CC2 Sell Out Price

[MaDDuck]

BTW, I love the CC2, I think it's the kind of innovative HW that the 2600/7800 users need.

I got to play with an Intellivision one a while back and was VERY impressed with it!! I've since been to Chad's page and was duely blown away with the CC and even more so with the CC2.

It's just for ME, $200 seems a bit steep.

Edited September 19, 2005 by MaDDuck

[+remowilliams]

I have one of the MMC64s (and some other of Jens' products) and it is an awesome little piece of work. Well worth the money.

 

However, the CC2 is a necessarily much more complex device than the MMC64. A quick visual inspection alone of the two devices will tell you why the CC2 costs more. Also (as mentioned) while both the 7800 and C64 userbases are understandably small compared to say the PS2 userbase - the potential sales audience of the MMC64 is HUGE compared to the number of 7800 fans out there and this effects the economy of scale. Hell, even the 2600 userbase is probably huge compared to the 7800 userbase. A direct price comparison between the MMC64 and CC2 isn't really valid.

 

It comes down do this - Chad (as others) has made the CC2 and his other great products for the love of the systems and the hobby. Nobody does this kind of stuff to get rich.

 

Is the CC2 worth $200? Absolutely. Considering that you can place 99.99% of the entire 2600/7800 library on one cart alone makes it worth two or three times that price.

 

Can everyone afford a CC2 at $200? Unfortunately not, different people have (or not) different levels of discretionary income. But not everyone can afford a rare cart for hundreds of dollars either.

 

It's also a matter of priority and what the value of an item is to you versus what the owner can/will sell it for. Would I pay hundreds of dollars for a Motorodeo? No, for me it's just not even close to being worth it. It doesn't mean the cart isn't worth it or doesn't carry that value, it just means it's not worth it to me. By the same token I would have paid $400 for the CC2 if that's what it had to be priced at.

 

It would also seem as I suspected that a fair number of people do not actually know what the CC2 really provides.

 

One other note - Chad went and made a second run of CC2s so that all the people who missed the first run would be able to get the finest multisystem "multicart" ever made. I seriously hope he doesn't get burned with the cost of unsold or undersold inventory as a result. I for one am hoping that he takes on another classic system next

Edited September 19, 2005 by remowilliams

[MaDDuck]

I have one of the MMC64s (and some other of Jens' products) and it is an awesome little piece of work.  Well worth the money.

 

However, the CC2 is a necessarily much more complex device than the MMC64.  A quick visual inspection alone of the two devices will tell you why the CC2 costs more.  Also (as mentioned) while both the 7800 and C64 userbases are understandably small compared to say the PS2 userbase - the potential sales audience of the MMC64 is HUGE compared to the number of 7800 fans out there and this effects the economy of scale.  Hell, even the 2600 userbase is probably huge compared to the 7800 userbase.  A direct price comparison between the MMC64 and CC2 isn't really valid.

 

It comes down do this - Chad (as others) has made the CC2 and his other great products for the love of the systems and the hobby.  Nobody does this kind of stuff to get rich.

 

Is the CC2 worth $200?  Absolutely.  Considering that you can place 99.99% of the entire 2600/7800 library on one cart alone makes it worth two or three times that price.

 

Can everyone afford a CC2 at $200?  Unfortunately not, different people have (or not) different levels of discretionary income.  But not everyone can afford a rare cart for hundreds of dollars either.

 

It's also a matter of priority and what the value of an item is to you versus what the owner can/will sell it for.  Would I pay hundreds of dollars for a Motorodeo?  No, for me it's just not even close to being worth it.  It doesn't mean the cart isn't worth it or doesn't carry that value, it just means it's not worth it to me.  By the same token I would have paid $400 for the CC2 if that's what it had to be priced at.

 

It would also seem as I suspected that a fair number of people do not actually know what the CC2 really provides.

 

One other note - Chad went and made a second run of CC2s so that all the people who missed the first run would be able to get the finest multisystem "multicart" ever made.  I seriously hope he doesn't get burned with the cost of unsold or undersold inventory as a result.  I for one am hoping that he takes on another classic system next

934419[/snapback]

 

Very well spoken!

I certainly am not trying to stirr up any anomosity in the community! I love both my SCPU enabled, S-vhs hooked up C128D as much as my Composite outputted 7800, heck they share the same TV!!

 

Due to financial straights (cat's leg getting amputated next week!) I must stick by my $100 conviction. PLUS I'd need to get a win-clone to run it as I do all of my computer work on a G5 iMac!!

Edited September 19, 2005 by MaDDuck

[jetset]

So...when will the decision be made (if any) on the discounted/sellout price?

[shadow460]

Hey, I think I'll make the quotes look messed up this time!

Sorry, guys, he asked for it and I'm digging in!

 

Danno:

 

Clearly, someone who thinks that $75 is a good price for something that costs nearly twice that to produce, will NEVER understand the difference between an emulator and the CC2. No matter how hard you try to explain it.

 

That's like calling a Ferrari and a Big Wheel the same thing.

 

I'll just shake my head and walk away from this thread.

 

Shadow:

Clearly someone who wonders why I'd pay $40 for a single game instead of paying $200 for something else doesn't appreciate that the $40 game is the second rarest mass produced game for the system.

 

 

Danno:

 

You don't like being singled out?

 

Shadow:

I love it. It gives me an opportunity to have constructive conversation with someone who apparently thinks I'm a moron.

 

Danno:

You have a habit of posting bad/wrong information and opinions that are rather abrasive/unnecessary.

Shadow:

Nobody even try my ideas for repairing driving controllers, bad carts, the Sega Game Gear, etc. Don't listen to my advice in the HSC--you'll evidently lose!

Oh, ATARI SUCKS!! Is that better, Danno?

Danno:

Frankly, I find your tone and most of your commentary insulting to the intelligence of most of the people here, but especially those of us who've been involved with the Atari emulation and development community for any length of time.

Shadow:

Chad? Curt? Schmutzpuppe? Mitch?

Did I offend you? My, there are so many people I missed!

 

Danno:

I just thought I'd show you how YOU sound to everyone else.

shadow:

Sorry, man I hear with my ears. I can't see a sound at all. Let me have my eyes checked.

All you're really doing is showing the community something about yourself.

 

I might not be any more right that you for posting all this, as you haven't asked for it. You've been screaming that you wanted to read this so loud I can hear you all the way to Oklahoma City.

 

Danno, get off my back. Period.

 

PS I don't think Atari is bad at all--just wanted to clear that up with the majority of the community.

Anyone else care to admit what price they voted for?

Edited September 20, 2005 by shadow460

[supercat]

However, the CC2 is a necessarily much more complex device than the MMC64.  A quick visual inspection alone of the two devices will tell you why the CC2 costs more. 

934419[/snapback]

 

If all one wanted to do was add an MMC interface to the 2600, one could probably do it for under $15 quantity one. The same adapter could even work on the '64 or '2600 (just plug it into a joystick port). Such an adapter would be pretty useless unless the system in question already had software installed to support it, but it could be built.

 

I don't have a CC2 here, but let's compare the contents of a CC2 with an MMC64. The MMC64 has:

• MMC connector
  
• A CPLD
  
• Some flash
  

The MMC64 uses the 64's processor and memory to do most of the 'work', so it doesn't need to do anything on its own. Now the CC2:

• MMC connector
  
• CPLD
  
• flash
  
• A decent microcontroller
  
• An oscillator to drive the microcontroller
  
• Some RAM
  

Fair bit more stuff there. On power-up, the CC2 can't use the Atari's 6502 to control everything because the CPLD isn't set up properly. The MMC64 can use an EEPROM-based CPLD since its configuration will never change; the CC2, by contrast, must be configurable.

 

I suspect that it would probably be possible to cost-reduce the CC2 a fair amount by eliminating the micro and replacing it with a small ROM and a few discrete gates. If the CPLD kept its outputs weakly pulled high until it was configured, this other logic could allow the CC2 to boot from ROM and have the main processor set up the CPLD configuration. Engineering all this so it actually worked, however, would be a severe challenge and even if the cheaper product sold more units I don't think the engineering costs would be recouped.

[+Mitch]

Danno and Shadow,

 

Take it easy guys, no need to get personal. Everyone has the right to their own opinion whether you agree with them or not.

 

My own opinion is that the CC2 will go back to the $300 range once the second run is gone. So don't wait and regret it.

[shadow460]

Soory, Mitch. That goes for the rest of the community, too.

I just had to, though, and now I'm done with this argument.

 

I wonder how one will come by a CC2 when they're sold out? Mitch, your post indicates that they will be available somewhere, so I'm curious as to where.

 

As for the sellout price, I'd probably buy one now if it hits $100. I've been thinking a lot about something Bruce said about using it for programming, and I know he knows his stuff.

 

Even so, I'm going to be happy making some of my own carts, and playing from the actual carts that have been made.

There's just something about holding the real cart, and having it for what it is, whether it's Galaga, Tank Command, or the CC2 itself.

I'm not arguing or trying to tear down the CC2. I'm just saying when you hold a cart, and can tangibly see it, knowing that it's Tank Command, that's different from playing a copy of the game from the bin file.

[Danno]

For the record, I've got no beef with you shadow. You're entitled to your opinion.

 

The fact is I offered mine on this thread, and you quickly quoted me and replied to it as if you had to defend your opinion against mine, which you didn't need to do.

 

But the way you worded it was kinda snappy, like you thought I was targetting you personally or something when I said Chad shoudn't sell himself short on the price of the CC2.

 

As far as the comment on Mean 18, I simply don't like the fact that people drive up the price of so called "rare" carts that were made 18 years ago, when the person raking in the dough had nothing to do with the creation of the product, but merely is profiting on someone else's work.

 

Whereas Chad has spent coutless hours developing the vastly intricate CC2, only to have people compare his work to a software emulator, and almost in a derogatory manner.

 

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it sounded to me.

 

I apologize if my defense of one of my prized possesions got a little out of hand.

[cschell]

So...when will the decision be made (if any) on the discounted/sellout price? 

934451[/snapback]

 

I'm not sure actually. I have a few things to consider, and some kinds souls have actually placed orders today. (Thanks you VERY MUCH.)

 

I will post in this thread when I make a decision.

 

Chad

[sku_u]

I really wouldn't put Multicarts, Emulators or the CC2 in the same categories. At least to me they are very different creatures.

933405[/snapback]

 

Clearly, someone who thinks that $75 is a good price for something that costs nearly twice that to produce, will NEVER understand the difference between an emulator and the CC2. No matter how hard you try to explain it.

 

That's like calling a Ferrari and a Big Wheel the same thing.

 

I'll just shake my head and walk away from this thread.

933473[/snapback]

 

 

Dude, get over it.

Love the comment you posted in the Mean 18 thread, too.

 

And just how am I supposed to know what Chad paid for the parts in a CC2!? Did he not say that some of the prices were well below his cost?

 

This is not the first time you've singled me out in some type of an argument, Danno. Please do not continue this.

933599[/snapback]

 

 

You don't like being singled out?

 

You have a habit of posting bad/wrong information and opinions that are rather abrasive/unnecessary. Frankly, I find your tone and most of your commentary insulting to the intelligence of most of the people here, but especially those of us who've been involved with the Atari emulation and development community for any length of time.

 

I just thought I'd show you how YOU sound to everyone else.

934223[/snapback]

 

Let's stop derailing Chad's thread please. If you two have a difference of opinion, please take it to PM. Thanks.

[cschell]

Hi everyone,

 

Since there has been some speculation, here's what I can remember off the top of my head as CC2 components:

 

FPGA

512k SRAM

40 Pin Socket

Voltage Regulator

MMC Socket

Stereo Audio Jack (for serial port)

2 Triple Schmitt Triggers

Battery Holder

Lithium Battery

RS-232 to TTL level shifter

Ferrite cores for RF decoupling on serial lines

2 CPLDs*

256K Flash RAM*

32K Flash RAM*

4K NVRAM*

(* All contained in a single IC)

Programming Header

Boot/Main Jumper

Several capacitors and resistors

 

Stereo Audio to Serial Cable

Modified Cartridge Case

Cartridge Label

Software CD ROM

 

Sadly with all those parts, the custom cables, and case modifications the labor assembly charges were surprisingly high.

 

If you'd like some technical information I have a write up at http://www.schells.com/techdocs.txt

 

Chad

[cschell]

Hi,

 

Since the flash BIOS upgadeability of the MMC64 was listed as a feature that made it better than the CC2, I thought I would clarify the the flash OS inside the CC2 is also flash upgradeable.

 

In fact both flash banks are independently upgradeable. The smaller one provides an emergency boot backup in case something goes wrong while upgrading the primary one, such as a power failure.

 

It was using this upgradeability that allowed me to release version 2 of the OS that provided support for submenus. (Something I still need to add to my site. )

 

Chad

(And for the record I know nothing about the MMC64, so please do NOT take this as a comparison of the two products.)

[+batari]

even the 2600 userbase is probably huge compared to the 7800 userbase.

934419[/snapback]

I agree with this - and this is likely the reason why the CC2 hasn't sold out at $200. I have heard that multicarts for other systems (i.e. O2, Vectrex and Astrocade) didn't exactly sell briskly since the userbase was so small.

 

I realize that Chad worked really hard to make the CC2 for the 7800, and the library of games is larger than the CC. There is definitely value in a menu-driven multicart instead of having to load games individually from a portable CD player. But ironically, I think that making it 7800-only makes it harder to sell than if it also worked on a 2600, partially because many 2600 gamers don't care for 7800 games, and also because of the extra cost it requires.

 

Don't get me wrong - I do think that $200 is reasonable for a great piece of engineering that is the CC2, I just think this is a classic case of supply and demand. What something is "worth" is simply what someone will pay for it, not what the armchair appraisers here say. Now that nearly everyone who was willing to pay $200 for one already has, the supply exceeds the demand, so it's "worth" less.

[supercat]

Now that nearly everyone who was willing to pay $200 for one already has, the supply exceeds the demand, so it's "worth" less.

934773[/snapback]

 

Perceived scarcity also plays an amazing role in determining prices. Someone else joked that as soon as Chad sells out, the things will sell for $300 on ebay. I don't know if that's quite true, but I would expect that there are a number of users who, if told that they had to spend $200 today or never ever be able to get a CC2 would do so; many of these users, however, see no particular rush and so they're perfectly happy to survive without a CC2 until tomorrow, and the day after, etc.

[+Mitch]

Now that nearly everyone who was willing to pay $200 for one already has, the supply exceeds the demand, so it's "worth" less.

934773[/snapback]

 

Perceived scarcity also plays an amazing role in determining prices. Someone else joked that as soon as Chad sells out, the things will sell for $300 on ebay. I don't know if that's quite true, but I would expect that there are a number of users who, if told that they had to spend $200 today or never ever be able to get a CC2 would do so; many of these users, however, see no particular rush and so they're perfectly happy to survive without a CC2 until tomorrow, and the day after, etc.

934805[/snapback]

 

Yeah, before the second run there was one on ebay that went for well over $400. The demand may be slow right now but once the regular supply is gone, the demand will still be there. If you want evidence just look at the Jag game Battlesphere.

 

Mitch

[Mot]

Now that nearly everyone who was willing to pay $200 for one already has, the supply exceeds the demand, so it's "worth" less.

934773[/snapback]

 

Perceived scarcity also plays an amazing role in determining prices. Someone else joked that as soon as Chad sells out, the things will sell for $300 on ebay. I don't know if that's quite true, but I would expect that there are a number of users who, if told that they had to spend $200 today or never ever be able to get a CC2 would do so; many of these users, however, see no particular rush and so they're perfectly happy to survive without a CC2 until tomorrow, and the day after, etc.

934805[/snapback]

 

After the first batch was gone and Chad said no more, one went on e-bay for $400.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Mot

[shadow460]

$400...

wow.

Edited September 20, 2005 by shadow460

[+remowilliams]

$400...

wow.

934853[/snapback]

Yup. It was only by luck that Chad had some unsold first run stock that I got my first CC2. I would have eaten mac and cheese for a month to have bought one for $400 if it was the only way, but I got lucky

[MaDDuck]

Impressive!!!!

I just LOVE the lively interactions here on AA, that's why I joined in the 1st. place.

 

The CC2 is an awesome feat of engeneering.

 

I personally would not use many of it's features.

 

In Bizarro world, I would have a CC2-lite which is a loaded multicart only possibly with a MMC/SD socket on it, with no high score cart. emu., or any development tools short of a scrollable menu.

 

But we don't live in Bizarro world, and a CC2 is just too big of a financial bite for me right now.

[Gregory DG]

How about offering discounted CC2's only to those people who have already purchased a first one? That way no one feels screwed for buying one at $200 only to have sell cheaper? And you could offer a deal for new buyers to get two for $200 + $100 (or whatever the final price will be.)

[Lord Helmet]

How about offering discounted CC2's only to those people who have already purchased a first one? That way no one feels screwed for buying one at $200 only to have sell cheaper? And you could offer a deal for new buyers to get two for $200 + $100 (or whatever the final price will be.)

934944[/snapback]

 

I dunno about that...seems like the nature of buying anything. If you are an early adopter, you pay the price.

[sku_u]

How about offering discounted CC2's only to those people who have already purchased a first one? That way no one feels screwed for buying one at $200 only to have sell cheaper? And you could offer a deal for new buyers to get two for $200 + $100 (or whatever the final price will be.)

934944[/snapback]

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I definitely don't feel screwed for spending $200 on this. Then again, I didn't buy it for investment as I know some did.

[ubersaurus]

How about offering discounted CC2's only to those people who have already purchased a first one? That way no one feels screwed for buying one at $200 only to have sell cheaper? And you could offer a deal for new buyers to get two for $200 + $100 (or whatever the final price will be.)

934944[/snapback]

 

 

If I already had one, I wouldn't want to buy a second, 100 dollars or no.

 

I know I for one never got it at 200 because I have a cuttle cart 1, and couldn't justify 200+ more just to play all the 7800 games. I can, however, justify a lower price to myself for that. Those people with it say it's worth 200, and they may be right-it does do plenty. But it's superfluous to me at that price.

 

It does suck that it may have to be sold under cost, but if you really want to move stock, it has to be taken into consideration.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

How about offering discounted CC2's only to those people who have already purchased a first one? That way no one feels screwed for buying one at $200 only to have sell cheaper? And you could offer a deal for new buyers to get two for $200 + $100 (or whatever the final price will be.)

934944[/snapback]

 

I dunno about that...seems like the nature of buying anything. If you are an early adopter, you pay the price.

934947[/snapback]

 

I can attest to that. I paid $500 for my first NUON DVD player. Of course, I was among the first to pick one up, but I'll never make that up if I sold it on eBay. Of course, the demand for the cc2 and an Extiva player are quite different.

 

No matter what the last solution is, I want to get one, although I'll have to save up on for it. I don't want to miss out on this great piece of hardware.