Alternate Reality: The City by Philip Price for Atari 800

[Xebec's Demise]

Some people prefer the blue pill.

[NorbertP]

14 minutes ago, Xebec's Demise said:

Some people prefer the blue pill.

Well now that you mention it I also think The Matrix is a terrible movie, so I guess I'm nothing if not consistent!

[Xebec's Demise]

30 minutes ago, NorbertP said:

Well now that you mention it I also think The Matrix is a terrible movie, so I guess I'm nothing if not consistent!

😄

 

Consistently contrarian? I wasn't going to reply to you because from your first hypocritical reply it was obvious you're not even trying to be objective and clearly harboring some kind of bias and unusual disdain for Alternate Reality as a game and it's developer, Philip Price. However, maybe it's worth a try so you can re-examine what you just said.

  

1 hour ago, NorbertP said:

I always wanted to like this game, but of the handful of RPGs I played back in the day - U3, Temple of Apshai, Bard's Tale 3 whenever I visited my C64 owning friend, and AR - I have to confess that AR was the one I enjoyed the least by quite a margin. I guess by modern standards Temple of Apshai barely counts as an RPG but I used to play the heck out of it, I was a little unclear what the goal was in U3 I still enjoyed wandering around murdering orcs and skeletons and always felt like I was achieving something even if I did very little to progress the plot, and I always really wished BT3 was available on the A8, but AR did nothing for me: I probably got far more enjoyment out of the opening graphics than I did from actually playing it.

 

I thought it was maybe because I was just a dumb kid with a dumb kid brain at the time, but every attempt to revisit it in the decades since hasn't done anything to change my opinion: technically impressive but aesthetically unpleasant and monotonous visuals combined with opaque gameplay mechanics and no clear sense of any kind of direction inevitably leads to a a combination of boredom, frustration, and confusion. I'm sure in terms of mechanics it's all very in depth and ground-breaking and whatever, and maybe the concept is interesting, but it kind of feels like the author was too busy being clever and forgot to put an actual game in there...

It appears fairly contradictory that you claim Temple of Apshai barely counts as an RPG, but you enjoyed playing the heck out of it and that the goal of Ultima III was unclear to you, but you still enjoyed it and felt you were achieving something, while at the same time claiming Alternate Reality is aesthetically unpleasant with monotonous visuals and you failed to find an actual game in Alternate Reality, leading to a combination of boredom, frustration and confusion.

 

It truly sounds like you never really gave the game a chance after taking an initial dislike to it as a kid, while at the same time spending a lot of time playing games which by all standards truly do have inferior "aesthetically unpleasant" and "monotonous" graphics and by your own admission had unclear goals for you.

 

So, you're holding on to some kind of grudge and now attacking Philip Price as having not even developed an "actual game."

Edited November 19, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[NorbertP]

21 minutes ago, Xebec's Demise said:

😄

 

Consistently contrarian? I wasn't going to reply to you because from your first hypocritical reply it was obvious you're not even trying to be objective and clearly harboring some kind of bias and unusual disdain for Alternate Reality as a game and it's developer, Philip Price. However, maybe it's worth a try so you can re-examine what you just said.

  

It appears fairly contradictory that you claim Temple of Apshai barely counts as an RPG, but you enjoyed playing the heck out of it and that the goal of Ultima III was unclear to you, but you still enjoyed it and felt you were achieving something, while at the same time claiming Alternate Reality is aesthetically unpleasant with monotonous visuals and you failed to find an actual game in Alternate Reality, leading to a combination of boredom, frustration and confusion.

 

It truly sounds like you never really gave the game a chance after taking an initial dislike to it as a kid, while at the same time spending a lot of time playing games which by all standards truly do have inferior "aesthetically unpleasant" and "monotonous" graphics and by your own admission had unclear goals for you.

 

So, you're holding on to some kind of grudge and now attacking Philip Price as having not even developed an "actual game."

I have no bias or unusual disdain and I'm not attacking anyone. I didn't like the game, but not liking something is not equivalent to attacking anyone, or sowing disdain. I don't like Taylor Swift's music, but that's not "unusual disdain" and I'm not attacking her, I just don't like it, and last time I checked it's perfectly fine to not like something that other people like!

 

I'm also not entirely sure how "I didn't really know what I was doing in U3 but still enjoyed it" and "I didn't know what I was meant to be doing in AR and didn't enjoy it" are contradictory - I found U3 enjoyable despite being unclear of my goals, but that doesn't mean I have to like everything I don't understand. I like going for a walk in the countryside just for the sake of it, but I don't like moving rocks from one pile to another just for the sake of it. This is not contradictory; they are two different things.

 

I'm also not holding on to a grudge. I harbour no ill will towards the author of the game, it doesn't bother me that I don't like it, I haven't been stewing for 35 years because of it. Like I say, I've wanted to like it: there are hundreds, nay, thousands of games I've tried over the last three decades that I've disliked and never gone back to, but AR I've tried again and again on the offchance that it'll "click" and I'll enjoy it, but sadly that's not happened.

 

(And I could go into great detail about why I don't like The Matrix but it's a little off topic, but I will say than in this case disdain is a much more accurate description.)

 

I will now ignore this thread - I have much better things to do with my life than defend myself for the crime of not liking something!

[Xebec's Demise]

I never accused you of a crime for not liking something, apparently you're just someone that likes to exaggerate. However, it is in fact an entirely disingenuous attack to claim Philip Price never made an "actual game" and that his graphics were "aesthetically unpleasant and monotonous" while comparing his game to Ultima III and Temple of Apshai. You exposed yourself as dishonest.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[+kheller2]

Everyone take a step back, deep breadth.   

[zzip]

On 11/19/2022 at 12:03 AM, NorbertP said:

I thought it was maybe because I was just a dumb kid with a dumb kid brain at the time, but every attempt to revisit it in the decades since hasn't done anything to change my opinion: technically impressive but aesthetically unpleasant and monotonous visuals combined with opaque gameplay mechanics and no clear sense of any kind of direction inevitably leads to a a combination of boredom, frustration, and confusion. I'm sure in terms of mechanics it's all very in depth and ground-breaking and whatever, and maybe the concept is interesting, but it kind of feels like the author was too busy being clever and forgot to put an actual game in there...

I think this sums up the game perfectly.  

 

BITD I was working on designing my own CRPG which in my mind would fix the shortcomings of the existing CRPGs.   I got pulled way down the technical rabbit hole where I was designing open-ended systems that could handle any RPG situation I could think of.   I had graphics and maps,  but I didn't have a story..   just a few story points that I'd figure I'd eventually flesh out into a story.    In the meantime I kept getting more technical ideas and soon the whole thing became overwhelming and I never finished the project.

 

If I'd started with a story and built the tech needed to support that, I'd be much better off than designing an open-ended system that could handle anything...

 

I feel like that's the trap the AR designers fell into.   They were so focused on the tech and production values..  (the stuff that should have came last, not first), the game itself was lacking.   I also read in wikipedia that Dungeon was supposed to be part of the City,  but Datasoft forced a release of the City probably because it was taking too long.  

[scottinNH]

The City shares almost nothing with The Matrix, except tangental themes like being in a closed environment.

 

However The City shares almost everything with Dark City (1998). You and others are being studied (not merely batteries/prisoners), on a ship traveling away from Earth, your world IS real/tangible (not VR). These are just off the top of my head.

Edited December 2, 2022 by scottinNH

[Xebec's Demise]

On 11/18/2022 at 10:03 PM, NorbertP said:

I always wanted to like this game, but of the handful of RPGs I played back in the day - U3, Temple of Apshai, Bard's Tale 3 whenever I visited my C64 owning friend, and AR - I have to confess that AR was the one I enjoyed the least by quite a margin. I guess by modern standards Temple of Apshai barely counts as an RPG but I used to play the heck out of it, I was a little unclear what the goal was in U3 I still enjoyed wandering around murdering orcs and skeletons and always felt like I was achieving something even if I did very little to progress the plot, and I always really wished BT3 was available on the A8, but AR did nothing for me: I probably got far more enjoyment out of the opening graphics than I did from actually playing it.

 

I thought it was maybe because I was just a dumb kid with a dumb kid brain at the time, but every attempt to revisit it in the decades since hasn't done anything to change my opinion: technically impressive but aesthetically unpleasant and monotonous visuals combined with opaque gameplay mechanics and no clear sense of any kind of direction inevitably leads to a a combination of boredom, frustration, and confusion. I'm sure in terms of mechanics it's all very in depth and ground-breaking and whatever, and maybe the concept is interesting, but it kind of feels like the author was too busy being clever and forgot to put an actual game in there...

On 11/21/2022 at 9:53 AM, zzip said:

I think this sums up the game perfectly.  

 

BITD I was working on designing my own CRPG which in my mind would fix the shortcomings of the existing CRPGs.   I got pulled way down the technical rabbit hole where I was designing open-ended systems that could handle any RPG situation I could think of.   I had graphics and maps,  but I didn't have a story..   just a few story points that I'd figure I'd eventually flesh out into a story.    In the meantime I kept getting more technical ideas and soon the whole thing became overwhelming and I never finished the project.

 

If I'd started with a story and built the tech needed to support that, I'd be much better off than designing an open-ended system that could handle anything...

 

I feel like that's the trap the AR designers fell into.   They were so focused on the tech and production values..  (the stuff that should have came last, not first), the game itself was lacking.   I also read in wikipedia that Dungeon was supposed to be part of the City,  but Datasoft forced a release of the City probably because it was taking too long.  

I'm disappointed in you, zzip. I thought we were having an honest discussion until now. When you didn't dispute my response to you that Alternate Reality and Ultima IV offer two very different types of gameplay and that different people prefer different types of gameplay, I felt we found some common ground of agreement, even though we like different types of games. From your adamant dislike of Alternate Reality: The City and love of Ultima IV it appears you're clearly the type of person that prefers to be told what to do in your games and led along a storyline to an end; preferring completing quests that are predefined for you in games that you can eventually complete and put back on your shelf. I seriously doubt it's really much of a shock to you, but I prefer doing my own thing, setting my own goals and testing my skills at surviving in open-ended virtual world type games and so do many millions of others, especially in modern games today. Alternate Reality was way ahead of it's time with regard to gameplay, but decades later some of the top games in the world today are now very similar to Alternate Reality; open-ended survival-type virtual worlds which cannot be 'completed' in any real sense and which have very little to no storyline nor questing required at all.

 

Prior to you now claiming that @NorbertP summed up Alternate Reality "perfectly" with his dishonest, exaggerated claims there's no "actual game" in Alternate Reality and that its visuals are "aesthetically unpleasant and monotonous" compared to Ultima III and Temple of Apshai, you even admitted yourself that Alternate Reality, "made excellent use of Music, animation, DLI color washes," that "AR :The City certainly nailed the presentation & music," and that "The intro was something to behold.  Nobody did that kind of thing better in 1985." So, if NorbertP summed up the game "perfectly," were your initial statements on Alternate reality false?

 

Let's at least get some facts straight. Unlike NorbetP's dishonest and absurd opinion, Alternate Reality is in fact a "game" and is in fact a game that many people like, have a lot of fun playing and greatly appreciate. You two may not realize and therefore not appreciate all the innovative features of Alternate Reality nor like the gameplay yourself, but that doesn't mean there's not an "actual game" in Alternate Reality. It is in fact a game and it's a highly regarded game for many.

 

When you say, "AR designers," you still don't realize it was just one original person that designed the game, Philip Price? The only "trap" he fell into was signing a very bad contract with the drugged up crooks at Datasoft who made millions from his game and didn't pay him, claiming that the cost of all the conversion expenses for all the other systems Datasoft wanted to port the game to would have to be paid before he received any royalties. This forced him to find employment elsewhere, leaving behind the game he designed and created. Philip was clearly taken advantage of by Datasoft. From everything I know about him, he appears to be a very private, humble person that avoids conflict and doesn't seek very much recognition or attention; truly the opposite of Ultima IV's designer, Richard Garriott for a relevant comparison.

 

Philip also did code an actual Dungeon expansion to The City and Datasoft "lost" it, hiring their own team of coders to make their own version of the Dungeon, which was basically a Frankenstein monster pieced together from Philip's ideas, concepts and code from The City game and very likely Philip's Dungeon that they "lost." A clearly recognizable example of how little thought or care was put into the design of the Datasoft Dungeon is that the intro for their version of the Dungeon is basically just a hacked up copy of the original abduction intro for The City, with the exception of new music and a poorly rendered "space ship" that looks more like a monastery. It doesn't even make sense to have you re-abducted from Earth for The Dungeon because when entering The Dungeon from The City you've already been abducted and you're already in an Alternate Reality. So, they clearly put very little care or thought into the game. Instead of a seamless Dungeon expansion like Philip created and wanted, Datasoft basically turned it into a separate incompatible game at his expense, regressing to more conventional and basic quest driven gameplay to complete and be done with, the very type of gameplay you prefer, but also making the game far less mysterious and far less of a an open-ended virtual world challenge to survive. So, I can definitely understand if you prefer The Dungeon. You say The City game itself was lacking for you, but that's probably simply because you prefer to be told what to do in games and to follow a predefined storyline to its end, as explained previously and you don't appear to like open-ended virtual worlds, but you should at least admit and recognize that many other people do and that these type of games have become popular today.

 

I'm also disappointed to hear you claim that gave up on your open-ended game simply because you felt it had to have a story, when it truly doesn't. From your description it sounds like it would be an amazing game for me and modern gamers alike. We don't need quests and we don't need a story because we create our own quests and stories given a great virtual world sandbox to do that in. You giving up on your game, if you truly did, merely because you felt it should have had a predefined story in the end to keep you focused is quite the hangup. It makes me wonder if you just made that up to try to make a point? What was your game called and where can I see some of the work you did on it?

Edited December 8, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[Goochman]

Ill throw my $0.02 here.  I owned and played both BITD and loved both.  U4 is a masterpiece in terms of scale and storyline beyond what was previously done.  There is a story - you dont have to follow the story but you wont accomplish becoming an Avatar which is the goal of the game.  U3 to me is not a great game and doesnt compare to AR or anything else.  Ill leave it at that.

 

AR The City was truly something new - besides being a dungeon crawler there were side effects for almost every action in the game.  The graphics were very rich for a 3D game and options endless.  But, the City was open ended on purpose cause the follow on  modules were to complete the story.  Its like U4 without being able to go in the Dungeons.  AR The Dungeon did give you some ending and I actually like it better than the City.  Graphics wise it was better than the City.

 

I think both have their charms and values - Im surprised anyone would really knock either as being terrible for when they were released.

[zzip]

11 minutes ago, Xebec's Demise said:

'm disappointed in you, zzip. I thought we were having an honest discussion until now. When you didn't dispute my response to you that Alternate Reality and Ultima IV offer two very different types of gameplay and that different people prefer different types of gameplay, I felt we found some common ground of agreement, even though we like different types of games. From your adamant dislike of Alternate Reality: The City and love of Ultima IV it appears you're clearly the type of person that prefers to be told what to do in your games and led along a storyline to an end; preferring completing quests that are predefined for you in games that you can eventually complete and put back on your shelf. I seriously doubt it's really much of a shock to you, but I prefer doing my own thing, setting my own goals and testing my skills at surviving in open-ended virtual world type games and so do many millions of others, especially in modern games today. Alternate Reality was way ahead of it's time with regard to gameplay, but decades later some of the top games in the world today are now very similar to Alternate Reality; open-ended survival-type virtual worlds which cannot be 'completed' in any real sense and which have very little to no questing or storyline required at all.

I love a good survival game, however all evidence points to Alternate Reality is an unfinished RPG that turned into a survival game simply because there's not much else to do.   You could easily play Ultima or any other RPG as survival games by ignoring the quests and just try to survive the endless hordes of monsters that come after you while scrounging for supplies.  I don't consider that forward thinking, it's just a side-effect of any half-decent RPG system where you have a bunch of stats to manage.

 

19 minutes ago, Xebec's Demise said:

you even admitted yourself that Alternate Reality, "made excellent use of Music, animation, DLI color washes," that "AR :The City certainly nailed the presentation & music," and that "The intro was something to behold.  Nobody did that kind of thing better in 1985."

I stand by that.   The Presentation around the game is top notch.   But when you start playing the game itself...   it's lackluster.

 

22 minutes ago, Xebec's Demise said:

When you say, "AR designers," you still don't realize it was just one original person that designed the game, Philip Price? The only "trap" he fell into was signing a very bad contract with the drugged up crooks at Datasoft who made millions from his game and didn't pay him, claiming that the cost of all the conversion expenses for all the other systems Datasoft wanted to port the game to would have to be paid before he received any royalties. This forced him to find employment elsewhere, leaving behind the game he designed and created. Philip was clearly taken advantage of by Datasoft. From everything I know about him, he appears to be a very private, humble person that avoids conflict and doesn't seek very much recognition or attention; truly the opposite of Ultima IV's designer, Richard Garriott for a relevant comparison.

I'm not judging Philip Price or the game that could have been if not for the publisher,  I'm judging the game we actually got.  

 

Incidentally Richard Garriott has issues with his publisher too,  but he started his own company Origin so that he could have full control for Ultima III on.

 

 

 

 

[zzip]

11 minutes ago, Goochman said:

U3 to me is not a great game and doesnt compare to AR or anything else.  Ill leave it at that.

U3 was the most complex CRPG I had played up to that point,  so I loved it at first...  but the game's formula quickly got old and I was so done with it by the time I got to the end.   Never replayed it.

 

I was reluctant to even play U4 at first because of U3.   But saw someone else playing it and I noticed it fixed many of the shortcomings of U3,  so I got my own copy and enjoyed it.

[Xebec's Demise]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

I love a good survival game, however all evidence points to Alternate Reality is an unfinished RPG that turned into a survival game simply because there's not much else to do.   You could easily play Ultima or any other RPG as survival games by ignoring the quests and just try to survive the endless hordes of monsters that come after you while scrounging for supplies.  I don't consider that forward thinking, it's just a side-effect of any half-decent RPG system where you have a bunch of stats to manage.

You certainly could not "easily" play Ultima or any other RPG as a survival game if you cannot play Alternate Reality: The City as one. That's a fairly extreme and absurd self-contradiction you're trying to make.

 

The City was particularly and specifically designed as a survival game and hub for developing your character and other RPGs were not. If you find The City gameplay "lackluster" as a survival game when it was specifically designed with very advanced survival type features that no other games of the time ever had, some not even seen in many survival games even to this day, such as blood alcohol levels, disease incubation times, neural and blood poisoning, intoxication and physical loss of control of your character, delusion resulting in a false sense of ability with misrepresented stats, progressive thirst, hunger, tiredness and sleep quality, which all affect your stats and performance, body temperature affected by clothing, real-time weather, time of day and seasons, use-based skill development, haggling and reputation with npcs, npc operating times, variable npc inventories and pricing, interest rates and bank failures, very realistic irreversible alignment based upon your actions, surprise, noticeability and dapper stats affecting encounters and how npcs react to you based upon your skills and physical appearance within the game world and even a speed stat which physically determines how fast you can actually move within the game world.

 

Either you're just entirely ignorant of all the game's advanced survival features, or you're just plainly dishonest to suggest that any old RPG game, not even intended to be a survival game, could just as "easily" be a survival game as Alternate Reality.

 

I'm leaning towards dishonest since you conveniently failed to answer one of the most interesting questions I had for you. What was your open-ended game called and where can we see some of your work from the game?

 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[Xebec's Demise]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:45 AM, scottinNH said:

The City shares almost nothing with The Matrix, except tangental themes like being in a closed environment.

 

However The City shares almost everything with Dark City (1998). You and others are being studied (not merely batteries/prisoners), on a ship traveling away from Earth, your world IS real/tangible (not VR). These are just off the top of my head.

Isn't the main theme of both Alternate Reality and The Matrix that you discover your mind has been involuntarily placed within a virtual reality?

 

Did you not see this post here and the article I linked to quoting Philip Price?

Edited December 9, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[_The Doctor__]

You gotta love it, Alternate Reality was the wellspring for just about everything that came after. In contrast most folks when asked about Lord British remember rubbazor wars and Origin with less intensity. Always a debate, but one Philip Price was the man, and folks are still amazed with all that was packed into Alternate reality. When it's music plays, we are all transported to a better time with our home computers.

[zzip]

16 hours ago, Xebec's Demise said:

You certainly could not "easily" play Ultima or any other RPG as a survival game if you cannot play Alternate Reality: The City as one. That's a fairly extreme and absurd self-contradiction you're trying to make.

My point is 'survival' is emergent gameplay out of any RPG system where you have stats to maintain.    An RPG game without a goal becomes a survival game by default, because what else do you do?    So the claim that AR: The City was being forward looking by being survival-oriented just sounds like excuse-making for an unfinished game.

 

The back of the box promises a goal.   It says nothing about surviving for the sake of surviving. 

 

16 hours ago, Xebec's Demise said:

The City was particularly and specifically designed as a survival game and hub for developing your character and other RPGs were not. If you find The City gameplay "lackluster" as a survival game when it was specifically designed with very advanced survival type features that no other games of the time ever had, some not even seen in many survival games even to this day, such as blood alcohol levels, disease incubation times, neural and blood poisoning, intoxication and physical loss of control of your character, delusion resulting in a false sense of ability with misrepresented stats, progressive thirst, hunger, tiredness and sleep quality, which all affect your stats and performance, body temperature affected by clothing, real-time weather, time of day and seasons, use-based skill development, haggling and reputation with npcs, npc operating times, variable npc inventories and pricing, interest rates and bank failures, very realistic irreversible alignment based upon your actions, surprise, noticeability and dapper stats affecting encounters and how npcs react to you based upon your skills and physical appearance within the game world and even a speed stat which physically determines how fast you can actually move within the game world.

 

Either you're just entirely ignorant of all the game's advanced survival features, or you're just plainly dishonest to suggest that any old RPG game, not even intended to be a survival game, could just as "easily" be a survival game as Alternate Reality.

For each stat you add, it creates a ton more work implementing the logic and visual effects to bring them to life,  and this is a trap that's easy to fall into, spending so much time adding features to the engine and not enough time working on the actual gameplay.   There's also the player to consider.   Does clothing/body temperature really enhance the game for players?  Or become a nuisance to worry about?  Too hot, have to change clothes,  oh but what about dirty laundry?  ah we've added a dirty laundry stat and places to go wash...  it's time consuming because you have to wash by hand and hang to dry--  see it never ends?  There's always one more real world thing you can add to the game system.   

 

In AD&D, I've seen players and DMs routinely ignore certain stats because they were a nuisance to deal with.  The same thing holds computer games,  the stat needs to be gameplay enhancing and not a drag on the game.   That's why modern survival games don't implement all those stats.   And for AR, we are talking about 8-bit systems with limited RAM 64Kb-  that's an awful lot of things to keep track of! 

 

The right way to do this is to map out the game first, decide on the scope,  and then implement only the systems that are actually needed instead of "wouldn't it be cool if we added X?"   yes you may need to make some painful cuts,  but maybe it's better for the game, or for meeting your publishing timelines.   You can always add those cool features to a future game.

 

That's the approach Ultima took.   Akalabeth, U1, etc were fairly weak, but each built up on the previous and added new features.   It took until U4 (fith game counting Akalabeth) to hit "masterpiece" status.   Seems like AR was shooting for that on the first try and fell way short.   

 

18 hours ago, Xebec's Demise said:

I'm leaning towards dishonest since you conveniently failed to answer one of the most interesting questions I had for you. What was your open-ended game called and where can we see some of your work from the game?

 

I posted it in this thread a couple years back:    It's some of the components of the ST version of the game system, unfortunately I lost the original code I did on the Atari 8-bit

 

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Return to Earth 'or' seek revenge on your abductors. Seems like your survival is indeed revenge on the abductors.

[Xebec's Demise]

23 hours ago, Goochman said:

Ill throw my $0.02 here.  I owned and played both BITD and loved both.  U4 is a masterpiece in terms of scale and storyline beyond what was previously done.  There is a story - you dont have to follow the story but you wont accomplish becoming an Avatar which is the goal of the game.  U3 to me is not a great game and doesnt compare to AR or anything else.  Ill leave it at that.

 

AR The City was truly something new - besides being a dungeon crawler there were side effects for almost every action in the game.  The graphics were very rich for a 3D game and options endless.  But, the City was open ended on purpose cause the follow on  modules were to complete the story.  Its like U4 without being able to go in the Dungeons.  AR The Dungeon did give you some ending and I actually like it better than the City.  Graphics wise it was better than the City.

 

I think both have their charms and values - Im surprised anyone would really knock either as being terrible for when they were released.

I really liked Ultima IV too and I like most RPG games in general, but you probably wouldn't be surprised to hear that my favorite by far of the Ultima series is Ultima Online. Ultima Online took everything to the next level and therefore became one of my favorite games of all time. And that is the same way I felt about Alternate Reality: The City when I first played it too. Like many people, I had played most of the popular RPGs including Ultima IV before I had ever even heard of Alternate Reality. So, when I first played Alternate Reality I was blown away that this hidden gem of a game was out there and I'd never even heard of it before. The City truly took RPGs to the next level too, not only with graphics, sound and music, but all kinds of incredibly realistic gameplay features I'd never seen before in any other RPGs. It's certainly a largely overlooked and ignored masterpiece of RPG history.

 

I truly don't understand why there are so many haters of Alternate Reality either, I suppose it's mostly due to bias, ignorance, inexperience or resentment of one form or another.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[Xebec's Demise]

21 hours ago, zzip said:

My point is 'survival' is emergent gameplay out of any RPG system where you have stats to maintain.    An RPG game without a goal becomes a survival game by default, because what else do you do?    So the claim that AR: The City was being forward looking by being survival-oriented just sounds like excuse-making for an unfinished game.

 

The back of the box promises a goal.   It says nothing about surviving for the sake of surviving. 

 

For each stat you add, it creates a ton more work implementing the logic and visual effects to bring them to life,  and this is a trap that's easy to fall into, spending so much time adding features to the engine and not enough time working on the actual gameplay.   There's also the player to consider.   Does clothing/body temperature really enhance the game for players?  Or become a nuisance to worry about?  Too hot, have to change clothes,  oh but what about dirty laundry?  ah we've added a dirty laundry stat and places to go wash...  it's time consuming because you have to wash by hand and hang to dry--  see it never ends?  There's always one more real world thing you can add to the game system.   

 

In AD&D, I've seen players and DMs routinely ignore certain stats because they were a nuisance to deal with.  The same thing holds computer games,  the stat needs to be gameplay enhancing and not a drag on the game.   That's why modern survival games don't implement all those stats.   And for AR, we are talking about 8-bit systems with limited RAM 64Kb-  that's an awful lot of things to keep track of! 

 

The right way to do this is to map out the game first, decide on the scope,  and then implement only the systems that are actually needed instead of "wouldn't it be cool if we added X?"   yes you may need to make some painful cuts,  but maybe it's better for the game, or for meeting your publishing timelines.   You can always add those cool features to a future game.

 

That's the approach Ultima took.   Akalabeth, U1, etc were fairly weak, but each built up on the previous and added new features.   It took until U4 (fith game counting Akalabeth) to hit "masterpiece" status.   Seems like AR was shooting for that on the first try and fell way short.   

 

I posted it in this thread a couple years back:    It's some of the components of the ST version of the game system, unfortunately I lost the original code I did on the Atari 8-bit

 

 

 

I liked your post because you finally answered me and provided some information on your attempt at an open-ended game. So, I'm glad to see you weren't just entirely making that up as a way to try to bolster your criticisms of Alternate Reality.

 

I feel like this shouldn't have to be said, but since you're continuing to grasp at fairly flimsy assumptions to criticize Alternate Realty maybe it does. The way to figure out the genre of any game is simply ask yourself what the primary challenge or activity of a game is. In the case of a survival game, it's simply surviving. So, if you take a game like Ultima IV, it's clearly not a survival game even though it does have minor elements of survival games, like "stats to maintain," as most games do. Whereas, if you take a game like Alternate Reality: The City the primary challenge and activity is clearly surviving all of it's deeply survival focused game systems, like hunger, thirst, disease, tiredness, poisons, delusions, inebriation, curses and extreme threats to your resources and life around every corner of the city.

 

At this point, you're playing very fast and loose with your definitions and terms to imprecisely and generically claim all RPGs with stats to maintain are "survival" games, even when I specifically defined for you many of the unique and complex survival focused game systems that set Alternate Reality: The City apart from other RPGs and truly make it a game deeply focused on survival. If you wanted to get even more careless with your terms and definitions you might claim that all games where you have to avoid death and try to survive are "survival" games, even Pac-Man. Again, what obviously defines a game as a survival game is a depth and focus on survival systems over and above all else. Alternate Reality: The City has an absolute focus on intricate and deep survival systems, like no other game before nor after it for quite some time and I detailed many of them for you.

 

As for the intent of the City, it was absolutely specifically designed for survival and development of your character and Philip Price has said so. A survival game doesn't have to have the word "survival" on the box for it to be a survival game, that should be obvious too. The box literally states that the goal of The City is to "improve yourself physically, mentally, morally, and financially," in other words, that means your overall goal for The City is simply learning to survive and developing your character, that's it. The ultimate goal of returning to Earth or seeking revenge on your abductors is also clearly stated as the goal for the entire series, not The City. You just directly provided information contradicting your claims, apparently without realizing it.

 

But, if you insist on seeing the word "survive" regarding The City somewhere in order to believe, here's the word directly from the developer himself, Philip Price:

 

"So I wanted both an initial shock and survive part(aka The City) in what was meant to feel like an alive world" - Philip Price

 

Regarding game systems, yes, you can fall into a trap of adding unnecessary stats and features, overcomplicating things, especially if those features don't support the main challenge or objective for your game. However, this is not the case with Alternate Reality: The City, all of the complex survival systems specifically and masterfully focus on the objective of The City, which is survival, making it extremely challenging and fun to try to survive. See, the only problem here in this discussion is that you're continually failing to acknowledge or recognize that the objective or goal of The City actually is survival, so to you all the complex survival systems appear overcomplicated and pointless. That's a failure on your part, not the game's.

 

If you truly do "love a good survival game," then you should finally recognize The City for what it is and play it as the survival game it was designed to be and stop bemoaning that there's no quests or story for you to complete, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with numerous unfounded assumptions.

 

Since you prefer to have goals set for you, I challenge you to create a character with the goal of simply surviving without any cheats or backups and enter it into our competition here:

 

Atari Age Alternate Reality: The City Competition

 

If you love survival games, it's about time you finally play Alternate Reality: The City as one.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Xebec's Demise

[zzip]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:13 AM, Xebec's Demise said:

I feel like this shouldn't have to be said, but since you're continuing to grasp at fairly flimsy assumptions to criticize Alternate Realty maybe it does. The way to figure out the genre of any game is simply ask yourself what the primary challenge or activity of a game is. In the case of a survival game, it's simply surviving. So, if you take a game like Ultima IV, it's clearly not a survival game even though it does have minor elements of survival games, like "stats to maintain," as most games do. Whereas, if you take a game like Alternate Reality: The City the primary challenge and activity is clearly surviving all of it's deeply survival focused game systems, like hunger, thirst, disease, tiredness, poisons, delusions, inebriation, curses and extreme threats to your resources and life around every corner of the city.

 

At this point, you're playing very fast and loose with your definitions and terms to imprecisely and generically claim all RPGs with stats to maintain are "survival" games, even when I specifically defined for you many of the unique and complex survival focused game systems that set Alternate Reality: The City apart from other RPGs and truly make it a game deeply focused on survival. If you wanted to get even more careless with your terms and definitions you might claim that all games where you have to avoid death and try to survive are "survival" games, even Pac-Man. Again, what obviously defines a game as a survival game is a depth and focus on survival systems over and above all else. Alternate Reality: The City has an absolute focus on intricate and deep survival systems, like no other game before nor after it for quite some time and I detailed many of them for you.

You are the one playing fast and loose with the terms.   I have never heard AR called a survival game before.   Everything labels it an RPG with objectives

 

https://www.mobygames.com/game/alternate-reality-the-city

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality:_The_City

The back of the game box says there are objectives,  it just neglects to tell you that those objects are resolved in a future expansion, which is deceptive.   The dungeon was supposed to be part of the city.   That would have been an improvement.  But whatever went down between the author and publisher turned that into an expansion.

 

It's revisionist to call it an ahead of its time survival game.   Everything points to it being an unfinished RPG, and there's objective evidence for this, such as the pile of planned expansions that never saw that light of day.

 

My only point about RPG vs survival is that once you add stat systems that need to be maintained and upgraded then you can play it as a survival game..   kill monsters, heal wounds, eat, upgrade your stuff, buy/build better stuff, repeat the next day.    Pacman isn't the same,  there's no stats,  no hunger bar, no hit points, you're either dead or your not- but at a basic level, sure the objective is to survive.   With AR, the objectives were never implemented so there was nothing to do but go through a survival loop.   Of course many buyers were lead to believe there was more to it than that and many of the contemporary reviews reflect that.

 

A modern analogy would be "No Man's Sky".  Extremely ambitious game,  an entire universe to explore full of unique creatures, all procedural generated.   Every planet's surface looks like the cover of a sci-fi novel.   But when the game released in 2016, it got roundly criticized by almost everyone.  It too was a survival game-  collect materials to survive, and upgrade your stuff, sell things for money to buy a better space ship, and take photos of the pretty planets -    and repeat that endlessly.    There was no real game there and people quickly grew tired of it.   It didn't matter that it was doing things that had never been done before,  it just wasn't much fun.   

 

But the difference is No Man's Sky actually released their expansions.  Lots of them.   New players are overwhelmed by how much there is to do.   It now gets lots praise as the best comeback in gaming history.  It's still an open-ended survival game, not objective-based  but it's more fun simply because there's so many things you can do.

 

Alternate Reality- same thing overly ambitious-- too focused on making the technical aspects amazing, not focused enough on making the gameplay fun and compelling.

 

On 12/10/2022 at 9:13 AM, Xebec's Demise said:

But, if you insist on seeing the word "survive" regarding The City somewhere in order to believe, here's the word directly from the developer himself, Philip Price:

 

"So I wanted both an initial shock and survive part(aka The City) in what was meant to feel like an alive world" - Philip Price

That's 2013.  Again that sounds like revisionism since that's not how the game was sold to us in 85

 

On 12/10/2022 at 9:13 AM, Xebec's Demise said:

f you truly do "love a good survival game," then you should finally recognize The City for what it is and play it as the survival game it was designed to be and stop bemoaning that there's no quests or story for you to complete, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with numerous unfounded assumptions.

 

Since you prefer to have goals set for you, I challenge you to create a character with the goal of simply surviving without any cheats or backups and enter it into our competition here:

I never said I needed objectives, that's your assumption.    I've always said the game world of the City is dull, it's like wandering a non-descript maze.   That wouldn't be more fun even with objectives.

[_The Doctor__]

Getting out alive seems like an objective and kind of self explanatory, doing so is satisfying. Don't understand the impasse!

[+CharlieChaplin]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:26 PM, _The Doctor__ said:

Return to Earth 'or' seek revenge on your abductors. Seems like your survival is indeed revenge on the abductors.

 

Both options would have been possible... if the game series had been finished...

 

"Alternate Reality: An Overview (June 22, 1996)

Again, early spring 1983... I am asked by Marsten Systems Corporation to write
an overview of each episode in the Alternate Reality story. Here you have an
early printout of that, complete with a few typos etc. This is truly the most
descriptive document in existence regarding all of the episodes and their
relationship to each other.  Gary Gilbertson

 

ALTERNATE REALITY the series

Alternate Reality will be a series of disk based
entertainment programs for Atari Home Computers.
They will require at least 48k to operate.
Each installment of the series will feature:

Joystick controlled scrolling 3D Hi Res Graphics
Keyboard command/control
Sound effects and Original Music

 

Alternate Reality is a Fantasy Role Playing Game. Every month role playing games
seem to increase in popularity. They also tend to stay on the charts much longer
than arcade type shootemups. Role Playing Games that were introduced years ago
can still be found on the best seller lists. Traditionally these games have been
classified into two major groups. There are the ones that concentrate on
graphics to create the illusion of believeability. The others see fit to weave
their magic by supplying the adventurer with an extensive array of spells,
monsters and weaponary via the printed word. These are sometimes called text
adventures. Apparently the reason for these games falling into one category or
another has been the fact that their creators have felt home computers are not
powerful enough to handle both types of programming. Alternate Reality will
shatter that idea and set standards of excellence in both simultaneously. As if
this were not enough, it moves out even further and incorporates the computer's
sound capabilities and offers up original music that moves in and out of the
game play in order to establish an even stronger total illusion. As indicated
above, Alternate Reality is a series of games. Although you must have the
initial installment, (The City), in order to play the rest of the series, it
isn't necessary to purchase the entire set. After buying "The City", you could
wait until "The Wilderness", (installment #5) was released; buy it and access it
from your City disk without owning the other segments. It should be noted,
however, that the later episodes of Alternate Reality will be much more
enjoyable with a higher level character. The easiest way to build such a
character is to experience the series as it is released.

 

ALTERNATE REALITY The Scenario...

Below in order are the various segments to the series along with a brief
explanation of the goals and storyline in each.

 

#1 Alternate Reality...THE CITY

The City is the first in the series and the one that is required in order to
access any further segment.

Storm clouds begin to gather over a large urban center on earty. No sooner have
they formed but they begin to part in a most unnatural fashion. Descending to a
point beneath this cloud appears an alien spaccraft. While hovering over a
cityscape the aliens proceed to abduct various people on the surface by beaming
them up to their ship. It so happens that you are one of these people. Your
personal experience in Alternate Reality will begin after your abduction. Your
first conscious thought finds you in front of an opalescent portal, in a room
that affords no other exit. Above this doorway you see controls of various
colors displaying ever changing numbers. Although you shall retain the memories
of your home planet the speeding digits overhead will freeze at the moment you
pass through the portal. It will be as if you were dealt a new hand in life. You
might find yourself stronger or wiser. Whatever it may be, this is the
framkework within which you will have to interact with the other life forms
within Alternate Reality. As you move about the City, (via joystick control),
you will undoubtably notice the variety of shops and stores. You will be able to
purchase goods and services at these establishments. Additionally you may be
surprised to see the sun rise and set each day. In order to survive you can take
on work at various places. Your life in the city will revolve around learning
its value in helping you get the most out of the rest of the installments. In
addition, there is a prize redeemable in the real world hidden within its walls.

 

#2 Alternate Reality...THE DUNGEON

Shortly after the release of "The City", The Dungeon will be available.

Beneath the city lies a world shrouded in mystery. A place that ffeeds off the
terror and fear it serves to those who would venture there. Dark damp
passageways where rounding a corner could result in a confrontation with the
thing nightmares are made of. This realm should be explored for two reasons. It
affords you experience in character building and contains treasure of every
description. Returning to The City after a foray through the depths, you'll have
an opportunity to use your new wealth and power to further your position in the
community while gaining insight to the true secrets of Alternate Reality.

 

#3 Alternate Reality...THE ARENA

This episode will mark a new dimension in the series. Until now the graphics
have presented a characters eye-view of things. The Arena allows you to both
see and control yourself in actual combat.

Many times in the City you've passed by the great arena. You've heard the
trumpet fanfares and the cheers from the crowd. Like most beings in the city,
the Great Arena has been off limits to you in the past. Now you have a chance to
enter. Do not, however, begin this enterprise with a low level character. I say
this because you enter not as a spectator but rather as a combatant. Should you
survive your first contest you will have an opportunity to mingle with the
martial scholars living within the Great Arena. As a group they have spent more
time in Alternate Reality than most anyone. It is said they have answers to
questions you haven't even thought to pose. Learning new techniques and gaining
fighting experience in the arena will enable one to garner even greater rewards
in the dungeons below the city.

 

#4 Alternate Reality...THE PALACE

Back again to an eye view episode. This time you'll take your high level
character to the pinnacles of city life. Your wisdom and wealth will take on new
meaning as you enter the realm of the nobility.

Until now you have been a nomadic citizen of sorts. You've roamed the city
streets and the dungeons below. You've taken shelter when and where you could.

If you found treasures too heavy or valuable to keep on your person, you've had
to intrust its safe keeping to one of the local banking institutions. Now for
the first time you are to be granted noble status. You will be allowed access to
the castle and other establishments reserved for the upper class. In addition
you will be allowed to purchase property within the city itself. This is to say
when darkness comes and your fatigue level is high, you can return to your own
home. Therein you'll be able to store the fruits of your efforts. While your
social standing in the city continues to grow, you will find yourself ready and
able to begin an adventure that reminds you of desires that filled your thoughts
during your first days in the city...  You make plans to leave it.

 

#5 Alternate Reality...THE WILDERNESS

Again eye-view 3D graphics. The first installment that allows you to venture
great distances from the city.

Excitement is in the air as you prepare to leave the city for the first time.
You look around your house deciding what to leave and what to bring. As you walk
to the city gate memories race through your mind as fast as familiar sights pass
your view. Once outside the walls you stop a moment and reflect on the view
ahead. So often you have wanted to venture towards the mountains, this time you
can. Soon you've traveled far enough so that the city can no longer be seen
during quick glances to the rear. You commend yourself for having taken the time
to map the direction of your progress. You travel through and over a large
variety of terrain features ranging from thick forests to hot dry deserts. You
encounter a number of beings. Many of them have very interesting things to tell
you. Many of them have yet to utter a civil thing in their life. When you
finally reach the mountains themselves, you find them to be extremely steep and
virtually impossible to climb. You find yourself moving along the base of the
mountain searching for...anything.

SO THIS IS THE END?.. A STONEWALL IN THE MOUNTAINS!

A number of adventurers will find cave systems in the mountains. Here encounters
and treasures will point ever closer to the answers they seek. Some adventurers
will find reaching the mountains requires a bit of seamanship. For you see the
mountains they seek rises from the center of an island. Once on the island they
may find a solid metallic barrier set in bedrock... a barrier, opalescent in
color...

 

#6 Alternate Reality...REVELATION

3D Graphics

Having succeeded in passing the metallic barrier, the adventurer is shocked as
he stands facing another but two meters in front of him. it is not, the impact
of a new barrier that he finds unsettling. It is not, that to his left and right
long hallways seem to stretch to infinity that disturbs him. He is in awe of the
fact that everything he sees appears to be from another place. Another
technology. Everything in his view has been constructed with materials that
remind him of that first day when he stood before the portal. Wherever he is, he
knows he feels closer to Earth. His journey down the hallway seems endless.
Numerous times he stops to rest and wonder if taking the hallway to the right
was in fact the wrong thing to do. Just when he was about to head back and try
the other direction, he notices a window on the left wall up ahead. He
approaches and looks out. At this point he has his second and by far biggest
shock of the day. The window shows him stars and deep space. Just as he was
convincing himself that he was seeing nothing but a fancy diarama, an object
that was unmistakably some kind of shuttle vehicle moved past the window. He
began to realize something that seemed impossible to believe, The world he had
been living ON, he had in fact been living IN...

T H E    E N D "

 

[+CharlieChaplin]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:12 AM, Xebec's Demise said:

Isn't the main theme of both Alternate Reality and The Matrix that you discover your mind has been involuntarily placed within a virtual reality?

 

Did you not see this post here and the article I linked to quoting Philip Price?

 

There is more to it... 

 

"Alternate Reality" and "The Matrix"...

 

Part 1: Alternate Reality: The Video Game
In 1983 a video game was released that would change gaming forever.
In 1999, a movie was released that changed movies forever. Was it a
coincidence, or are they somehow related?

 

Nobody can be Told what Alternate Reality Is. You're kidnapped. Sucked
out of your apartment as you're getting ready to leave for the day by
some sort of alien beam. You remember waiting endless hours, maybe
days on a strange ship as it hurtles through space. You pass out. The
next thing you remember is waking up in front of a giant archway with
numbers scrolling across the top like a giant slot machine. When you
walk through, those numbers freeze in place. You wander the streets of
The City for days, trying to survive. Some things are the same as back
at home - you can walk into a bar and make friends, put your money in
the bank, and haggle with the store owners. The sunsets are stunning,
and there's a waterfall in the distance that intrigues you. But some
things are different. You're aware that the colors here aren't like they
are back home, and in the back of your mind you're still aware of those
numbers. Magic works here! You can get flaming magical swords and even
learn to cast spells. Then you discover a secret - a smooth plastic
access card that doesn't belong in this world and gives you access to
the fourth level of the Dungeon via a secret elevator. Robots and Aliens
wander these metallic corridors, and you find a control room with
surveillance equipment.

 

Months later you forget about the aliens and the control room, you've
gained status by fighting in the Arena, and even own land now in
The City. You've even been invited to The Palace, but The Wilderness
still calls you. You want to see that Waterfall. Hidden in the depths of
a cave behind the immense waterfall that can be seen even from the city
is a metallic door requiring a pass card to enter. Once open it reveals
corridors gleaming with technology far beyond our own. Further
investigation reveals a room that has immense windows/portals and a
view, a view into space. Searching further this immense ship you discover
a chamber filled with metal cocoons. Using wit and knowledge gained
through other locations you decipher the controls and the display. You
learn that these cocoons hold bodies, the bodies of all of those captured.
The machines keep the bodies physically alive and fit, but imprisoned.
The minds of those entrapped are tapped and fed with images. The ships
computer can even permit the images to interact with solid/material
components of the ship. You are an image. What is reality? Your body
lies in a cocoon. Your mind sees what the image sees. What is a soul?
What is experience? You experience, you feel what this image you have
been controlling since you kidnapping feels.

 

This isn't the plot for the next Matrix installment where you explore
an earlier fantasy version of The Matrix, it's the plot for a video game
that first came out in 1984. Alternate Reality was conceived, designed,
and programmed by master-programmer and game designer Philip Price.

"The idea behind AR was a place to entertain but also to enlighten/educate
oneself. I desired to have as realistic of a world possible, but still
a world that was filled with the unknown. I knew I couldn't do it in
one product so I plan to develop it through a series. Your characters
had free will, and by the end of the game, you had many choices you
could make. In the end you are left with many choices, continue to live
in your image body, a nearly immortal life, but knowing that these
aliens have done this to you and can watch, feel, experience whatever
you do whenever they want. You are their entertainment. They have become
jaded by luxury, power and knowledge and use lesser beings to regain
some of the passions of life. You can cut off this channel, though they
may also destroy the ship, or earth. You can escape in a smaller ship
than the entertainment world and go back to earth (hoping to evade the
future capture ships these beings send to gain more 'entertainment'. You
could destroy the planet [and hope that they are not a multi planet race]
You can take the entertainment world (that was orbiting the alien's
planet) and bring it back to earth to let the scientist learn from it
[and hope the aliens don't trace it]. You could blackmail the aliens.
You could sell out humanity. You could try to bluff them. There are many
choices, life isn't easy and some of the most important decision are the
hardest to find a best answer in..."

 

The Matrix similarities continue. In The Dungeon you get advice from an
Oracle (though in Alternate Reality the Oracle is a flaming eye). You
meet someone they call a Wizard, but who is actually someone who's
hacked into the computer. Since he wasn't run from the computer, he was
not traceable. (Morpheus?) The Special Agents eventually capture him,
however and lock him in a prison. He gives you this access card, which
has been hacked to avoid their security sensors. You rescue another
wizard named Ozob from a prison, and he teaches you how to slow time
so you can attack faster and defend yourself better. (Bullet Time?)
You cross the river Stonz into the land of the undead and defeat seven
warriors. Each, undefeated for hundreds of years, calls out "Are you the
One?" upon being defeated. Once through, you meet an undead king, a
previous lord of Alternate Reality (shades of the Merovingian?)

 

You are vaguely aware of being inside a computer. The numbers at the top
of the screen are a constant reminder of this as you are conscious of
them. If you figured out the Architect's speech at the end of Reloaded
you know that everyone in The Matrix is also vaguely aware of being in it.
In The Matrix, the world of the Matrix is sickly green, and the real
world a warm yellow. If you haven't caught it, the Machine World is
blue. In Alternate Reality the colors are also different, and are also a
reminder as to the true nature of reality. Nighttime is actually black
and white, and this isn't because of the limitations of the game (if you
saw the graphics, you would believe me), and is featured in the lyrics
of one of songs "the nighttime comes, they take the colors of away."
If you try to copy or otherwise tamper with the game, you're confronted
by FBI Agents in suits who you can't escape from and are impossibly
strong. In other words, if you try to change the master program, Agents
come after you and won't let you continue to exist inside the program.

 

Part 2: The Matrix Online: How Deep Does the Rabbit Hole Go?

Okay, so a game from the 1980's had premise that was similar to The
Matrix and a few similar characters, big deal. Well, the developer of the
game claims that he had a conversation with "two brothers in Los Angeles"
about this game in the mid to early 90's. By the late 90's there was a
strong interest in this game, and he started working on the sequel:
Alternate Reality Online. Just as Alternate Reality took CRPG's to the
next level, ARO was going to take online gaming to the next level, and
it would continue the saga of people trapped in a computer world, just
beginning to realize this, and what they would do about it.

 

He started shopping around, and a gaming company called Monolith picked
up the idea and started collaborating with him on it. They even created
a web site, aro.com , which is no longer up, but is still owned by
Monolith (you can tell because the name servers point to Lith.com).
Several months later, they dropped the idea, and sent him packing. He
says he didn't give them all of his ideas, but they did get quite a few.
Now The Matrix Online is coming out, and guess who's developing it.
That's right, Monolith. At some point, I think, even if you're skeptical,
you'll have to admit this is an awful lot of coincidences...

 

"I did talk to two guys while at a restaurant in Westwood [In LA , near
UCLA, it's the core of Hollywood]. I explained to them AR and it
storyline, ideas and the Hollywood movie Dark City similarities to some
of it and it's differences [i.e. things I think they did wrong in that
movie that made it a bomb in the box office]. They listened intently,
and one of them remarked to me (as they smiled to each other) was that
"ideas can't be copyrighted". Matrix came out a few years later, I very
much doubt they were the two brothers who came up with Matrix, but it
made me wonder after Matrix came out. Technically the idea of being
deceived into thinking one's environment is one thing, when it is
actually another has been expressed in Science Fiction for decades
before I used that core concept. Those books by great Science Fiction
authors probably is where I got my kernel of an idea...!

 

Part 3: Digression: Dark City, The Thirteenth Floor, Bound,
Simulacra and Simulation...
Incidentally, James McTeigue, who was the First Assistant Director for
all the Matrix movies was the Second Assistant Directory for Dark City,
and the rooftop scenes at the beginning of The Matrix where Trinity is
running from the cops & Agents is a recycled set from Dark City. So
what's Dark City about? It's a surreal movie where each night, everyone
passes out and the city and their memories are re-arranged. The whole
thing is very strange. Dark City is actually based on Daniel Paul
Schreber's book Memoirs of My Nervous Illness. A strange nightmarish
book where the doctors sort of invade his reality, and he believes he's
been chosen by God to father (mother, actually, God had to change his
gender) a new race. Freud treated Schreber and found his case so
fascinating, he wrote a book about it called The Schreber Case.

 

Another movie that explores this virtual reality theme is The Thirteenth
Floor, which I won't talk too much about because I don't want to ruin it
for you. I highly recommend both movies, along with the Wachowski's
previous work Bound to all Matrix fans. Finally, there's the book Neo
uses to stash his computer programs, which he can be seen sleeping next
to the first time you see him, and the book Keanu Reeves was required
to read before he even read the script, Simulacra and Simulation (The
Body, In Theory: Histories of Cultural Materialism), which talks about
how our modern world alters our perception of reality - your perception
becomes reality - what is The Matrix?

 

Part 4: What Made The Game So Good ?
All right, so you know it has a plot like The Matrix. Now add free form
and non-linear play deeper than Grand Theft Auto, and constant character
related challenges like The Sims (you got hungry, thirsty, tired, cold,
etc.). Sprinkle in some RPG elements, innovative use of graphics and
audio (truly mind blowing for the mid 80's), and you come close to
Alternate Reality. We never got to know the full plot, but parts would
reveal itself during game play, a bit like Alice falling down the rabbit
hole. Characters you met would allude to the truth about your situation,
give you access to advanced weaponry, and teach you tricks about your
environment.

 

Walk in to a bar in The City, and buy a round for the house. You might
make a few friends and if you're ever down on your luck, head back to
that tavern and someone just might buy you dinner. Each bar has it's own
music, and regulars. Oh, and you might want to come in from the rain,
and from the dark, that's when the unsavory elements came out and you
may run in to a mugger, or a mind flayer. The sun sets slowly, changing
the sky from bright blue to deeper and deeper shades of purple, and the
sun shimmers in the distance. Eventually the sun goes down and the world
goes black and white. Or it might rain. As you explore The City, you may
stumble on a healer's (better mark that down on the map) or a Guild, who
can teach you tricks to improve your strength, intelligence, or stamina.
Then you can wander in to The Dungeon, home to a generations old war
between the trolls and goblins. Will you befriend one and betray the
other? Or will you betray both to get the magic ring? Or maybe you'll
join a guild. There are over a half dozen, each with their affiliations
and grudges. Be careful, betray someone, and they may send assassins
after you.

 

Of course, assassins aren't the only thing that can kill you in AR. You
can die of starvation, or exhaustion. What happens when you're too hungry
to pick up a sword and fight or too tired to cast a spell? You can be
cursed by someone you kill, or diseased by an infected animal, or by
hitting the jagged edge of a wall. Healing curses and diseases are
expensive. To do so may mean going without rest until you can get some
more money. You walk around first-person shooter style, though you can
only turn at 90 degrees. The walls and buildings gradually got closer or
farther as you walked towards or away from them. The walls weren't static
images, they'd get slowly closer and clearer. From what I hear, the
developers of the 2nd installment, The Dungeon (Dan Pinal and Ken Jordan)
could've made a game that didn't turn at 90 degree angles, but wanted to
keep the flavor of the original. I don't even know how many years this
pre-dates Doom by.

 

Another amazing thing about this game was the sound design. When you were
in town square, it was noisy, if you entered a room off the main square,
the first thing you notice is silence. That's when you really notice just
how noisy this game is. The game creator understood the importance of
sound in a video game well before anyone else - in the same timeframe,
Lucas Arts was being applauded for making a game where a knock on the
door was used instead of a visual clue (Rescue on Fractalus / Behind
Jaggi Lines).

 

In Alternate Reality, there were many non visual clues, if you got near a
smith, you would hear the clink clink clink of his hammer hitting the
anvil, and the occasional SHHHH of water hitting a hot sword. His hammer
strokes were steady, but realistically intermittent as well. A small
melody played whenever you met someone to clue you in as to their
alignment. Different kinds of doors made different sounds. Again, this is
in an era where a dwarf attacking a dark elf in one game sounds basically
the same as car crash in another game, or a gun shot in a third game.

Sounds in this game have a unique quality to them because he designed a
sound module that created richer voices than the simple sine, square, and
saw waves that were being used by games at the time. He worked with
composer Gary Gilbertson to add some truly outstanding songs. The
introduction alone is a 5 or so minute music video, starting with an
alien ship coming down and kidnapping people, and continuing with the
ship taking off into space, and a star field (similar to the MS
screensaver that was so popular a few years ago, but with spinning stars
as well) and lyrics. In the bars, taverns, guilds and chapel there were
also songs. I've heard of people whose musical tastes were influenced
by these games. I feel silly admitting it, but after wandering around
The Dungeon for days (probably both in real and game time), I wandered
into the chapel, and the soft melody almost brought a tear to my eye.
I guess it's no wonder I grew up to be a musician.

 

You also never chose your alignment, like in most fantasy RPG's of the
day. Your alignment evolved over time. You became more good or evil
depending on your actions and not some decision you made when you were
creating your character. Am I the kind of person who gives money to the
homeless, or am I the kind of person who kills them to advance myself?
You would even gain a reputation that was unrelated to your alignment.
You could be evil, but have a code of ethics and you would be known for
it. Spend too much time with the unsavory elements in The Dungeon, and
you start to have nightmares.

 

Similar to Grand Theft Auto, you define your own plot and work towards
your own goals. Even when the game was finished, I would still play
because I wanted to save up enough money to get a custom sword, and to
have it enchanted. I would want to kill the great dragon, and carry off
all the money I could carry. Though once I did, the economy in The
Dungeon would collapse and everything would become more expensive.
You can play Alternate Reality today on Emulator. We have permission
of the creator - Philip Price, who is the copyright holder. We also have
permission from the folks who developed the 2nd installment, Ken Jordan
and Dan Pinal to play that. You can learn more by visiting Rob's Original
Alternate Reality Homepage which houses the FAQ. If you're a fan of the
game and want to join an active community, check out the Alternate
Reality Mailing List. My own small fan page is designed to look like
you're playing the game, and I have downloadable files to help you get
going. (Quotes are from Philip Price.)

 

Part 5: The Third Eye, The Terminator and The Matrix
Speculative Fiction writer Sophia Stewart submitted a manuscript to be
turned in to a comic book in the early 80's. This script, called The
Third Eye was about a technological future, where it was prophesied that
a man would be born who would overthrow the machine world. Naturally,
the machines want to prevent his birth, and fight him every step along
the way. Does this sound familiar? It should, becaues it's the basis of
not only The Matrix, but The Terminator as well. Sophia Stewart
successfully sued Joel Silver (the producer of both Terminator and
The Matrix series) and the Wachowski Brothers for copying her story.
According to some sources, the Wachowski Brothers regularly referred to
her manuscript while making the Matrix...

 

Keywords:
Alternate Reality The City,
Alternate Reality The Dungeon,
Atari 800XL, Atari 800,
Commodore 64, Amiga,
Great Wrym
The Original Alternate Reality Homepage (with the FAQ)
The Alternate Reality Mailing List
My fan page
Alternate Reality - Wikipedia
"Mother of the Matrix" Victorious
Sophia Stewart: The Mother of the Matrix

All this contents, Copyright by Mark Wieczorek.
Header photography by Diana Yee.
Page Created on Feb 07, 2004 last updated Jun 08, 2005
Site updated Apr 01, 2006"

 

[mutterminder]

It was an ambitious vision for an 8-bit game series.  Too bad this never happened.  At least...  not in our reality.

[scottinNH]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:12 PM, Xebec's Demise said:

Isn't the main theme of both Alternate Reality and The Matrix that you discover your mind has been involuntarily placed within a virtual reality?

 

Did you not see this post here and the article I linked to quoting Philip Price?

Alternate Reality, as a work unto itself, contains no suggestion it is a virtual reality.

If Mr. Price intended to communicate this was virtual, it never manifested in the works that were published.

 

All the gamer knows is this they are real, contained in a world controlled by your captors.

Actually, we don't even know it's a physical world, or what it is. Story interrupted.

 

Simulated reality is a very, very common theme in science fiction.

William Gibson. Neal Stephenson. Philip K. Dick especially.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by scottinNH