Redeption Adaptor Alternatives?

[Shawn]

Hey All,

 

Seeing as the Redeption adaptor is quite pricey (hell it cost more than a 5200 does) I was wondering is there are any cheaper alternatives to use a normal (normal as in genesis\2600\7800) controllers with the 5200? I sthere a home job project box or anything like that anyone has a diagram for. I just can't see myself benig able to shell out $50 USD for this adaptor and I know the 5200 controllers suck so beofre commiting myself into getting a 5200 I want to make sure I'm gonna be able to use a decent controller.

 

Thanks

 

Shawn Sr.

[jsoper]

I sthere a home job project box or anything like that anyone has a diagram for. I just can't see myself benig able to shell out $50 USD for this adaptor

1017530[/snapback]

Sure, here's Jay Tilton's circuit:

homemade masterplay

With a fully wired dsub15 cable and project box, it will only cost $25 or so, plus about 8 hours of time for shopping, soldering, drilling, and debug. Hopefully it works at the end.

(I think there's a moral about mass-production in there somewhere)

[Shawn]

Sure, here's Jay Tilton's circuit:

homemade masterplay

With a fully wired dsub15 cable and project box, it will only cost $25 or so, plus about 8 hours of time for shopping, soldering, drilling, and debug.  Hopefully it works at the end.

(I think there's a moral about mass-production in there somewhere) 

1017551[/snapback]

 

 

Well, After looking at that, I think I might just buy one after all. I don't mind the work but for the cost to make the circut and all it's work getting one pre-built after all I suppose. Looks like I will just have to save some cash for the redemption if the time comes I do decide to get a 5200. That or I'm gonn ahave to get used to the 5200 controller.

 

Is a fully referbished 5200 controller still THAT bad to use? I've never owned a 5200 before. Is it worse than the 7800 Prolines?

[jetset]

 

Is a fully referbished 5200 controller still THAT bad to use? I've never owned a 5200 before. Is it worse than the 7800 Prolines?

1017621[/snapback]

 

No its not bad at all. Most of the complaining about the 5200 sticks has to do with the non-centering issue. It doesnt take long to get used to, and is only really bad on a few games.

And they are DEFINETLY not worse than the 7800 prolines. Next to the Colecovision controllers, the 7800's are THE worst, particularly with games that require two fire buttons. Both the 7800 and CV have the fire buttons on opposite sides of the controller making it next to impossible to use while still controlling your movement with the joystick. The 5200 fire buttons are perfectly positioned. The only issue I've ever had at all with the 5200 controllers are the fire buttons wearing out quickly. If you get rebuilt controllers, they should last a long time.

[JB]

What jetset said.

 

You don't KNOW it sucks, you've HEARD it sucks. At least TRY the thing before you badmouth it.

[Lord Helmet]

The only problem I have ever had with the stock 5200 stick is the fire buttons. But then, I have a problem with fire buttons on the side of any controller. I hate the 7800 stick, Intelly pad, and Colecovision stick also. they are all part of the same club IMHO. I just cant get used to them. If I didn't have a Redemption, I would hardly ever play my 5200. I never play any of those other systems with their stock controllers either, well except the Inty. I hardly play it at all, simply because I hate the controller so much.

[Shawn]

What jetset said.

 

You don't KNOW it sucks, you've HEARD it sucks. At least TRY the thing before you badmouth it.

1017631[/snapback]

 

 

I'm not bad mouthing it by any means cause like you said you gotta try it before you know and Ihave yet yo do so. Now hearing its better than the Proline give me confidence I might be able to get into it, Just seems alot of folks give the 5200 controller a bad rap so thats all I knew of it untll this thread.

[JB]

What jetset said.

 

You don't KNOW it sucks, you've HEARD it sucks. At least TRY the thing before you badmouth it.

1017631[/snapback]

 

 

I'm not bad mouthing it by any means cause like you said you gotta try it before you know and Ihave yet yo do so. Now hearing its better than the Proline give me confidence I might be able to get into it, Just seems alot of folks give the 5200 controller a bad rap so thats all I knew of it untll this thread.

1018121[/snapback]

Personally, it's one of my favorite controllers.

 

I think part of the bad rap stems from the fact that it's DIFFRENT. It's a fairly unique device, and it takes some time to get used to. And no, it's not a good PacMan controller.

Reliability issues have plagued it, but they're easily fixed. Especially now.

[Albert]

Personally, it's one of my favorite controllers.

You're definitely in the minority here. Most people I've spoken to about the 5200 controllers do not like them, and not just because of the reliability issues. Ergonomically they are terrible, and that's not even counting the non-centering issue. And many games for the 5200 are simply easier to play with digital controllers, especially since most titles on the 5200 are ports of arcade games or games for other systems. I can't even imagine the nightmare of trying to play a game like Miner 2049'er or Bounty Bob Strikes Back using the stock 5200 controllers.

 

And I agree with Jetset that the 7800 controllers are pretty bad as well, but at least you can use a 2600 controller for many games on that system.

 

..Al

[Paranoid]

Personally, it's one of my favorite controllers.

 

I think part of the bad rap stems from the fact that it's DIFFRENT. It's a fairly unique device, and it takes some time to get used to. And no, it's not a good PacMan controller.

Reliability issues have plagued it, but they're easily fixed. Especially now.

1018130[/snapback]

 

JB and I are kind of the high priests of the Church of the Atari 5200 Joystick around here, it seems. And lately, there has been a lot of discussion over the merits and liabilities of the 5200 controller. JB is probably just getting sick of seeing so many threads about the 5200 and the fact that it seems to be a losing battle.

 

I think an important distinction for myself, anyhow, is that I was an "early adopter" of the 5200. I've said before, for a LONG time the only carts I had were Countermeasure and Breakout... because they were the only ones available for the system locally. I don't think I *ever* disliked the Atari 5200 joystick, but I can remember it wasn't easy adjusting to it... and at first, I really missed the 8 way digital stick of the 2600. When I got bored of Countermeasure, I was kind of forced into playing Super Breakout. This is a game I always *despised* on the 2600 and on consoles. It was too damn difficult. The 5200 version is easier, I think, but also shines with the 5200 joystick. I came to appreciate the game, and the unique control that the 5200 joystick gives you that enables the game to shine. But the important thing was, at the time, there were no alternatives. You just made due with the 5200 stick. Eventually the Wico came on the market, and I think I had one... but I remember not liking it as much. I also had a Colecovision during this period... and *hated* that controller. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome inducing little mushroom knob-stick.... and it was, like the Coleco in general... ugly.

 

Oddly, now, there are a LOT more options for 5200 contol... and you can pick up an entire Atari 8 Bit system for about the same that a 5200 will set you back... so it changes the market a bit. I think this results in a couple of things... People just don't adapt to the 5200 controller. They decide it is garbage... they maybe get some alternate controller... they find that isn't ideal (because a lot of the games are designed around the 5200 controller)... and they decide it is a garbage system, and go back to their A800... A 12 year old in 1982 who ONLY has a 5200 and has no other alternatives is going to learn how to work with the 5200 joystick.

 

Most of the games that are available on the 5200 (if not all) are available on the Atari 8 Bit PCs. Again, I think some of them are going to be uniquely better on the 5200 BECAUSE of the controllers. But they take some getting used to.

 

And I think it is a fine joystick for Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man, and Q*Bert. It *does* suck with Frogger.

 

But seriously... I was playing Ms. Pac Man on my Mame PC last night with a $100 X-Arcade Dual stick control panel... and I was getting false input and making wrong turns and generally getting frustrated. Jakks has whined prodigiously about how the difficulties in controlling Ms. Pac Man on their TV games have more to do with the GAME itself than the controller. MAME guys design 4 way joysticks exclusively for their MAME cabinets just to accomodate these games. Q*Bert is another game where... well, I remember making wrong moves on the arcade game... it is maddeningly frustrating on my Mame PC... the 5200 scheme works well, and I can get pretty far along on that version. My point is... if you're going to use these games as an example of how bad the 5200 controller is... you could argue that there is absolutely NO substitute to owning the arcade original if you REALLY are serious about these particular titles.

 

The 5200 sticks have a bad rap.

[jetset]

The 5200 sticks have a bad rap.

1018158[/snapback]

 

Agreed. I actually prefer the 5200 sticks with many games, including PacMan, Ms PacMan, etc...probably because when I had my 5200 back in the day I just got used to it and it never affected me.

I didnt have Frogger back then, but Id wager if I did I would have adjusted.

Gorf however, sucks. Period, dot, end of story. I couldn't imaging theres a person on the entire planet who enjoys Gorf on the 5200 with ANY controllers.

[joeybastard]

The 5200 sticks are fine if you wire in decent fire buttons. I hate the spongey feel of the originals. I wired in microswitch fire buttons on both sides and not only is it way more responsive but it's more comfortable over long periods of time because I'm not pressing as hard. It may not look too pretty the way I did it but I'm sure if you care, you can make it look nice. The non-centering stick is no issue to me. On one of my sticks I added a spring I took out of a crappy third party N64 stick and now it's self centering. It doesn't help the gameplay any in my opinion. I end up using the non-spring stick 99% of the time.

[Paranoid]

The 5200 sticks have a bad rap.

1018158[/snapback]

 

Agreed. I actually prefer the 5200 sticks with many games, including PacMan, Ms PacMan, etc...probably because when I had my 5200 back in the day I just got used to it and it never affected me.

I didnt have Frogger back then, but Id wager if I did I would have adjusted.

Gorf however, sucks. Period, dot, end of story. I couldn't imaging theres a person on the entire planet who enjoys Gorf on the 5200 with ANY controllers.

1018200[/snapback]

 

I remember that Frogger used to be playable... but that was about it. The graphics of Frogger are among the best that were available... but the control method was just too awkward for the speed and tempo of the game. Now, I can't even play it. Although Q*Bert really has the same control method and I find it no problem at all.

 

Fortunately, I've never even tried to play Gorf... on an emulator *or* on my Multicart... so, I think I'll just take your word for it.

[+remowilliams]

Personally, it's one of my favorite controllers.

You're definitely in the minority here. Most people I've spoken to about the 5200 controllers do not like them, and not just because of the reliability issues. Ergonomically they are terrible, and that's not even counting the non-centering issue. And many games for the 5200 are simply easier to play with digital controllers, especially since most titles on the 5200 are ports of arcade games or games for other systems. I can't even imagine the nightmare of trying to play a game like Miner 2049'er or Bounty Bob Strikes Back using the stock 5200 controllers.

 

And I agree with Jetset that the 7800 controllers are pretty bad as well, but at least you can use a 2600 controller for many games on that system.

 

..Al

1018150[/snapback]

Agreed, the 5200 sticks have a bad rap because they've earned it. I love the 5200, but the sticks are just horrible.

 

And yes I can tell you for a fact that BBSB in particular is ridiculously impossible to play with the stock sticks. You'd have to be a masochist to even attempt it

[jetset]

 

I remember that Frogger used to be playable... but that was about it. The graphics of Frogger are among the best that were available... but the control method was just too awkward for the speed and tempo of the game. Now, I can't even play it. Although Q*Bert really has the same control method and I find it no problem at all.

 

1018317[/snapback]

 

Somehow, I dont count QBert. I've played it on other systems, and it sucks no matter which system, which controller. Only the arcade had the control right.

 

And yes I can tell you for a fact that BBSB in particular is ridiculously impossible to play with the stock sticks.  You'd have to be a masochist to even attempt it   

1018336[/snapback]

 

I never had a problem with it or Miner 2049er. I guess I'm just an uber-masochist.

[JB]

Personally, it's one of my favorite controllers.

You're definitely in the minority here. Most people I've spoken to about the 5200 controllers do not like them, and not just because of the reliability issues.

I acknowledged that. I still think most if it is simply because the 5200 stick is diffrent as opposed to the real failings of the device.

 

It's a lot like the INTV. There's obvious faults in the controller design, but nowhere NEAR enough to justify the passionate hatred they receive.

 

 

Ergonomically they are terrible, and that's not even counting the non-centering issue. 

You might have a point if everyone wasn't pushing the hand-crippling monstrosity of the CX-40 as a shining example of everything a game controller should aspire to.

Next to that, the 5200 stick IS ergonomic.

 

The slightly more modern generation holds up the NES gamepad instead of the CX-40. Which is close to the 5200 ergonomically, but a bit behind in terms of layout(and a left-handed controller on top of it).

 

 

 

And I still say the lack of centering springs is a non-issue that only comes up because people WANT a reason to bash the 5200 stick.

 

And many games for the 5200 are simply easier to play with digital controllers, especially since most titles on the 5200 are ports of arcade games or games for other systems.  I can't even imagine the nightmare of trying to play a game like Miner 2049'er or Bounty Bob Strikes Back using the stock 5200 controllers.

There's a BETTER controller for EVERYTHING.

The question shouldn't be "Is this controller the BEST for this game?" It should be "Is this controller GOOD ENOUGH for this game?"

While I readily admit the answer is no in some cases, for the vast majority of 5200 games, it's yes.

 

 

I've got Miner 2049er in my cart pile. It's not my style of game, so I don't have a lot of play time on it, but I've never felt the controller was to blame for any play issues. This opinion may change if I ever put a lot of time into it, but that's not likely to happen.

 

 

And I agree with Jetset that the 7800 controllers are pretty bad as well, but at least you can use a 2600 controller for many games on that system.

So you can replace a bad controller with a worse one?

The 7800 at least doesn't have you countering the leverage on the stick with the fingertips of your lesser hand.

 

The CX-40 and Vectrex "stick" are the only devices I've ever used that put extensive leverage on the fingers under the controller.

Not coincidentlaly both devices were clearly designed for tabletop use(the rubber feet pretty much prove it), but are too tall in the base to actually USE as tabletop devices.

 

The 5200 stick was Atari's first real attempt at making a handheld joystick, and they did a fairly good job for a first try. Unfortunately, gamers rarely want to see a radically improved controller. They want more of the same, and attack anything that attempts to improve on what they're used to.

The fact that the 5200 DOES have valid faults makes it easier, but that underlying resistance to change amplifies things to an absurd degree.

 

 

 

 

If you're curious...

Were I redesigning the 5200 stick I'd make it a bit narrower, put hard plastic caps on top of the fire buttons, replace the flex circuit with something more reliable, make the stick aperture octagonal, and add LIGHT centering springs(or just a redesigned boot, which would do the same thing without adding components).

Round off the facets too, of course(sharp edges look good, but they aren't very comfortable if you grip the controller too hard).

 

People still wouldn't like it, though. As long as it wasn't a CX-40 with 2 buttons, they'd find something to complain about.

 

 

Were I redesigning the 2600 stick, I'd set fire to it and start tweaking a Gemini stick instead. The design is totally irredeemable, which is why no one else used it.

...

I lie. Apple used the same design on the Apple 2, only with analog.

Edited February 14, 2006 by JB

[Paranoid]

There's a BETTER controller for EVERYTHING.

The question shouldn't be "Is this controller the BEST for this game?" It should be "Is this controller GOOD ENOUGH for this game?"

While I readily admit the answer is no in some cases, for the vast majority of 5200 games, it's yes.

 

 

I've got Miner 2049er in my cart pile. It's not my style of game, so I don't have a lot of play time on it, but I've never felt the controller was to blame for any play issues. This opinion may change if I ever put a lot of time into it, but that's not likely to happen.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you nailed it in this post. Arcade cabinets have custom designed control panels and very few use the "same" configuration as any other game. This is because the 4 way joystick of Pac Man is totally unsuitable to a game like Super HangOn. Could a 4 way joystick be used? Certainly. Would it be the right controller for the game? Of course not.

 

Now, a home console is at a disadvantage right from the get go. They can go the Coleco route (and have a dozen different I/O devices... some of which are good for one or two games, tops)... which has you swapping out controllers constantly... Or you could go the Atari way... and try and do it all with one uber-controller (Jack of All Trades, Master of None?)

 

And mostly, games are going to be designed AROUND the controllers for a particular console... which is one reason why so many ports suck. The original code was designed for something with a completely different interface. Anyhow, a game like Super Mario Land or Sonic the Hedgehog would probably be fairly unenjoyable if not unplayable with an Atari CX40 or 5200 joystick. By the same token, Adventure is not much fun with a D-pad in my experience, and most 5200 games totally suck when you try to play them with the same (via emulation). The *failure* of emulation is in the controls, and is the primary reason, in my mind, that the original consoles have value. The fact that things like the Stella adaptor exist kind of proves my point.

[Shawn]

I totally agree about the CX-40. It's not that great of a controller for all the praise it gets. I don't have one in my collection as I would never use one. I own about 24 controllers (12 sets of 2) and the CX-40 is not in the club. It is brutal on the hands for sure and with so many "other" options, I opt to use something else 100 percent of the time with the 2600. /ducks

Edited February 15, 2006 by Shawn Sr.

[Lord Helmet]

I opt to use something else 100 percent of the time with the 2600. /ducks

1018860[/snapback]

 

I agree also. The cx-40 isn't the greatest controller, although it may be the simplest to use. I own several, but never use them

 

I use my modified RSI stick to play my 2600, 5200 (with 7800 Redemption adapter), 7800, and Colecovision. Best joystick I have ever used on a home console. Also, since I can use it on so many systems, I am quite used to it's feel. Anyone that has not made one should really think about doing so.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72198

[JB]

I opt to use something else 100 percent of the time with the 2600. /ducks

1018860[/snapback]

 

I agree also. The cx-40 isn't the greatest controller, although it may be the simplest to use. I own several, but never use them

 

I use my modified RSI stick to play my 2600, 5200 (with 7800 Redemption adapter), 7800, and Colecovision. Best joystick I have ever used on a home console. Also, since I can use it on so many systems, I am quite used to it's feel. Anyone that has not made one should really think about doing so.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72198

1018934[/snapback]

I modded one for PC use.

...

Too bad I forgot to do anything about the pots on the Wingman Action that donated the brain. It's a bit twitchy on some stuff because the thumbstick is locked in the lower-left corner. I really need to open it back up and add some resistors to center it.

[SteveW]

I've never personally had a problem with the ergonomics of the 5200 stick, or the mushy feeling of the fire buttons, my main problem is that damn control stick. If they had put a digital joystick into the controller instead of an analog, it would have been a lot better. But that stupid analog stick Atari idiotically put into it just doesn't work for the types of games that the 5200 had in it's library. If they designed games specifically to take advantage of an analog controller's strenghts, the 5200's fortune might have been different. But they ported all action games that practically required a digital joystick for precision. Atari gets an A for innovation, but an F in funtionality.

 

I really wish I knew about electronics. I'd like to modify a NES 2-button EPYX CJ-500 joystick to work with the Atari 7800 and (with an adapter box having a keypad mounted on it) the Atari 5200. Shoot, i've got plenty of controllers that I could mod to work with either console. I just don't have the knowledge or skill.

[Paranoid]

See, I disagree. The *BEST* ports of games with digital sticks to the 5200 tweaked the control method to leverage the analog 5200 sticks. Certainly, quick and dirty ports that did not do this were often very frustrating (Pitfall 1 on a 5200 is a nightmare). But when they tweaked the game mechanics of physics to accomodate the 5200 sticks, you often ended up with a game that was somewhat MORE than the original version.

 

The last few days I've been playing around with a couple Genesis systems I picked up. I finally got them working, and picked up a handful of carts (Sonic 1 through 3 and the Sonic & Knuckles cart with the pass-thru slot, and a couple of others). I don't know why... I was mostly interested only in Sonic 1. Anyhow... I had looked at emulators, but couldn't find the ROM... so I just went out and pieced together a classic system. I played it a bunch this afternoon.

 

This evening, searching for something else, I actually came across a working Sonic 1 ROM. So I grabbed it, and played it on my PC in Gen32 Surreal. I have 8 way digital d-pads for my PCs. One, by QuikShot, is a virtual CLONE of the genesis pad. The gameplay is excellent... it is JUST like having a Genesis. Actually, it supports CD games (I got Eye of the Beholder with the Genesis consoles), and that works fine, too.

 

But again... it is all about the controllers. The Genesis gamepad and a PC gamepad are virtually identical. Sonic was designed with this kind of controller in mind. So, Genesis emulation works well, by default, without a lot of kludging, on the PC.

 

The same isn't true of Amiga, ST, Atari 2600, C=64, Atari 8 Bit or Atari 5200 emulation. Control for these emulators is a nightmare... and there are all kinds of hardware solutions to address that. That is because a Genesis/Nintendo/PC style DPad isn't what the games on these platforms were built around. They were built around either an 8-way, 1 fire button, CX40 joystick or a 360 degree, analog, two button 5200 joystick.

 

Everyone has strong opinions on this subject. But it really comes down to where you decide to stop adapting to new I/O solutions. It seems that a lot of people just got the CX40 style stick into their heads as the only solution. And, no wonder... look at all the different platforms it will work on. I remember not liking the Coleco and Atari 5200 controllers when they first came out. I remember not liking the NES Dpad... I remember not liking the Genesis... the PS1, and the XBox... After awhile you adapt, and you learn that for the majority of games on that console, the controller is ideal... On all the consoles, where the controller sucks is when you're trying to play something that was designed for ANOTHER system and ported over, without much thought to control. The arcade and retro anthologies on the Xbox and PS2 seem like a waste to me, in this sense. If they came with an appropriate controller, that would be something different... a unique sales point... but they expect you to play ancient 2600 games with an XBox thumbstick and tiny little gem shapped buttons... you can SEE it is going to be a disaster before laying your $20-50 down. I'd rather buy a Stella USB adaptor and a Flashback 2 just for the sticks, play on a PC, and be done with it.

 

And, for the record... while I defend the 5200 stick... I also really have a fond place in my heart for the CX40 and it's many imitators. I've got 4 slikstiks here... I think they're GREAT for the games that were designed around them on the various different platforms.

 

I'm not a fan of anything from the NES d-pad on.

[MegaManFan]

With a fully wired dsub15 cable and project box, it will only cost $25 or so, plus about 8 hours of time for shopping, soldering, drilling, and debug.  Hopefully it works at the end.

(I think there's a moral about mass-production in there somewhere) 

1017551[/snapback]

 

After reading that, I know for a fact that extra $25 was money well spent on my part.

[Shawn]

Well I got my 5200 sticks and I totally referbed one of them myself so now I am able to say with personal experience with the 5200 controller that the bad rap they get is totally un-just IMO. The 5200 controller is great, I totally enjoy the feel of it in my hand, it's easy to controll once you get into the style of analog control it provides and I can now join the team of stock 5200 controller supporters. There is nothing wrong with the 5200 controller, I can see where it might be prone to break down but I am able to fix such things pretty easy so ya, 5200 controllers are pretty damn cool in my books.

[JB]

Well I got my 5200 sticks and I totally referbed one of them myself so now I am able to say with personal experience with the 5200 controller that the bad rap they get is totally un-just IMO. The 5200 controller is great, I totally enjoy the feel of it in my hand, it's easy to controll once you get into the style of analog control it provides and I can now join the team of stock 5200 controller supporters. There is nothing wrong with the 5200 controller, I can see where it might be prone to break down but I am able to fix such things pretty easy so ya, 5200 controllers are pretty damn cool in my books.

1028372[/snapback]

Welcome to the Church of 5200.