analmux Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I live in Europe (where we have only PAL ataris), but maybe I want to have a NTSC atari too. Are these easy to get, and do they work in Europe? ....because here in the Netherlands (PAL = 50 Hz) the electricity (220 V) network has a AC frequency of 50 Hz. Is this a coincidence or is a PAL system 50 Hz because it has to synchronize with the electricity net? ...Is the elec. net in the USA 60 Hz (like the NTSC frequency). So would I be able to run 60 Hz on the monitor while the elec. net is still 50 Hz I sure would need the Commodore 1084 monitor (like Gunstar mentioned). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathtrappomegranate Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 They will work in Europe. For display, you can use a monitor cable to connect to a monitor or a TV, or you can use the NTSC TV output if you have a TV or VCR capable of decoding NTSC RF signals. Panasonic VCRs are good for this. You can sometimes get used NTSC equipment, especially if you live near as US military facility, but you'd need a step-down transformer too in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javiero Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 It is the tv format, the refresh rate is tied to the line frecuency, that's why in America, the continet my friends, we have our Ataris tied to 60HZ and in Europe is 50Hz, you need a tv than can switch from ntsc to pal to use an ntsc Atari, now in Europe you use 220 v, we use 120, so you need to switch power packs you need an european one for both the ntsc and the pal ataris. Greetings from Mexico And yes Mexico is in America, north of us is just the us. They will work in Europe. For display, you can use a monitor cable to connect to a monitor or a TV, or you can use the NTSC TV output if you have a TV or VCR capable of decoding NTSC RF signals. Panasonic VCRs are good for this. You can sometimes get used NTSC equipment, especially if you live near as US military facility, but you'd need a step-down transformer too in that case. 879513[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 It is the tv format, the refresh rate is tied to the line frecuency Not at all. You can perfectly use a TV with any refresh rate disregarding the line frequency. I guess that originally, when the TV standards were designed, there was a relation. But you can use an european TV with a 60 hz line frequency and the refresh rate will still be 50 Hz. Or viceversa. Or if the TV can sync to both refresh rates, then it will use whatever the computer will send. You might need a transformer, but transformers adapt the voltage, not the line frequency. And virtually no equipment has problems when used with the "wrong" line frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I sure would need the Commodore 1084 monitor (like Gunstar mentioned). 879483[/snapback] As far as I know the 1084 is NTSC OR PAL so you need the NTSC model. Some TV's in Europe also support NTSC (like my Panasonic) if you have a TFT Display with video in you can also give it a try. I have an Acer 1712 which is able to do NTSC and PAL. For my 1200XL I use an ordinary 220V 1050 power supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 I sure would need the Commodore 1084 monitor (like Gunstar mentioned). 879483[/snapback] As far as I know the 1084 is NTSC OR PAL so you need the NTSC model. Some TV's in Europe also support NTSC (like my Panasonic) if you have a TFT Display with video in you can also give it a try. I have an Acer 1712 which is able to do NTSC and PAL. For my 1200XL I use an ordinary 220V 1050 power supply. 879624[/snapback] Well, this is what Gunstar wrote about it: I'm using a Commodore 1084S monitor which is compatible with both 50 and 60hz. ...and about the Voltage difference between Europ and America (220 V vs. 110 V): Allt hat matters is the output voltage (DC) of the adapter. It gives 5 and 12 V DC if I'm correct. You could eventually run an Atari on batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Well, this is what Gunstar wrote about it:I'm using a Commodore 1084S monitor which is compatible with both 50 and 60hz. I am quite sure that he is right but you will only have a black and white picture. ...and about the Voltage difference between Europ and America (220 V vs. 110 V): Allt hat matters is the output voltage (DC) of the adapter. It gives 5 and 12 V DC if I'm correct. You could eventually run an Atari on batteries. Right I just want to say that you can use a normal European Atari Power Supply (the 1050 has 9V AC btw.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Well, this is what Gunstar wrote about it:I'm using a Commodore 1084S monitor which is compatible with both 50 and 60hz. I am quite sure that he is right but you will only have a black and white picture. You will get a black and white picture if you hook it up to the composite input. If you use the S-Video/Croma-Luma input you should be fine. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathtrappomegranate Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 When NTSC was developed in the 1940s, the frame rate was, indeed, based on the frequency of the electrical supply. It made for simpler electronics. The same was true of PAL. However, nowadays, it's not relevant. Almost all modern TVs sold in Europe can cope with a 60Hz NTSC signal via a SCART/Euroconnector. So, a "monitor socket to TV" cable will work OK. If you need to use the RF output, you need a RF demodulator (such as a VCR) that can cope with NTSC RF signals, or a TV that accepts NTSC RF input (Panasonic is good for this). Some TVs will have colour discrepancies when using NTSC signals, but many modern models allow for the selection of colour timing (I have a Toshiba that does this very well). I don't bother using monitors. I tried out a Commodore monitor (although only with a PAL A8) and was not greatly impressed. Video out modifications can give really great results on modern TV sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I sure would need the Commodore 1084 monitor (like Gunstar mentioned). 879483[/snapback] As far as I know the 1084 is NTSC OR PAL so you need the NTSC model. Some TV's in Europe also support NTSC (like my Panasonic) if you have a TFT Display with video in you can also give it a try. I have an Acer 1712 which is able to do NTSC and PAL. For my 1200XL I use an ordinary 220V 1050 power supply. 879624[/snapback] In most respects, except for the power transformer in the 1084, which would be made for either 220v or 120v depending on what region the 1084 was sold in, 1084 monitors are dual-region. the 1084 sold in England/Europe will also display a 60hz signal just like my U.S. model that supports either 50 or 60hz. The only thing is you can't buy a 1084 from the other region becuase the voltage would be wrong (220v or 120v) so you'd need a step down/up transformer. But if you buy the right 1084 for where you live, it will display 50 or 60hz. They say right on the back even that they are 50/60hz monitors. This is also true of Atari SC1224 monitors, mine displays 50hz too, I know from many hacker disks that give you the option to choose either 50/60hz display. But the SC1224 monitors only have RGB, no composite or S-video like the 1084's. So SC1224's won't work for an Atari 8-bit or anything else that uses composite/S-video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Well, this is what Gunstar wrote about it:I'm using a Commodore 1084S monitor which is compatible with both 50 and 60hz. I am quite sure that he is right but you will only have a black and white picture. ...and about the Voltage difference between Europ and America (220 V vs. 110 V): Allt hat matters is the output voltage (DC) of the adapter. It gives 5 and 12 V DC if I'm correct. You could eventually run an Atari on batteries. Right I just want to say that you can use a normal European Atari Power Supply (the 1050 has 9V AC btw.). 879650[/snapback] Oviously you no nothing about the 1084's at all. I have a perfectly good COLOR picture regardless if I am using 50 or 60hz. I don't lie and I don't say things like that unless I KNOW what I am talking about, unlike you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) Well, this is what Gunstar wrote about it:I'm using a Commodore 1084S monitor which is compatible with both 50 and 60hz. I am quite sure that he is right but you will only have a black and white picture. You will get a black and white picture if you hook it up to the composite input. If you use the S-Video/Croma-Luma input you should be fine. Mitch 879666[/snapback] WRONG. I get a perfectly good COLOR picture with BOTH composite and S-video with my 1084 with BOTH 50hz and 60hz displays. I DO NOT SAY SUCH THINGS UNLESS I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!! If you choose not to belive what I say or think I am talking out of my *ss that is YOUR PROBLEM. But those who choose to believe what i say here can rest assured that it is FACTUAL! Regardless of whether I am using RGB, S-video or composite on my 1084S, I get a full color picture, at both 50hz and 60hz! Edited June 24, 2005 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Regardless of whether I am using RGB, S-video or composite on my 1084S, I get a full color picture, at both 50hz and 60hz! I'm not arguing because I don't know the specs of the 1084, just asking ... You get color with your 1084S using a PAL output, or just at 50 Hz (with your modded PAL Antic)? One thing is to be able to sync to both rates (50-60Hz). Another thing is to be dual-norm (PAL/NTSC). If you using your US A8 with a PAL Antic, you are just changing the refresh rate, but the video signal will still be NTSC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 You are quite correct that a 1084S can handle both 50 and 60HZ and both 525 and 625 scan lines, but you are missing my point, NTSC and PAL machines generate COLOR in different ways. If you've got an actual PAL system (not an NTSC system outputing 50 HZ) it would output in black and white on a composite NTSC monitor. It doesn't matter if it's a 1084S or not. And yes, I have an actual PAL system and I have tried it. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 but you are missing my point, NTSC and PAL machines generate COLOR in different ways. Furthermore, there are subnorms both for PAL and NTSC. And if the TV and the equipment don't match in the subnorm, you might also get a black and white display. Plus if using RF (not composite), you might get not sound. There two or thre NTSC variants I think which I don't remember the exact name, and about half a dozen PAL subnorms (PAL, PAL-B,PAL-N,PAL-M,PAL-I). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) Ok, I understand what you guys are saying now, and yes, I've only tried it with my XL witht the PAL Antic, and with my ST and Amiga (when I owned it) all NTSC machines outputting a 50hz display. but none of you said that initially, which is why I took offense, naturally, at what seemed to be weakly vailed accusations that I didn't know what I was talking about. I didn't take in to consideration about the PAL color difference, and as far as the PAL ANTIC chip, I thought it would naturally be outputting PAL color, mainly becuase the hues are different with it; if I want my games to have the same colors as they have with 60hz NTSC, I have to adjust the hue to where the blue Atari screen is actually green. I logically thought that this was due to PAL color output. Since this IS the case, I'm still not totally convinced that it isn't outputting in PAL color. If it were still outputting in NTSC color, then why would the colors be off? Could this be an effect of NTSC color being output at 50hz instead of 60hz? I didn't think the refresh rate could effect the color. Of course with the 16-bit machines, they are totally NTSC outputting a 50hz signal. Edited June 24, 2005 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Blimey what a heated thread, anyone would think people are not reading properly and making hasty replies... To aid the discussion however I'd like to say I have many A8 machines (800, 1200, 800xl, 130, XEGS) that are NTSC units - I have them all powered by UK power supplies hooked into multi-standard monitors and its lovely. One side note, I have found it more reliable for disc based software to ALSO have a US model disc drive hooked up to these systems, not a UK model - several games have borked at loading from a UK drive onto a US A8 machine... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 You will get a black and white picture if you hook it up to the composite input. If you use the S-Video/Croma-Luma input you should be fine. 879666[/snapback] No, he will still get a black and white pictures since the monitor still only has a PAL decoder. Also, PAL/NTSC has nothing to do with the refresh rate. If a signal is PAL or NTSC is depending on the color encoding. PAL-B (used in Europe) has a refresh rate of 50 Hz, and NTSC-M (used in USA) has a refresh rate of 60 Hz. But these aren't the only TV formats, for example PAL-M (60 Hz) which is used in Brazil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 You will get a black and white picture if you hook it up to the composite input. If you use the S-Video/Croma-Luma input you should be fine. 879666[/snapback] No, he will still get a black and white pictures since the monitor still only has a PAL decoder. Also, PAL/NTSC has nothing to do with the refresh rate. If a signal is PAL or NTSC is depending on the color encoding. PAL-B (used in Europe) has a refresh rate of 50 Hz, and NTSC-M (used in USA) has a refresh rate of 60 Hz. But these aren't the only TV formats, for example PAL-M (60 Hz) which is used in Brazil. 880155[/snapback] Fröhn is correct. Vertical refresh rate is based on the number of lines. Color encoding is a separate matter. Separated NTSC video still has the color encoded according to NTSC standards and cannot be decoded on a PAL TV and vice-versa. I've been thinking about getting a multi-standard TV or monitor (they show up on ebay from time to time) just to see how much different a PAL A8 looks. -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 No, he will still get a black and white pictures since the monitor still only has a PAL decoder. Hmm, now that I think about it, that makes more sense. I've never tested a PAL S-Video connection, I had just heard that it works. But since the two S-Video signals are usually just connected via an AND gate to form a composite signal, encoding couldn't happen on that level. Thanks for the correction. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 One side note, I have found it more reliable for disc based software to ALSO have a US model disc drive hooked up to these systems, not a UK model - several games have borked at loading from a UK drive onto a US A8 machine... Hmm, it shouldn't be any difference at all between an US or European 1050 drive. Or you mean a XF-551 ? I understand that many XF-551 released in Europe have mechanisms that can't read the flippy side. But that should be the only possible difference. Many protections fail to load if the drive rotation speed is not accurate. But this can be easily adjusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 Actually it was First Star Stuff that caused me the most problems - orignals we are talking here, the protection failed with a US machine/UK 810, but worked fine with US machine and a US 810... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I didn't take in to consideration about the PAL color difference, and as far as the PAL ANTIC chip, I thought it would naturally be outputting PAL color, mainly becuase the hues are different with it; if I want my games to have the same colors as they have with 60hz NTSC, I have to adjust the hue to where the blue Atari screen is actually green. I logically thought that this was due to PAL color output. Since this IS the case, I'm still not totally convinced that it isn't outputting in PAL color. I don't know why you get different hues with the PAL Antic. But I know for sure that changing the Antic chip won't change the standard/norm video signal. This depends on the encoding circuit. In many countries it was normal to adapt US machines to PAL. The conversion was done (for economic reasons) without changing Antic or Gtia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I didn't take in to consideration about the PAL color difference, and as far as the PAL ANTIC chip, I thought it would naturally be outputting PAL color, mainly becuase the hues are different with it; if I want my games to have the same colors as they have with 60hz NTSC, I have to adjust the hue to where the blue Atari screen is actually green. I logically thought that this was due to PAL color output. Since this IS the case, I'm still not totally convinced that it isn't outputting in PAL color. I don't know why you get different hues with the PAL Antic. But I know for sure that changing the Antic chip won't change the standard/norm video signal. This depends on the encoding circuit. In many countries it was normal to adapt US machines to PAL. The conversion was done (for economic reasons) without changing Antic or Gtia. 881304[/snapback] When I stick a PAL Antic in my system I get exactly the same colors, but at a slower refresh. -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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