5200 underappreciated

[NovaXpress]

But how am I supposed to sneak a 2600 into trig class?

[JagFan422]

get a pocketpc and a 2600 emu.

[NovaXpress]

get a pocketpc and a 2600 emu.

I'm assuming that was a joke.

[JagFan422]

not at all, i knew a couple people that bought Zodiacs for school just so they could play games and when it was questioned, they just told whomever it was a palm pilot, which it is. Same can be done with a pocket pc. Being as smart as you are to be in a trig class, it probably wouldn't be that far out of the norm to have a pocket pc in that class, it probably wouldn't raise that many flags, unless you had the sound on. I know if i had that stuff when i was in school, i know i would've got a lot less done than i did.

[Zonie]

No, they're not the same. The 8-bit computer line didn't have to suffer under those awful controllers. Even if they'd been auto-centering and perfectly reliable, they still would have been awful due to their ergonomics. This factor alone caused them to be subjected to much ridicule by Atari's own engineers.

 

I spent some time last night playing some games with my "broken" 5200 controllers. Even with the issues I had, i found them comfortable and fairly easy to use. They also look better than anything else before or since.

[Paranoid]

The fact is that the 400 or 800 is a small home computer. By definition, you're talking a lot more real estate for this than for a console. It isn't suitable for plugging into a television (even with a 40 column display). It is more complex, there are more things to fail on it, and, by virtue of it's nature in that space and time, it is rarer, with rarer components, and not as easy to support, maintain and replace. It only supports a CX40 style joystick, so while you can argue that virtually every 5200 game has been *ported* back to the 400/800 line, not every game is supported in a completely *native* mode on those PCs. Countermeasure is an example of why the 5200 is a *must* have, in my opinion. I don't want to reach up to the numeric keypad on my PC or to whatever keys are mapped on a 400/800 version to type in LEO once I hit the silo.

 

You've spent little or no time owning a classic Atari computer.

 

More real estate? The 800 isn't any bigger than the 5200. The 400 is a LOT smaller. So much for that.

Not suitable for a television? It looks quite good on a television

More things to fail? I've been through three 5200 units over the years. My original 800, which was once a store display, still works.

Only supports a CX40? No, it supports whatver contoller one might design for it. Why not just make those 5200 controllers for the PC? No reason why they couldn't have if that's what people wanted.

 

You're not able to see this from the proper perspective. Those of us who were the money-paying, new system-buying l33t gamers of the time did play the computer games and did see that the 5200 was just a 400 without a keyboard. Those l33t gamers were just as important for driving early sales back then and they crapped on the 5200 because they saw right through it.

 

I've left my original quote in there because I'm going to go back to it...

 

First off, how many Atari 8 bit PCs did you see hooked up to the family TV and tucked into an entertainment console or off on a shelf? The PC, by definition, needs a *desk*, several inches from a TV. Now... how many 8-bit systems were JUST the computer and a 13" TV with some joysticks out of the back? Specifically, how many Atari 8 Bit owners were using their fancy and expensive PC as a glorified console? Nope. They had a Tape deck, maybe a disk drive, a printer... some of those "peripherals". No bluetooth, wireless, or even ethernet back then. They all had to be hooked right up to the 8 Bit by cables... a cable to connect the devices, at least... and a cable to provide power to each device. With different obscure plugs for every peripheral you own. Unlike a console, where mom could tell you, "Clean up that mess" and you could throw all the controllers and carts into a box or bin, the 8 Bit had to lay claim to some permenent real-estate. Now... those fancy drives, tape and disk, are mechanical devices and prone to all kinds of problems... mechanical devices don't like it when they get dirty. They eat tapes... the drive heads get out of alignment. How many mechanical devices were attached to your typical console in the day? Maybe a standard, consumer grade tape drive, if you had a supercharger... that and the controllers... which, we've established, break. The more mechanical devices you hook up, the more failures you're going to experience. I never did own an Atari 8 bit. I had several friends who did... and in all cases, their machines were not in the den or the TV room but in a study. We didn't sit on the floor or the couch across from the 27" TV with the console strewn out across the floor between us, we sat at a desk several inches from an RGB monitor. Oddly enough, *every* other 8 bit home PC I owned was the same thing. The Adam, the C=128, countless C=64 systems, the Amiga 2000, a couple of ST systems... etc. etc. etc... Some may have spent some time hooked to a TV... but the TV was used in the capacity of a monitor, not as an actual television. People bought 8-bits specifically FOR their PC features. They didn't just stick to playing carts in them and using them as a console hooked up to the family TV. I don't need to have OWNED an Atari 8 Bit to know that. As for the joystick... your point is a "could be" while mine is a "really is". You can play ported 5200 games on an 8Bit, but only using an 8 way, directional joystick with one fire button. That is the REALITY of the situation. Again, using my original argument, you actually CAN get your CX40 *or* CX52 joystick converted to USB for use with a IA/86 based PC and the proper emulator. If you're going to push the 8 bit as a replacement for the 5200... then a more logical solution is to replace the whole lot with a PC running emulation with ported joysticks.

 

I think *you're* not seeing this from the proper perspective. The "money-paying, new system-buying l33t gamers" were then, as they have remained for the past 30 years, a fringe group of socially maladjusted Mathalete nerds who defy all market statistics and OFTEN make bad choices when it comes to technology purchases, because they're more impressed by technical specs. than real world issues. They're the guys who can't stop themselves from running out and buying a Beta, or an Amiga/ST, or a Syquest.

 

There is some disconnect here in your ability to accept this, that much is clear, but you're simply *wrong* on this one. A lot of the other areas where we disagree, your position has some thought and foundation to it. In this case, you're simply completely off-base.

 

It isn't that we're fanboys... it is clear that you and Zylon are "haters"... hatin' for no good reason.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Paranoid

[ZylonBane]

Wow, talk about losing the forest for the trees...

 

Just because an 8-bit computer CAN take over an entire desk, doesn't mean it MUST. It's equally happy in both roles. There's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from dropping an Atari 400 in front of the TV and using it as a pure cartridge-sucking game console.

 

In fact, IIRC the 400 only includes RF output.

[NovaXpress]

It isn't that we're fanboys... it is clear that you and Zylon are "haters"... hatin' for no good reason.

So much for your credibility.

 

I owned a fucking 800 and I know damn well that it wasn't any more complicated to hook up and maintain than a 5200. If you think that the hardcore gamers aren't the base for any system then you need to read a basic marketing book. That's the strategy for building a new system: hook the most devoted game players in order to build your base then go for the masses. That's how all the big companies think, but I guess you know better than those who do this for a living.

 

Stack up the systems and the basic peripherals. With just the trakball alone, the 5200 uses far more wires and takes up far more space than a loaded 800 setup. Fact.

 

You must be too young to know what happened back then or were too out of it to understand.

[Nukey Shay]

< had to compete with both television and video to compute

[JB]

Stack up the systems and the basic peripherals. With just the trakball alone, the 5200 uses far more wires and takes up far more space than a loaded 800 setup. Fact.

 

My 5200's wires = RF wire, controller wire. Suppose 2 controllers for Space Dungeon. Add a trackball wire for the conditions of the statement. I suppose a power supply wire, though that's nowhere near the 5200. So we've got 5, with 1 being out of the way behind the TV at all times.

 

The trakball and joystick won't be hooked up at the same time, and the second joystick won't be hooked up hardly ever. Stick 2 will rest in the 5200's storage case 99% of the time, and stick 1 will join it whenever the trackball is in use. Realistically, 3 cables is the relevant score to beat.

 

 

 

When set up my 800XL has the AV cable, a power cord, a joystick cord, an SIO cable to the disk drive, ANOTHER power cord for the disk drive... that's 5 cables. It matches the 5200's max, and it's nowhere NEAR loaded.

But my computer's max is also the relevant score, as there's no joystick storage and all the cables come to the same location.

 

 

 

The 5200 can also be stuck just about anywhere it fits. It's very easy to move, and you don't need it within arm's reach while using it anyways.

The computer has to have a home where it's easily accessable while in use on without being in the way when it's off, because it's a lot harder to move, since I have to juggle 2 large boxes whenever I relocate it, and trail 3 cords along behind it(both power cables and the AV cord). Or unhook it when I quit using it and rehook it when I want to use it again.

 

 

 

 

Your "fact" is actually complete and utter bullshit.

[NovaXpress]

As ZylonBane pointed out, there are many ways to hook up a system.

 

Picture a 5200 with trakball, a Wico stick or three, 2600 converter and the bigass attachments. Nasty, isn't it.

 

Picture me hooking my 800 up with one joystick for a game of Star Raiders. Very simple.

[jetset]

The fact is that the 400 or 800 is a small home computer. By definition, you're talking a lot more real estate for this than for a console. It isn't suitable for plugging into a television (even with a 40 column display). It is more complex, there are more things to fail on it, and, by virtue of it's nature in that space and time, it is rarer, with rarer components, and not as easy to support, maintain and replace. It only supports a CX40 style joystick, so while you can argue that virtually every 5200 game has been *ported* back to the 400/800 line, not every game is supported in a completely *native* mode on those PCs. Countermeasure is an example of why the 5200 is a *must* have, in my opinion. I don't want to reach up to the numeric keypad on my PC or to whatever keys are mapped on a 400/800 version to type in LEO once I hit the silo.

 

You've spent little or no time owning a classic Atari computer.

 

More real estate? The 800 isn't any bigger than the 5200. The 400 is a LOT smaller. So much for that.

Not suitable for a television? It looks quite good on a television

More things to fail? I've been through three 5200 units over the years. My original 800, which was once a store display, still works.

Only supports a CX40? No, it supports whatver contoller one might design for it. Why not just make those 5200 controllers for the PC? No reason why they couldn't have if that's what people wanted.

 

You're not able to see this from the proper perspective. Those of us who were the money-paying, new system-buying l33t gamers of the time did play the computer games and did see that the 5200 was just a 400 without a keyboard. Those l33t gamers were just as important for driving early sales back then and they crapped on the 5200 because they saw right through it.

 

I've left my original quote in there because I'm going to go back to it...

 

First off, how many Atari 8 bit PCs did you see hooked up to the family TV and tucked into an entertainment console or off on a shelf? The PC, by definition, needs a *desk*, several inches from a TV. Now... how many 8-bit systems were JUST the computer and a 13" TV with some joysticks out of the back? Specifically, how many Atari 8 Bit owners were using their fancy and expensive PC as a glorified console? Nope. They had a Tape deck, maybe a disk drive, a printer... some of those "peripherals". No bluetooth, wireless, or even ethernet back then. They all had to be hooked right up to the 8 Bit by cables... a cable to connect the devices, at least... and a cable to provide power to each device. With different obscure plugs for every peripheral you own. Unlike a console, where mom could tell you, "Clean up that mess" and you could throw all the controllers and carts into a box or bin, the 8 Bit had to lay claim to some permenent real-estate. Now... those fancy drives, tape and disk, are mechanical devices and prone to all kinds of problems... mechanical devices don't like it when they get dirty. They eat tapes... the drive heads get out of alignment. How many mechanical devices were attached to your typical console in the day? Maybe a standard, consumer grade tape drive, if you had a supercharger... that and the controllers... which, we've established, break. The more mechanical devices you hook up, the more failures you're going to experience. I never did own an Atari 8 bit. I had several friends who did... and in all cases, their machines were not in the den or the TV room but in a study. We didn't sit on the floor or the couch across from the 27" TV with the console strewn out across the floor between us, we sat at a desk several inches from an RGB monitor. Oddly enough, *every* other 8 bit home PC I owned was the same thing. The Adam, the C=128, countless C=64 systems, the Amiga 2000, a couple of ST systems... etc. etc. etc... Some may have spent some time hooked to a TV... but the TV was used in the capacity of a monitor, not as an actual television. People bought 8-bits specifically FOR their PC features. They didn't just stick to playing carts in them and using them as a console hooked up to the family TV. I don't need to have OWNED an Atari 8 Bit to know that. As for the joystick... your point is a "could be" while mine is a "really is". You can play ported 5200 games on an 8Bit, but only using an 8 way, directional joystick with one fire button. That is the REALITY of the situation. Again, using my original argument, you actually CAN get your CX40 *or* CX52 joystick converted to USB for use with a IA/86 based PC and the proper emulator. If you're going to push the 8 bit as a replacement for the 5200... then a more logical solution is to replace the whole lot with a PC running emulation with ported joysticks.

 

I think *you're* not seeing this from the proper perspective. The "money-paying, new system-buying l33t gamers" were then, as they have remained for the past 30 years, a fringe group of socially maladjusted Mathalete nerds who defy all market statistics and OFTEN make bad choices when it comes to technology purchases, because they're more impressed by technical specs. than real world issues. They're the guys who can't stop themselves from running out and buying a Beta, or an Amiga/ST, or a Syquest.

 

There is some disconnect here in your ability to accept this, that much is clear, but you're simply *wrong* on this one. A lot of the other areas where we disagree, your position has some thought and foundation to it. In this case, you're simply completely off-base.

 

It isn't that we're fanboys... it is clear that you and Zylon are "haters"... hatin' for no good reason.

 

 

....for the record, when I said Nova was a hater...it was accented with a " " just meant as a bit of sarcasm since it seems (lately) he has a bit of sand in his vagina. (hey there he is again) But overall his opinions tend to have a bit of objectivity to them. Though I mostly dont agree with them, theres a huge difference between stating opinions and doing the hit and run flame that has nothing to do with intelligent conversation and all to do with trying to piss someone off.

Sometime yesterday, this whole topic too a nosedive and became not worth reading. The anti-5200 flaming has begun and really Paranoid...you're shovelling shit against the tide at this point...

I wish you luck.

[ZylonBane]

Good god Jetset, you just blindly quoted over a page of text. Learn how to trim your replies.

[JB]

As ZylonBane pointed out, there are many ways to hook up a system.

 

Picture a 5200 with trakball, a Wico stick or three, 2600 converter and the bigass attachments. Nasty, isn't it.

 

Picture me hooking my 800 up with one joystick for a game of Star Raiders. Very simple.

Now you're changing things to shore up a fundamentally flawed argument.

 

You said a 5200 with JUST a trackball vs a loaded 800. That implies to me the 5200 is stock except for the trackball, and the 800 is full to the brim.

2 joysticks and a trackball vs a disk drive, a tape drive, a printer, 4 joysticks, 4 sets of paddles, and God knows what else.

 

The fact that you're now having to bias things in the exact opposite direction to continue to support your original argument just proves how absurd it really was to start with.

 

 

I took what seemed like a rational comparison. My sample computer had less stuff than your comparison computer, and my sample 5200 had more stuff than your comparison 5200.

 

One computer, one disk drive, and one joystick lets you play most games, and I don't know if there's anything on cassette that anyone actually cares about(old computers are outside my knowledge base). I can add a tape deck for 2 cables.

A 5200 with 2 sticks lets you play all games. Added the trackball by request, though it made the comparison less equal and slightly biased towards the computer.

 

 

 

If you're genuinely using a 1-stick A800 setup, that's great. You've lost all the floppy-based games and tape-based games(are there any cassette exclusives?), but it's a much cleaner setup.

If you just unhooked the peripherals and stuffed them under the bed for the sake of beating a 5200... that's pathetic.

 

 

 

I suggest you say what you mean in the future. If you mean a 5200 with all the trimmings is a bigger mess than a bare-bones A800, say that. Don't say something patently absurd like "With just the trakball alone, the 5200 uses far more wires and takes up far more space than a loaded 800 setup. "

Edited March 28, 2006 by JB

[Zonie]

Methinks this is degenerating into a twisted fanboy flamewar and needing a lock. Arguing over 5200 and 800 is kind of like arguing whether a late Camaro or Firebird is better...they are the same damn car.

 

For the record, my 400 sits on the ottoman between the TV and the couch when I use it.

[NovaXpress]

I just did the experiment. My 800 with disk drive, joystick, paddles and wires takes up no more space than my 5200 with just my 2 Wico and 2 Atari sticks. No trak-ball even.

(yes, the oversized Wico sticks were the difference maker)

Edited March 28, 2006 by NovaXpress

[vdub_bobby]

Methinks this is degenerating into a twisted fanboy flamewar and needing a lock. Arguing over 5200 and 800 is kind of like arguing whether a late Camaro or Firebird is better...they are the same damn car.

No kidding. This is Atari Nerdity at it's finest:

Your 5200 is teh sux0r!

No, your A800 sux!

Nyah nyah nyah, I'm not listening!

Edited March 28, 2006 by vdub_bobby

[NovaXpress]

No way. The "Does the 5200 have a framebuffer" thread will forver be the pinnacle of pointless geekiness.

[vdub_bobby]

Yeah, but that one was ruined by pointless cursing.

 

If you can't win by measuring the bottom of your 5200 with a tape measure and summing cable length, then your nerd credentials are in serious doubt.

[NovaXpress]

There's many ways to go about it. You have to consider real-world usuage as well as pure physical dimensions. How might a system with games and peripherals be crammed into a conventional AV stand of the time? How much carpet space is available? Many PC users set their pieces up all over the place while console users tend to . . .

 

What the fuck are we doing with our lives? I'm going out to buy a manual on CPR or something I can actually make use of.

[Paranoid]

This really is ridiculious. You can keep splitting hairs on "might have beens" trying to argue this point, but the simple fact is that people set up their PCs in studies at desks. They didn't hook them up to TVs in dens and living rooms. And your logic still ultimately returns to the logic that an emulator is the way to go for *any* retro machine. If an Atari 800 can accurately emulate an Atari 5200, and a modern PC can accurately emulate both... then the modern PC is the way to go. In theory, this is true enough. In practice, we buy these old machines that are hard to support and repair because it isn't true.

 

Clearly, the rational voices in this discussion agree with me and understand my point exactly. You do too, you're just enjoying being contrary for the sake of argument....

[Nukey Shay]

This whole thread is a "might-have-been", because the truth is that Atari released an inferior machine (for the time) because the 7800 was shelved over a dispute. So they quickly remodeled first generation computer hardware to be their next generation console, in order to compete with the introduction of the ColecoVision. Upon it's release, the seeds toward the console crash were already planted (which began in late '82 BTW...just that the full effect wasn't seen until '84).

 

Had they known that the console crash was unavoidable, I doubt that either company would have designed a new console.

 

But they did.

 

And we can still enjoy them.

 

And all games that "might have been" on the 5200 can still be enjoyed on it's native hardware via the Atari home computers.

[Zonie]

No way. The "Does the 5200 have a framebuffer" thread will forver be the pinnacle of pointless geekiness.

gee willikers, I mustav missed that festival.

[ZylonBane]

The argument was actually about the 8-bit Atari computers, not 5200. And it wasn't so much an argument, as it was several people trying to beat some sense into a clueless lunatic.

[Bryan]

This whole thread is a "might-have-been", because the truth is that Atari released an inferior machine (for the time) because the 7800 was shelved over a dispute. So they quickly remodeled first generation computer hardware to be their next generation console, in order to compete with the introduction of the ColecoVision. Upon it's release, the seeds toward the console crash were already planted (which began in late '82 BTW...just that the full effect wasn't seen until '84).

 

I thought the 7800 thing started after the 5200 came out, and it was the 3200 that was shelved.

 

-Bry