 2004 Hope that wasn't too confusing Not at all. Obviously something didn't sit right with me and this *totally* makes sense. So was booting straight from an executable not available in previous releases of Atari800Win? Or maybe the PC Mirror functionality of APE wasn't available? Because at this point I'm not sure why I'd bother creating an atr image from my exes if I can still play it either on my actual machine or in an emulator? In fact I'm planning on getting rid of my 'fake' images as long as my exe is running properly (and if it isn't, only until I find a working exe ). My point: those "fake" ATR images are not only useless but confusing and a step backwards if you want to archive software (which, unfortunately, is not a subject of choice in the A8 arena). I agree with you - it totally *should* be a subject of choice. I've been dying for AA to tackle a software list for the 8-bits like they have for the consoles but obviously that hasn't happened yet. Atarimania is the main resource I use when trying to identify stuff as I archive and organize my collection - is there anything else out there I should know about? You can recognize them by the 'k' that appears on the screen during the boot load. Ahhh. Finally the 'k' is explained! I originally thought it was an emulator specific thing (in the days before I had APE) and was surprised to see it appear on my actual machine. Never thought to ask about it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 So was booting straight from an executable not available in previous releases of Atari800Win? Or maybe the PC Mirror functionality of APE wasn't available? You're correct, I think the very first emulators (like PCXFormer) couldn't boot executables. I agree with you - it totally *should* be a subject of choice. I've been dying for AA to tackle a software list for the 8-bits like they have for the consoles but obviously that hasn't happened yet. Atarimania is the main resource I use when trying to identify stuff as I archive and organize my collection - is there anything else out there I should know about? Well, there's something like 8-9,000 games so it's not easy... There are some very nice sites out there for other platforms dealing with the preservation of software. I like what World of Spectrum is doing for example. Hopefully, we'll manage to archive most of the things the same way with an emphasis on original versions of games rather than cracks. Next step would be to have 100% dumps (with copy protection). Probably in the not too distant future Unfortunately, because there is nothing really official about preserving software, you end up with multiple files of the same game, you don't know which is which (because of no historical data) and you rely on the horrible TOSEC tools. It becomes a big mess if you don't try to organize things a bit more... Ahhh. Finally the 'k' is explained! I originally thought it was an emulator specific thing (in the days before I had APE) and was surprised to see it appear on my actual machine. Never thought to ask about it though I believe that "K" is the author's first name initial -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8BIT 1337 Posted December 10, 2004 Author Share Posted December 10, 2004 You're correct, I think the very first emulators (like PCXFormer) couldn't boot executables. I thought about this some more after I posted it and I think my PocketPC emulator is the same way. ATRs only, not executibles. Guess I came along at the right time There are some very nice sites out there for other platforms dealing with the preservation of software. I like what World of Spectrum is doing for example. Yeah, I've been there too (it comes from having a subscription to "Retro Gamer" - you just *have* to check out those games ). The nice part about the Speccy is that it seems that they get a lot of support from the development committee (granting permission to post roms and whatnot). Hopefully, we'll manage to archive most of the things the same way with an emphasis on original versions of games rather than cracks. Next step would be to have 100% dumps (with copy protection). Probably in the not too distant future Is that all you're looking for on the website? Original versions as opposed to cracks? I'm pretty sure I have some files that aren't posted on your site but they're probably mostly cracks. Unfortunately, because there is nothing really official about preserving software, you end up with multiple files of the same game, you don't know which is which (because of no historical data) and you rely on the horrible TOSEC tools. It becomes a big mess if you don't try to organize things a bit more... Tell me about it. I'm currently down to about 3000 atrs and exes (which will have a bunch of duplicates I'm sure between the two types). I couldn't tell you what number I started at but it's taken me a *long* time just to get here but it feels good to finally have things personally organized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Is that all you're looking for on the website? Original versions as opposed to cracks? I'm pretty sure I have some files that aren't posted on your site but they're probably mostly cracks. Well, if you have some rare files from personal tape or disk collections (not anything from the various Atari sites or CD-ROMs as we have all this already), we'd love to hear from you. It doesn't matter too much if a very rare file is a crack, the most important thing is to archive it before it disappears completely. We have a lot of common files in the waiting line but they're not on the site yet because we prefer fresh dumps to executables which are sometimes missing some features. This is actually a call for collaboration. There are still HUNDREDS of commercial games on old disks and tapes that have not been dumped yet and we need your help to archive them properly. Please check your old software programs and let us know what you have -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8BIT 1337 Posted December 10, 2004 Author Share Posted December 10, 2004 Well, if you have some rare files from personal tape or disk collections (not anything from the various Atari sites or CD-ROMs as we have all this already), we'd love to hear from you. Will do. Of course I seriously doubt I have *anything* on your rare list but I've kept a copy of it and as I go through my stuff I'll be keeping an eye out. We only ever had around 800 games though so I'm guessing most of it's spoken for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathtrappomegranate Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 You might be surprised. Although Atarimania has a good proportion of the common games already, as Atari Frog said, there are still loads that we don't have. Particular games (and other types of software) were much more readily available in particular geographic locations, and that means that anyone, anywhere, could have stuff that we need. It's absolutely certain that there is stuff out there that we've never heard of, too. The goal of the site is to get as close as possible to having everything that there was and is for the A8. Any assistance is welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrodegang Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 What is the difference between the exes and the atrs? I've tried to find something on this (using search) but came up blank. You should check out Jindroush's site, in particular the section concerned with Atari file-formats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbaeza Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 I believe that "K" is the author's first name initial Hi According to the Atari800Win's documentation, the loader that displays a K letter on the screen was programmed by Ken Siders (hence the K). Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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