Alternate Reality: The City by Philip Price for Atari 800

[bfollett]

After being completely engrossed for the past four days (girlfriend is annoyed!) I find myself getting booted right back out of every establishment I enter. It flashes from 'Entering' to 'Leaving' no matter where I go and puts me back on the street in seconds.

 

I remember reading a thread not long ago where that problem was discussed. It has something to do with the copy protection of the program. If you are using an emulator and its "save state" option, than your character disk is getting out of sync with the save state and the copy protection is kicking in when it see's the difference. I know the simplest solution is is not to use "save state", but if I recall, there was a way to make sure your save game and save states don't get out of sync. Either do a little searching or wait for someone else to chime in.

 

Bob

[Rybags]

One or two do that by default anyway.

I know for sure that the Smithy's will chuck you out if you've insulted them enough with low buy offers. I think the Shops might also do it.

 

But, they generally say something like "Get out Worm!" first.

 

From memory, clothing (or lack of) only makes a difference to character's attitude towards you in The Dungeon. In The City, I think it only affects your cold/warm status.

 

Might be the copy protection in action? I don't know really, never tried to play an unhacked simple copy of the original.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Rybags

[Xebec's Demise]

First off, I can't THANK YOU enough for bringing back the greatest rpg of all time and my Atari 800 addiction from 1987! So many great memories brought back.

 

After being completely engrossed for the past four days (girlfriend is annoyed!) I find myself getting booted right back out of every establishment I enter. It flashes from 'Entering' to 'Leaving' no matter where I go and puts me back on the street in seconds.

 

What happened? Any fixes for this??? Was working great up until now. Please help.

 

 

-Trader J

 

Here's a post from Goochman that explains the problem and how to get around it:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1081725

[Trader J]

First off, I can't THANK YOU enough for bringing back the greatest rpg of all time and my Atari 800 addiction from 1987! So many great memories brought back.

 

After being completely engrossed for the past four days (girlfriend is annoyed!) I find myself getting booted right back out of every establishment I enter. It flashes from 'Entering' to 'Leaving' no matter where I go and puts me back on the street in seconds.

 

What happened? Any fixes for this??? Was working great up until now. Please help.

 

 

-Trader J

 

Here's a post from Goochman that explains the problem and how to get around it:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1081725

 

Greatly appreciated, guys! Thank you for responding. Looks like my current character and days of work will be lost due to using 'Save States' incorrectly. Lesson learned. Thanks, again.

[eegad]

An Alternate Reality City related question....

 

 

How many people have found the magical Flamesword, which I believe is the ultimate weapon in the game? I played this game SO much back in the day, and have also played it once or twice a year via emulators these past 10 years. But I never found the flamesword. Is it only from a particular creature at a particular location? I once heard that "green dragons" (I think) were the only creatures to yield flameswords. But I've killed many of those through the years (my God.....for like 20 years I've been playing this game now!!!!) and still no flameswords. :-(

[Albert]

Man, this thread just made me waste a bunch of time reading some Alternate Reality-related pages (pages I've probably looked at in the past), and wishing that someone would reincarnate the series... It amazes me that nothing has really followed in these games' footsteps..

 

..Al

[Xebec's Demise]

How many people have found the magical Flamesword, which I believe is the ultimate weapon in the game? I played this game SO much back in the day, and have also played it once or twice a year via emulators these past 10 years. But I never found the flamesword. Is it only from a particular creature at a particular location? I once heard that "green dragons" (I think) were the only creatures to yield flameswords. But I've killed many of those through the years (my God.....for like 20 years I've been playing this game now!!!!) and still no flameswords. :-(

 

I only recall finding a magical flamesword once or twice. The City is brutal. And yes, I think the flamesword is the best weapon in The City.

 

It seems like I found my flameswords in the rain in the SE part of town with a Treasure Finding potion. It usually seems like there are some good monsters there, especially Imps - it could all be a coincidence but I do recall different areas having different spawns. I don't remember the creatures I got my flameswords off, but I do still have an impression that Dragons don't give good loot and Trolls usually do.

[Xebec's Demise]

Man, this thread just made me waste a bunch of time reading some Alternate Reality-related pages (pages I've probably looked at in the past), and wishing that someone would reincarnate the series... It amazes me that nothing has really followed in these games' footsteps..

 

I always keep coming back to one of the best games of all time - AR was simply amazing in it's time, and still amazes today.

 

There was so much attention to detail when programming AR, details that made it seem like a little virtual world.

 

I can't wait for wrathchild's cartridge conversion - actually I can't even remember the details of what would be possible at this point. Guess I'll have to do some AR reading too!

 

 

Character saves? Seamless play? Anti-cheat? Unlocked areas?

 

Many things were discussed.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Xebec's Demise

[Xebec's Demise]

Here's something I've never seen before:

 

Alternate Reality: The City IBM, MS-DOS Shrink Wrapped

 

http://cgi.ebay.com:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...em=330323745073

 

I don't know if it's worth $70 though.

[Albert]

Nice to see a copy shrinkwrapped, although the box looks like it's been crushed. So I'm not sure that describing it as being in "VERY GOOD CONDITION" is accurate. Plus, there seems to be quite a bit of wear along the right edge. Are the gold foil stickers attached directly to the box, or shrinkwrap? Could have been reshrinkwrapped..

 

..Al

[Xebec's Demise]

Nice to see a copy shrinkwrapped, although the box looks like it's been crushed. So I'm not sure that describing it as being in "VERY GOOD CONDITION" is accurate. Plus, there seems to be quite a bit of wear along the right edge. Are the gold foil stickers attached directly to the box, or shrinkwrap? Could have been reshrinkwrapped..

 

..Al

 

Yes, even though he states it is unused and shrinkwrapped you do still have to be cautious. The box does look worn.

 

As far as I know both stickers are on the inside of the shrinkwrap though - that's how they are on an unwrapped Atari version I have.

 

I'm not even sure these came shrinkwrapped though. Does anyone know?

[carmel_andrews]

chrikes xebex... where have you been...welcome back mate

[Angry Jedi]

Hi guys!

 

I'm new to the forums (and the site) but rediscovered Alternate Reality recently. I posted a lengthy blog entry about it here recently, and also discussed it on a recent one of our podcasts (iTunes link - go here for RSS if you're interested) - the podcast mostly focused on the Commodore 64 but I showed plenty of Atari love - I grew up with Commodore as "the enemy" after all

 

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for posting the great info, tips and stories about AR - I have very fond memories of it, even though I have always had the most rotten luck on my playthroughs

[Xebec's Demise]

chrikes xebex... where have you been...welcome back mate

 

Thank you!

 

I check in and read the forums every once in a while - don't post much though.

 

I've been getting involved in government and politics, which takes up a lot of time.

[Xebec's Demise]

Hi guys!

 

I'm new to the forums (and the site) but rediscovered Alternate Reality recently. I posted a lengthy blog entry about it here recently, and also discussed it on a recent one of our podcasts (iTunes link - go here for RSS if you're interested) - the podcast mostly focused on the Commodore 64 but I showed plenty of Atari love - I grew up with Commodore as "the enemy" after all

 

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for posting the great info, tips and stories about AR - I have very fond memories of it, even though I have always had the most rotten luck on my playthroughs

 

Hey, that's pretty neat!

 

Feel free to post your character screenshot in our AR competition thread, along with your blog link:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69487

 

Nice, story. I've got it bookmarked to read later.

 

I've often wondered if there was any difference in difficulty between the Atari and Commodore versions. I'm not sure if everything got translated over. Have you tried playing the Atari version on an emulator?

Edited April 30, 2009 by Xebec's Demise

[Angry Jedi]

Hey, that's pretty neat!

 

Feel free to post your character screenshot in our AR competition thread, along with your blog link:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69487

 

Nice, story. I've got it bookmarked to read later.

 

I've often wondered if there was any difference in difficulty between the Atari and Commodore versions. I'm not sure if everything got translated over. Have you tried playing the Atari version on an emulator?

 

Hey. Thanks for the reply!

 

Think you misread me a little - I'm playing the Atari version on an emulator. My podcasting buddies were Commodore peeps in days of yore so I saw fit to educate them on the wonder of Atari and particularly AR.

 

I think you're right, though - the Commodore port, if I remember correctly, at the very least didn't have as fancy graphics as the Atari AR. I haven't tried it myself, though.

 

I also had the Atari ST version back in the day, too. I always remember actually liking the 8-bit Atari's intro sequence better than the ST's one for some reason. The intro to the City is also better than the one to The Dungeon for my money, even though they're essentially almost identical.

 

I've still never given The Dungeon a go. I have disk images but want to see how far I can get in The City first.

[Xebec's Demise]

Philip Price really maximized the use of the Atari, and I suspect some of the code was lost in translation. I have not played the Commodore version much other than to load it up and walk around a bit. Check out this entry in the wiki:

 

Price created the first 3D textured map RPG which was named Alternate Reality (computer game), inventing algorithms needed. He implemented software protection in the game that included: block chain ciphers, weak-bit anti-copy technology (invention of the publisher Datasoft), real-time code creation using data folding to prevent static analysis, and memory bank detection which, if it detected a pirate code insertion, would use a self-relocating viral code to perform a memory wipe.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Price

 

I wonder if the Commodore version is easier, I've never really done a fair comparison. I also tried that Atari ST version and that one is really easy. It has extra features, but much of the challenge is gone.

 

After all these years, I'm still trying to figure out the effect of clothing in the Atari 8-bit version - it's one of the largest most complex systems in the game, yet hardly anyone has really explored it.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Xebec's Demise

[danwinslow]

"real-time code creation using data folding"

 

WTF does that mean?

[AB Positive]

I'm addicted to this game and it's sad, I'm still just trying to get to a tavern, with copper in hand, so I can rest. I can often get to the Lost Oasis tavern and try to whip up some extra cash but every time I head to the nearest Inn I find that big nasties come after me... then steal my cash as I know I can't take 'em on. (Warriors mainly).

 

Although I have gained a level before dying. I'm doing better.

 

This reminds me a LOT of nethack in difficulty and a couple other aspects. I'm highly highly impressed by this game considering I'm an A8 noob.

[Angry Jedi]

I'm addicted to this game and it's sad, I'm still just trying to get to a tavern, with copper in hand, so I can rest. I can often get to the Lost Oasis tavern and try to whip up some extra cash but every time I head to the nearest Inn I find that big nasties come after me... then steal my cash as I know I can't take 'em on. (Warriors mainly).

 

Although I have gained a level before dying. I'm doing better.

 

This reminds me a LOT of nethack in difficulty and a couple other aspects. I'm highly highly impressed by this game considering I'm an A8 noob.

 

NetHack is, I think, a good comparison, in that you kind of make your own fun. Because the series was never finished, The City doesn't really have a "purpose" as such, except to 1. have fun 2. die a lot and 3. theoretically level you up in preparation to play The Dungeon... if you survive long enough to make it to a Dungeon entrance

 

One of my favourite things about roguelikes and AR for that matter is that this freedom really encourages you to develop your own "narrative" for the game - we've seen it a ton in this thread and the AR competition thread, on my blog post and doubtless there's other people out there too. One of my favourite gaming stories of all time is actually from Angband, where I was 5 levels down into the dungeon and my torch spluttered out... I didn't have another light source so I had to find my way out by feeling my way along the walls. The feeling of satisfaction I got when I managed to actually escape despite this problem was huge... just like the feeling of satisfaction you get when you make it, battered and bruised, to an Inn in The City.

[eegad]

"real-time code creation using data folding"

 

WTF does that mean?

 

 

Well I don't know if they were talking about the following, but...

 

 

When AR first came out, I spent a fair amount of time trying to crack it and copy it. Yes, I did purchase it, but I wanted to crack it to use as trade for games from other people. I also used to like the challenge of trying to crack copy protection schemes.

 

 

Anyway, no I never did manage to crack the game. It started out promising when I found the usual checking for flawed sectors in the initial loading program, which is what most software at the time used. But after removing that code, the copy still wouldn't work and I found that the program started doing a lot more funky stuff after the initial flawed-sector checks. Like loading in a chunk of data into one part of memory; then loading a second chunk elsewhere; and then performing operations on those 2 chunks and storing them in a third location (ie - 'exclusive OR'-ing (EOR) byte 1 of chunk 1, with byte 1 of chunk 2 and storing it in the third memory location....then moving onto byte 2, etc). Looking at the chunks of data #1 and #2 was just gibberish. But the resulting third chunk of data was excutable code. Thus, you couldn't disassemble what was stored on the disk directly and read through the programming code......what was on disk was gibberish.....executable code was CREATED in ram at run-time. And AR did this in multiple layers. I unscrambled a few manually, but gave up after that. Somewhere much further down the line, it was again checking for those flawed (fuzzy) sectors, but it was way too much of a hassle to keep unscrambling all that data to find out where (and then also dealing with checksum issues, which it also checked for!)

 

But it was interesting, seeing what was going on in there, and I assume that's the "data folding" that they were talking about in the above quote.

Edited May 3, 2009 by eegad

[Xebec's Demise]

So, after removing this security code, the game might not function the same. Does the cracked version run differently than an original?

 

It sounds like it would be very difficult to remove the real-time code, and anything it may affect, from the entire game without resulting to a few hacks that modify how the game runs. And, how would you ever know if you corrected ever bit of code that may have relied upon it?

 

Is real-time code creation used in any other Atari 8-bit software? What about the other stuff?

 

 

Can anyone explain these in further detail;

 

1) Block chain ciphers

 

2) Weak-bit anti-copy technology (I'm assuming this one the commonly used bad disk sectors)

 

3) Real-time code creation using data folding to prevent static analysis

 

4) Memory bank detection, if it detected a pirate code insertion, would use a self-relocating viral code to perform a memory wipe.

[Rybags]

Code creation - a fancy name for decryption, I reckon.

 

I attempted to crack Dungeon years ago. The boot loader from memory loaded the subsequent section, then each section had it's loader code for the next.

There was a decryption key that I think was 128 bytes. The decryption process, from memory, also relied on the previous byte as it was working... so if you were to change the program, then the code after it would become corrupted.

Of course, the smart thing to do was just modify the thing so that the code was no longer decrypted.

 

As for memory bank detection and detecting "pirate code" ... dunno about that. The Atari only clears the non-expanded RAM from $0000-$7FFF, $9FFF or $BFFF depending on if a cart's there, if BASIC is enabled etc. RAM under the OS and in 130XE and other expanded schemes isn't touched and should contain "random" bit patterns.

 

Of course, a game could load itself, e.g. at $600 then just do an OR of every byte from e.g. $0A00 to (Display List Start - 1). It should all be zeros, and non-zero values found could indicate foul play.

[kurtm]

I actually went to college with someone who cracked it. And this guy could do it. He was the scary combination of brilliant and brute force.

 

It's been some 19 years now since we talked about it, but he talked about how you couldn't just disable the check, because it used the check code for decrypting other code. So he built his own loader, and decrypted *all* the code for it himself. Brute force.

 

This same guy later got some poorly documented workstations from Kodak running, because he just started looking through the ROMs for the font data that he knew it displayed. And then looked for the code that referenced those locations, and on and on.

 

But yeah. The AR stuff is *brilliant*. Especially considering how much of it let you have a copy that appeared to run on first glance, but it *knew* it was a copy.

[Rybags]

That's 90% of the trick of good copy-protection. Most disk-based games were so bleedingly obvious - often it was a case of only needing to change a couple of bytes to totally defeat it.

 

I never looked at AR - the pirate networks had it sorted early on. Dungeon was a different story here - I never saw a cracked copy until I grabbed it online back 8 or so years ago.

 

I actually used some tools I wrote on the ST to try to crack it. The multiple loading of stages it did before the game even started made it especially hard to work out. By the time I made any inroads, the next generation of games/systems was here and I just spent more time playing them.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Rybags