A little reminiscing and more...

[eegt97]

Ah... the Atari 5200 Super System. What a great Christmas present it was back in 1982. So many in my neighborhood had a 2600 and I didn't have anything. But then I first started up Pac-Man and Centipede and realised I had arcade quality games that others didn't. How cool that was. Memories of Galaxian contests with Dad and Baseball/Soccer games with with my brother stand out. I remember after a couple of broken controllers and a fly-by-night repair man that took off with our system, I wrote Atari asking if it was still possible to obtain the 5200 (At this point you couldn't find it in stores). They sent me a catalog and we got the 5200 and another cart - Rescue on Fractulus - that kept me busy until finally I gave way to the NES.

 

Anyway, I have never liked the emulator support for the 5200 and decided I would go for it on my own. The emulator I came up with is still in the early stages, but I think game compatibility is pretty good. I thought this would be a good place to find people to give me feedback. I'm most interested in game compatiblity at this point, but comments on every aspect are welcome. Be sure to read the documentation, as configuration may be a little confusing (but powerful?) at this point. Thanks in advance for all your feedback.

 

Thanks,

Brian

 

]http://home.cfl.rr.com/jberlin/kat5200/index.html]

[+-^CrossBow^-]

HOLY CRAP!!!!

 

This Emu even runs Ron's latest demo build of Adventure II! Man this is screaming for a front end but otherwise the graphics full screen and off seem to be very accurate. The sound is still a bit off (Especially in Frogger), and the control scheme isn't for the faint of heart.

 

But for a first release...the compatibility is outstanding. This is an emu I am excited to watch!

 

Looking good for emulation projects this year...with ProSystem for the 7800 and now Kat5200...

 

Thank you much and keep up the good work!!!

Edited December 8, 2005 by -^Cro§Bow^-

[JB]

Anyone attempting to improve the state of 5200 emulation automatically gets my support.

[eegt97]

HOLY CRAP!!!!

 

This Emu even runs Ron's latest demo build of Adventure II! Man this is screaming for a front end but otherwise the graphics full screen and off seem to be very accurate. The sound is still a bit off (Especially in Frogger), and the control scheme isn't for the faint of heart.

 

But for a first release...the compatibility is outstanding. This is an emu I am excited to watch!

 

Looking good for emulation projects this year...with ProSystem for the 7800 and now Kat5200...

 

Thank you much and keep up the good work!!!

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Thanks for the comments. Your right, the control scheme definitely needs improvement. My thoughts were having something where you could set a default (say keyboard or joystick) and then be able set up different controls for different carts (say the mouse for the trackball games, or the 2 stick 1 controller mode for Space Dungeon). That way you set everything up one time and never need to worry about it.

 

Also, after re-reading my post, to say I don't like the emulators for the 5200 is a bit inaccurate. I definitely like VSS and Atari800 especially, and know from first hand experience how much work goes into it. Also, having different emulators to compare to gave me an advantage. It just seems like there was something I wanted that was missing from each one.

 

As far as a frontend goes, I plan on an In-GUI menu that should help out (and maybe help make configuration a little more easier).

 

Thanks again for your feedback.

[classics]

Interesting, is this based on any of the existing emulators?

[DanBoris]

Very nice work! The compatibility is excellent, you can run games in your first release that my emulator still can't run after all these years. Decathlon and MrDo's Castle have always been problems for me, but they run great on your emulator. You also managed to find the tricky little controller issue that would cause Star Trek not to start.

 

A few issues I have spotted:

 

Most of the graphics in Kaboom are missing, I am guessing that you haven't implemetned the GRAFP0..3 registers which are used to write directly the the PM hardware bypassing the DMA

 

Alternate version of some carts do not work. This is probably a cart loading problem. 5200 carts where not all dumped in uniform ways, so there are multiple version of the same rom image floating around for some cartirdges. For example there is a 4K and 16K version of Kaboom, the 16K works, but the 4K doesn't.

 

Dan

[eegt97]

Interesting, is this based on any of the existing emulators?

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Except for pokeysound, it's all from scratch. I certainly looked at atari800 source when I was trying to debug problems and implementing things undocumented though.

[eegt97]

Very nice work! The compatibility is excellent, you can run games in your first release that my emulator still can't run after all these years. Decathlon and MrDo's Castle have always been problems for me, but they run great on your emulator. You also managed to find the tricky little controller issue that would cause Star Trek not to start.

Thanks! One thing that probably helped was I didn't have to worry as much about speed as you probably did back in the day. It made it easier to concentrate on accuracy. I found a blurb about the Star Trek starting (bit fluctuating) somewhere, I can't remember where now.

 

A few issues I have spotted:

 

Most of the graphics in Kaboom are missing, I am guessing that you haven't implemetned the GRAFP0..3 registers which are used to write directly the the PM hardware bypassing the DMA

 

I know I allow direct writes to the registers. When I first did PM graphics, I only updated at the beginning of a scanline. I may still have an some issue there. I'll try to look at it when I get home. Thanks!

 

Alternate version of some carts do not work. This is probably a cart loading problem. 5200 carts where not all dumped in uniform ways, so there are multiple version of the same rom image floating around for some cartirdges. For example there is a 4K and 16K version of Kaboom, the 16K works, but the 4K doesn't.

 

Dan

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Your absolutely right. It was something I meant to look at before coming out with this and never did. I will look at it. Thanks for all the feedback!

 

Brian

[eegt97]

Most of the graphics in Kaboom are missing, I am guessing that you haven't implemetned the GRAFP0..3 registers which are used to write directly the the PM hardware bypassing the DMA

 

Dan

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So basically, there is direct access to the registers but then I don't update the arrays used to actually draw and do collision detection unless there is DMA. Thanks for pointing this out.

[+Cafeman]

I certainly wasn't expecting this thread to be about a new 5200 emulator! KUDOS * 10!

 

I haven't tried yours out yet, but one thing that really bugs me about all the current emulators is the color palette is incorrect. If somebody could solve this, and actually give the corrected information to the other emu developers, that'd be awesome!

 

Atari800win is very close, but even so, as you get above $40 color values, it gets odd compared to a real machine --- blues turn green, some colors turn purple, etc.

[Vic George 2K3]

Can't get it to run on my system, but it's good to see some more emulator work being done.

[Paranoid]

I'm dying for a 5200 emulator that supports a intuitive front end *and* powerful keyboard mapping (I've got an X-Arcade dual joystick and it just doesn't work right with any of the current emulators).

[eegt97]

Well, hopefully I can help you out there. I think in about a week or so I'll be done with the GUI and I am working on implementing an auto-detect feature for the controls. So basically you pick the 5200 controller part you want to emulate and the program prompts you to perform the action you want to associate with that part (or stick direction). From what I can tell, your controller looks like a keyboard to the PC, so I think it would work.

[Paranoid]

Well, hopefully I can help you out there.  I think in about a week or so I'll be done with the GUI and I am working on implementing an auto-detect feature for the controls.  So basically you pick the 5200 controller part you want to emulate and the program prompts you to perform the action you want to associate with that part (or stick direction).  From what I can tell, your controller looks like a keyboard to the PC, so I think it would work.

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This sounds real exciting. I've been literally looking for a decent emulation solution on the 5200 for a decade now... The other ones out there are nice, but they're almost all really Atari 400/800 emulators with the 5200 as a bonus. A dedicated 5200 emulator is overdue.

 

Of course, the X-Arcade has digital sticks, so, it won't be *perfect*... but, I'm still excited to try it out.

[Paranoid]

There is a man who loves his daughter above all else.... Who else would allow a toddler to handle Atari 5200 joysticks?

 

Either that, or the sticks are already dead.

 

My girl spit-up on one of my X-Box controllers when she was around 9 months old. The analog triggers have never worked right on it since.

[Paranoid]

Well... this emulator probably could have saved me $30 plus however much it is going to take to maintain actual Atari 5200 joysticks. It works *great* with my Thrustmaster DT Rumble PS2/PC joypad... It is like being able to hook up a PS/XBox controller to the Atari 5200.

 

Configuration was a bit complex... it really needs a polished front end... but the emulation itself is incredible... and *fast*... on my 3.4ghz Intel it is actually too fast... faster than the actual console... It is like playing Countermeasure on speed.

 

My guess is you're a linux guy at heart? You guys do love your command line text configuration files.

[Paranoid]

So, I've played quite a bit on this. I *really* like the joystick configuration. Easier than hand-configuring an X config file. But it works really well. Best joystick implementation on a 5200 emulator I've come across, and that means a LOT.

 

Sound and colors are a little iffy at times.

 

It is an EXCELLENT Countermeasure emulator, as I mentioned. Runs a little fast, though. I'm afraid I'm going to get spoiled on the emulator and the actual console will seem frustratingly slow afterwards...

 

I've had a couple bins fail to load... lock up... and got a Not Responding on the application. Especially in full screen mode. Had to alt-tab and bring up the task manager and terminate the app. I mostly have been playing Countermeasure... so I didn't take careful notes, but I'll be more detailed the next time I run across it. Basically, in full screen, some carts won't load... the screen just goes black and hangs...

[Paranoid]

So, I've noticed something. I don't know if it is a bug, or a system issue, or a driver issue...

 

I'm going to use Star Raiders and Countermeasure as an example.

 

I'm using a Thrustmaster DT Rumble joypad. I've got it in analog mode. It is basically a PS2 controller with two XBox style triggers.

 

It responds pretty good in Countermeasure. The problem is subtle in this game, but becomes absolutely aggravating in Star Raiders.

 

Once you move, it seems like there is zero dead-area, so you really *can't* stop moving. You can in Countermeasure... but it is very difficult to find dead center. In Star Raiders, it is next to impossible... which makes it very difficult to travel from sector to sector (even worse than with the original 5200 joysticks, by far).

 

I'm sure this is more of an issue with the DT joypad drivers, and I'm not sure if there is anything that can even be done... I've noticed the same problem with this controller in GTA San Andreas (my dude always wants to run in circles to the right)... and I've noticed this kind of issue with PC joysticks and joypads in general, which is one reason I gave up on PC gaming. I was hoping that USB would have addressed this problem. I just wanted to give you a heads up.

 

If I switch from analog mode to digital mode with my joypad, then once I move, that is it... it is either always-on left, right, up or down. You can never center again. That leads me to believe I'm going to see the same results if I map my X-Arcade to this emulator, as that has digital 8 way sticks.

 

I'm so impressed with this emulator, otherwise.

[eegt97]

There is a man who loves his daughter above all else.... Who else would allow a toddler to handle Atari 5200 joysticks?

 

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It's definitely dangerous with the controllers in her hands. You forget how strong they really are at that age. She likes the trackball especially, which is more robust, but I'm concerned about those little fingers getting caught

 

My guess is you're a linux guy at heart? You guys do love your command line text configuration files.

I'm going 21st century with the next version and using XML for everything combined with the GUI.

 

Sound and colors are a little iffy at times.

 

It is an EXCELLENT Countermeasure emulator, as I mentioned. Runs a little fast, though. I'm afraid I'm going to get spoiled on the emulator and the actual console will seem frustratingly slow afterwards...

 

I've had a couple bins fail to load... lock up... and got a Not Responding on the application. Especially in full screen mode. Had to alt-tab and bring up the task manager and terminate the app. I mostly have been playing Countermeasure... so I didn't take careful notes, but I'll be more detailed the next time I run across it. Basically, in full screen, some carts won't load... the screen just goes black and hangs...

The colors are borrowed from an older version of atari800, I need to update that. I've also started looking at the "formula" for producing the palette and the how GTIA delays the color signal to produce hues but haven't gotten anywhere yet. Sound is going to take a little longer

 

Hmm... I'm not sure about the speed issue, I'll need to investigate. I'm assuming the frame rate shown in the console window when you quit is reasonable (58-60). I'll do some comparisons with my machines.

 

There are some bad dumps out there of the roms, but if they load in other emulators it might be that they are alternate versions of the roms that I didn't support in the original version. When this happens if you alt-tab to the console window and see a "debug>" prompt, it means the cpu emulation has crashed. You can type "q<CR>" to quit. If you can let me know the roms and their sizes (32K,16K,etc) I'll look into it. If you don't see the prompt, the app has crashed and I got another issue to look at.

 

Once you move, it seems like there is zero dead-area, so you really *can't* stop moving. You can in Countermeasure... but it is very difficult to find dead center. In Star Raiders, it is next to impossible... which makes it very difficult to travel from sector to sector (even worse than with the original 5200 joysticks, by far).

I don't recall seeing this problem with my Logitech Rumblepad, it might be something where the stick is moving back to center too fast for me to see. Generally, it is advised that you ignore values +/- 5% of center to get rid of jitter with PC analog sticks. I'll take another look at the logic to see if I can do this another way (maybe an extra check after a couple of frames).

 

If I switch from analog mode to digital mode with my joypad, then once I move, that is it... it is either always-on left, right, up or down. You can never center again.

I'm betting this is my issue for sure. I'm probably not resetting the emulated Pots back to center when you let up of the pad. I'll take a look and fix for next release.

 

Thanks for all the excellent feedback!

 

Brian

[eegt97]

That leads me to believe I'm going to see the same results if I map my X-Arcade to this emulator, as that has digital 8 way sticks.

 

I'm so impressed with this emulator, otherwise.

1009823[/snapback]

Is this the one that is seen by the system like a keyboard? In other words, are the 8 directions mapped to keyboard keys? If so it might work since keyboard controls should work correctly. Might be worth a try.

[Paranoid]

That leads me to believe I'm going to see the same results if I map my X-Arcade to this emulator, as that has digital 8 way sticks.

 

I'm so impressed with this emulator, otherwise.

1009823[/snapback]

Is this the one that is seen by the system like a keyboard? In other words, are the 8 directions mapped to keyboard keys? If so it might work since keyboard controls should work correctly. Might be worth a try.

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It is... plugs into the PS-2 port... and I agree, after playing around with the keyboard as a controller, I've got a good feeling the X-Arcade might do the trick pretty good.

 

Interestingly, I rellocated the Thrustmaster from my downstairs 3.4ghz to a 1.7 Ghz I have upstairs... and the problem is much less noticable. It is still a problem... but not nearly as bad... PC game I/O sucks. I should just get a modded xBox and run it on that.

 

Everyone complains about the Atari 5200 joysticks... in 30 years they haven't figured out how to make a decent PC joystick...

 

Well, that isn't true... I bet the Stella Adaptor with an Atari 8 way works *excellent*.

[Paranoid]

It does run very fast on my systems, the 3.4ghz or a 1.7ghz... and PacMan, the sounds are way off and the colors aren't *perfect*.

 

I ran it side by side with my actual 5200. The sounds were really noticable. The speed wasn't that big of a deal, and in a certain sense, is kind of cool.

 

Interesting thing... explosions on Star Raiders... the slow down that happens... I always thought it was a hardware thing... but it seems like it might actually be part of the code... because there is the same marked slowdown on the emulator as on the real console.

 

Still my favorite 5200 emulator so far... and I sure hope you keep supporting it.

[Rybags]

Slow-downs in Star Raiders are due to lack of CPU cycles.

 

To see evidence, try switching to LR scan or the map during hyperspace or when there's lots of screen action.

[Paranoid]

Slow-downs in Star Raiders are due to lack of CPU cycles.

 

To see evidence, try switching to LR scan or the map during hyperspace or when there's lots of screen action.

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I started playing around with a Torrent ROM package for the Atari 800 last night...

 

Star Raiders on the Atari 800 is an entirely different beast, I discovered. So that isn't a good basis for comparisson.

 

BUT... there was a port from the 5200 of Countermeasure... and the joypad works far better (albiet, with a kludged solution for rotating the turret of your tank, as the joystick becomes a "1 button 2600 joystick" in 8 bit emulation). Despite the funky control scheme, the tank will stop, and goes in the direction you tell it to (up, down, left right, or the other 4 diagonal directions). On the 5200 emulator, what I find is that when I release the direction, it is liable to snap back and go in the reverse of the direction I've just input.

 

This is with the same joypad, on the same PC... so, it must at least be *partially* how the emulator is interpeting joystick input. I was using Atari800Win+ as my emulator.

[eegt97]

Ok, I got a handle on both the digital D-Pad issue and analog issue (it really does show in Star Raiders). I need to make the analog solution more efficient but I think it will help with actual sticks as well (as far as centering goes).

 

I still need to look at the timing issue, but I have some ideas. From what you've said, I think I will make the throttle parameter an actual setting so you can adjust the speed as you like.

 

I'm almost embarrased to say it, but I haven't run it side by side with the system. I just got my system back up after Christmas and have been totally engrossed with the GUI and making it easier to use. Accuracy with color and sound should have been #1 priority, but it's kind of hard to dedicate to it when you know you need to make it easier to use to get the feedback you want.

 

I'll probably come out with another release before month's end. I don't how much color and sound improvements will be there (probably not much). They will be the priority for future releases.

 

Thanks for all your comments and if you find other issues, be sure to let me know.

 

Thanks,

Brian