Broken joysticks

[Paranoid]

We'll, I've never been one for pleasant formalities or walking on egg-shells... so you're probably right.

 

But keep in mind if you are calling it like YOU are seeing it, I am guilty of nothing but the same.

[MrRetroGamer]

You know, one more thing... if I were just a random person who was reading this thread, from beginning to end, and I comprehended what *I* have said, and saw how *you* came into the thread and what your responses were...

 

I came into the thread by offering my help to the original poster. So lets agree to let the readers decide for themselves what they comprehend instead of you deciding for them, OK?! I'm comfortable with that. Thanks.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

What is amazing to me... is that I have been fixing 5200 sticks on the side from time to time as well. My usual pricing is $15 plus shipping. I do a pair of sticks for $25 +shipping usually. I don't use the gold dot pads or anything. I just clean the stick cosmetically, apply my foil to the current dots, clean up the flex or replace if needed, and finally I calibrate the pots to ensure they are centered well.

 

I have offered this for years...and yet...only local collectors and those coming to my shows each year have taken me up on this offer. So for those that can manage to get $30 or $40 per stick...I salute them?! Now granted my methods are far cheaper overall to do, and I might not be giving a stick back that looks new. But they work just as well all the same. And I literally have about a dozen 5200 sticks fixed in this manner still working with nothing else needed. Some of them are going on 3 - 4 years now since being worked on.

 

Is my work any better...no...but it does work and I charge what I consider to be a fair price for my time and materials used. I will admit that if I don't have a spare working flex, that I do have to order them and do charge for that. But I only charge for the price of the flex. Nothing extra.

 

I see your point Paranoid in this, but you also have to realize that you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make him drink. If people want and are willing to pay those prices for similar or less work. Then those sellers have a good market. For me...I don't do so well in the 5200 stick game as some people feel that my $15 is too much. Can't win them all you know?

[jaybird3rd]

Jay asks a fair price, offers a great service, and for those who could not otherwise enjoy this stick, he makes it available to them. Probably by giving up time when he could actually be playing on his OWN consoles. It is clear to me that Jay is doing what he does as a service to the Atari retro community.

Thanks for the kind words!

 

So for those that can manage to get $30 or $40 per stick...I salute them?!

I should say something about the prices I charge for my modded Space Invaders joysticks for the 2600/7800. For the sake of discussion, let's take the most expensive option that I offer: $40 shipped for a brand new stick, which falls into the range you're talking about.

 

It typically costs me about $15 each to obtain the sticks, which I order new from Gamestop. That cost varies a bit depending on how many I'm able to buy at once, but $15 is a good average. The 7800 joystick cables cost $6 each, and return shipping (via USPS Priority) usually costs between $7 and $10 depending on where it's going and what packing materials I have on hand. That usually leaves me about $9 to $12 left over, which covers the solder, wire, hot glue, and heatshrink sleeve that I use to build the sticks, plus a few bucks for my time and effort in building them and testing them with a handful of 2600 and 7800 games before I ship. That doesn't strike me as being terribly expensive considering that the joystick and everything inside it is brand new and thoroughly tested. To get the $25 that I charge to mod someone's used stick and ship it back, I just subtracted my $15 cost for obtaining a new one, since all the other costs involved are about the same.

 

I never thought of doing any of this as a "business," exactly; I'm just a 7800 enthusiast who knows from his own experience that a high-quality controller can give that console a whole new meaning. My services are there primarily for players who can't do the modifications themselves, or who don't want to be bothered. Between new sticks and used ones, I've probably shipped about three dozen so far (with no complaints at all from the buyers, I'm proud to say). It doesn't bother me a bit if somebody gets one some other way; I'd love to see every 7800 owner get one, whether they build it themselves or buy it from me, which is why I posted my write-up on how I do the modification. I'd never try to make a killing on these because the design of the modification isn't mine (it came from staring at the 7800 joypad PCB and figuring out how it's wired), nor is the idea of doing it in the first place (remowilliams did it first).

[Paranoid]

Yup. When I was figuring out your prices, it was clear to me from the beginning that you weren't doing this trying to get rich. I already worked through the numbers in my head and thought, "it is a wonder he even bothers". I'm sure you can throw them together pretty fast at this point... but it still takes some time to open the stick, cut out the board, strip the wires, connect everything back up right, put it back together, and test it out.

 

It *is* a shame that by the time you add it all up, you can't put together a stick for less than $40 shipped *and* make good money on the deal. Economics of scale thing going on, I guess. If you could afford to buy 10,000 sticks, cables, and resistors at manufacturer's costs and have them assembled in some Chinese sweat shop, you could probably retail the sticks for $19.95 and make $15 per stick, gross. But then, I'm not sure the world market for Atari 7800 joysticks numbers in then 10,000 range.

 

But, that is part of my problem here, and really the original direction of my thread that MrRetro and SKU seem to have missed completely while deciding that I'm a whining malcontent. This $40 price point becomes the "acceptable" price for a replacement retro joystick. Somewhere, this figure, roughly, just became what the market is willing to bear. Two twenties from an ATM machine. Even Best Electronics is pretty damn close to this point.

 

Now... $40 for a professionally refurbished gold-dot kit stick from Best Electronics or MrRetro or $40 for a modded, brand new Radica SI 7800 stick from you is a good deal. $40 for a used stick that some Joe cracked open, maybe cleaned, maybe stuck a new Rev. 9 flex circuit in... is NOT a good deal (precisely BECAUSE there are people like you, MrRetro, and Best Electronics out there). Which was where that, "It seems like a lot of people here don't really know what a GOOD DEAL is" comment came from.

 

Of course, at this point, restating this is just flogging a dead horse. Those who didn't understand me when I first said it aren't going to change their minds now.

 

I *did* enjoy making the Radica stick and the Ms. Pac Man stick (which I've since decided has an absolutely crappy joystick mechanisim). Someone actually suggested that the Radica stick was inferior to the Ms. Pac Man Stick mechanically. The Ms. Pac Man stick has better buttons, and the stick *feels* better, but it sticks and is inaccurate. The SI stick is much better for actual gameplay. Anyhow, I wouldn't *mind* building these things for people. It is fun and easy. But I figure that the market already has it's supplier in you. If you ever get too much business, are too busy, or otherwise can't do the service, I'd be glad to pitch-in and help.

[Paranoid]

Oh... and I missed Crossbow's post completely.

 

So, Crossbow... are you SELLING "home refurbed" 5200 sticks for $15? Or do you have customers ship you their sticks and refurbish them for $15?

 

Either way... great deal... even (or especially) for a foil-dot repair (which arguably achieves more or less the same goal as the gold-dot repair). Add a flex circuit for what... $6.

 

See... these prices seem reasonable to me either way. Now, granted... I'm assuming you repair a customer provided stick. If you were including your stick that would probably tack on $10-15 to your price which would take you right back up around that $40/stick mark.

 

And... once more... we're talking about a guy just replacing the flex circuits and getting $40 per stick and selling them all out in a week on eBay.

 

With a little effort, those buyers could have found MrRetro, or Best Electronics, or you...

Edited April 5, 2006 by Paranoid

[sku_u]

Oh... and I missed Crossbow's post completely.

 

So, Crossbow... are you SELLING "home refurbed" 5200 sticks for $15? Or do you have customers ship you their sticks and refurbish them for $15?

 

Either way... great deal... even (or especially) for a foil-dot repair (which arguably achieves more or less the same goal as the gold-dot repair). Add a flex circuit for what... $6.

 

See... these prices seem reasonable to me either way. Now, granted... I'm assuming you repair a customer provided stick. If you were including your stick that would probably tack on $10-15 to your price which would take you right back up around that $40/stick mark.

 

And... once more... we're talking about a guy just replacing the flex circuits and getting $40 per stick and selling them all out in a week on eBay.

 

With a little effort, those buyers could have found MrRetro, or Best Electronics, or you...

 

He cleans it and adds some foil to what's already there. In other words, he's taking some tin foil, balling it up and gluing it in there. There is no such thing as a foil dot pad. If not, then he's using the wrong terminology as the "dots" are carbon not foil. That's why everyone inlcuding him will emphasize the fact that using an eraser is a very bad idea.

[Paranoid]

Right... he adds some foil... which could be like what JB does... or what a number of other people do (buy a foil-transfer kit from an automotive store like Kragen). I'm familiar with the process. It is a service, and a physical product enhancement, that improves the connectivity between the keypad button and the flex pad. You're the first guy I've heard suggest that you should ball up some tin foil and put it under the carbon dots. Most people, even if they use regular tin foil, are cutting out dot sized tabs (dots) and gluiing them or otherwise affixing them to the carbon dots on the existing keypad.

 

Erasers are only a bad idea on the carbon trace flex circuit (as they'll erase the circuit leads). On the metal trace pads, using an eraser works fine. You just have to know which revisions are carbon trace, or, be able to tell by looking. Erasers work quite well for cleaning the metal trace flex pads. Interestingly enough, I've *yet* to come across a carbon trace flex pad. All of mine have been metal trace. I think some people make the blanket statement that using an eraser is bad simply because they don't trust people to be able to tell the difference between a metal lead and a carbon lead flex pad... which is a reasonable enough assumption.

 

I imagine if I ever encountered a carbon lead flex pad, my first response would be to contact MrRetro for a replacement flex pad. A flex pad that can be erased with a #2 pencil sounds far too fragile to me.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Paranoid

[sku_u]

You're the first guy I've heard suggest that you should ball up some tin foil and put it under the carbon dots. Most people, even if they use regular tin foil, are cutting out dot sized tabs (dots) and gluiing them or otherwise affixing them to the carbon dots on the existing keypad.

 

If you look through the old threads in this forum, you'll see that a lot of people do exactly what I suggested especially with the fire buttons. Some will also add springs like the kind you will find in a retractable pen. I'm not familiar with what crossbow offers as I've never inquired with him, but if all he's doing is cleaning contacts and cosmetic repairs, I can do that myself.

[Paranoid]

Sure enough. I'm not sure what Crossbow is doing. I'm still unclear if he is selling whole joysticks for $15, or if he is having customers ship sticks which he is cleaning. To me it sounded like he is doing a foil-"dot" "mod" to the sticks, anyhow. If he is SELLING complete sticks that have been cleaned and tested and have a foil dot mod, that is a helluva deal. If he is offering it as a service, (send your stick, I'll do a foil-dot mod and clean it) it is still one of the cheapest ways around to get a working stick short of piecing parts together yourself.

 

This is the rub for a lot of members. I found out I could do the Radica 7800 mod myself, but a lot of people aren't comfortable with even twisting wires together and using electric tape to wrap them. I've seen several people here complain about how difficult it is to disassemble, clean and re-assemble 5200 sticks. And some of this is subjective. One user may prefer to pay $40 for a refurbed stick sold as "like new" with a warranty while another might be happy to pay $15 to get their old sticks serviced and in working condition, depending on budget.

 

What I don't get is the people who will pay $40 for a USED stick from a private party with no warranty other than it being guaranteed to work/no DOA.

[sku_u]

This is the rub for a lot of members. I found out I could do the Radica 7800 mod myself, but a lot of people aren't comfortable with even twisting wires together and using electric tape to wrap them. I've seen several people here complain about how difficult it is to disassemble, clean and re-assemble 5200 sticks. And some of this is subjective. One user may prefer to pay $40 for a refurbed stick sold as "like new" with a warranty while another might be happy to pay $15 to get their old sticks serviced and in working condition, depending on budget.

 

What I don't get is the people who will pay $40 for a USED stick from a private party with no warranty other than it being guaranteed to work/no DOA.

 

People will do as they do. There are people out there who are terrified of working with EM machines even though they are relatively simple to figure out and feel perfectly comfortable modifying an Xbox.

 

I like tinkering with these kinds of toys, myself:

[JB]

Interestingly enough, I've *yet* to come across a carbon trace flex pad. All of mine have been metal trace.

I've got 2. They both came with a 5200 I got from my aunt.

Vintage is easy to establish, as she was getting replacements as they failed until they quit being available, so the carbon circuits were the last ones out.

 

I think some people make the blanket statement that using an eraser is bad simply because they don't trust people to be able to tell the difference between a metal lead and a carbon lead flex pad... which is a reasonable enough assumption.

Easy way to say it is "if the traces are black, don't use an eraser."

 

I'm not really sure where the no erasers rule came from, unless someone just misapplied the carbon-trace exemption to ALL controllers and it got spread around.

 

I imagine if I ever encountered a carbon lead flex pad, my first response would be to contact MrRetro for a replacement flex pad. A flex pad that can be erased with a #2 pencil sounds far too fragile to me.

In my experience(which admittedly consists of one attempt to clean one stick's right-side fire buttons), the traces don't disappear as much as they rip off the plastic sheet. I had a large chunk of trace pull up when I tried to eraser-clean it.

 

Which isn't actually a whole lot better, really.

[eegt97]

The simple pencil eraser did wonders for me, never heard of the no eraser rule...

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Parnoid, Sku, the rest of you. You all know exactly what I do when I foil dot mod the 5200. This guide right here explains it...

 

http://members.cox.net/crossbow777/guides/..._gd/5200_rep_gd

 

Who do you think wrote this...

 

Anyway, what I usually do is have people send me their broken sticks and I clean and foil dot mod them. I don't usually repair the boots or replace them, and as long as the casing is in good shape, I usually just use what I am sent. What I do is clean the grime and remaining carbon off the dots of the pads and then apply the foil. I do not use glue as I have never had good luck with super glue actually staying on the pads. But I haven't tried rubber cement. Either way, I just get the foil tape found at the autoparts store and cut it into tiny squares. A hole punch would also work well if it is sharp enough.

 

I apply the foil to all the dots on the controller. Both side fire buttons, top row and keypad. I clean the flex with a shot of tuner cleaner, eraser, than alcohol wipe to get rid of any left over residue. If the flex is carbon then I just clean as well as I can with alcohol. I do meter out the flex to ensure good conductivity in the traces througout. When I find one that is bad, I replace the flex and charge extra for that part only.

 

I then test, calibrate the pots if needed and send back. Only charges to the person sending them are the shipping to me. Cost for the refurb and shipping back. Which I always can do a pair of 5200 sticks for the flat 3.85 priority pricing.

 

At my show I bring along the materials to do this on the fly to my own sticks (So far not needed), but also for AA, and any other vendors. I also had a woman come up to me at my show last year with some 5200 sticks that hadn't worked in years. In about 30min both were good to go and she tested them herself on my 5200 and with my blaster cart. I only asked $10 per stick at the show since she brought them to me and I was pleased she had heard I did this. But she insisted on paying me the $30 for the pair as she was that pleased with the results. I have also repaird about a half dozen or so to Vintage Stock here in Tulsa so they could sell complete 5200 sets with working controllers. I don't charge them directly but we basically do trades. I get a fairly rare GG cart or two I'm looking for and they get some good working 5200 sticks.

 

Do I undercharge...maybe. But then I enjoy this hobby and I enjoy making someone happy if it brings them that to have the 5200 sticks fixed. $15 per stick plus shipping is my price for my time and the materials are really not much cost at all. I do not sell completed already to go sticks as I haven't really that many extra's on hand. But if I did, I would probably charge about $20 to $30 a piece. Only because I can easily spend $10 or more for a pair of confirmed dead ones in the first place.

 

I think that explains what I do pretty well.

Edited April 5, 2006 by -^Cro§Bow^-

[eegt97]

For those that are scared of opening up the controllers themselves, I think what you offer is a great deal compared to what is out there. And I thank you for your guide...

 

-Brian

[Paranoid]

Crossbow, your page is my *bible* on 5200 stick repair. I never realized it was your page, but I definetly owe you a tip of the hat and a nod of appreciation. Best walkthrough out there on 5200 stick repair, and I owe all of my working sticks to your instructions. Well, except for the Best Electronics Gold Dot stick. But I think some of my repairs work better than it does, really.

 

And... what you described, is exactly what I thought you did. I just have been trying to keep my "cocky newbie know-it-all attitude" in check since I was chastised. I guess I might not be doing such a good job at that, though.

 

 

Anyhow, excellent page, and seriously, thanks for making it available.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Paranoid

[sku_u]

Parnoid, Sku, the rest of you. You all know exactly what I do when I foil dot mod the 5200. This guide right here explains it...

 

I honestly had no idea. I do something similar except I use tin foil folded over once and epoxy and I'd never use an eraser on contacts. Bad idea. That's up there with using a dremel on game contacts for me. Sure, it shines them up nice, but it also erases a small layer of the contact.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Sku, I only use the eraser on the metal trace flex circuits. I never use the eraser on the carbon traced Rev 9 flex. BTW for those curious most of the carbon traces flexes are rev 9 circuits and are usually on white opaque flex vs the transparent light green and sometimes dark green of the rev 6, 7 and 8 circuits.

 

While I'm at that...I found out that the rev numbers have nothing to do with the material of the flex. They are the rev for the circuit traces themselves on the flex. If you compare all of them together, there are subtle differences.

 

Now back to the eraser on the metal flex. I will state that I am VERY careful when doing the flex on the fire buttons. As was noted previously, these can and usually do tend to bend up right off the flex itself. You can't do a whole lot without risk of damage. But I just take it slow and easy and do those in sections instead of hitting the entire area down as I do with the numpad. I got the idea of using an eraser when I heard someone in mone of my classes mention the use of them on old ISA boards and memory that had corroded due to unlike metals from the slots and contact edges of the boards. As a result, the use of eraser's (I prefer the Pink Pearl myself) has become standard practice in my company for all electronic boards and PC repair and PMs. And so far it has worked very well for us. We must be doing something right, we handle all the computer systems and printers for American Airlines, and United Airlines as well as travel agencies around North America. I can't help but think that 10s of thousands of equipment can't all be wrong?

[Paranoid]

In defense of using an eraser to clean contacts... I've been doing this since at least 1987 with ISA cards and any other kind of edge connector, for the very reasons that Crossbow suggests above. I learned the technique from an oldschool engineer who sold me my first Z-80 CP/M machine which I ran a Citadel BBS off of. I'm sure he was using the technique on big-iron IBM mainframes a decade before I was even born. This is absolutely a "trick of the trade" that people in IT who have been around the block all seem to know about. If the guy busts out a card, busts out an eraser, and starts rubbing it on the edge connector, you know you're dealing with a guy with actual experience, and not just text-book theory.

 

I can see your concern with how delicate the traces on the flex circuits are, and Crossbow's cautions are good advice. I've actually been pretty vigorous when cleaning flex circuits, because this is how to do it with a nice, big, gold-lead edge connector. So far I've been lucky, especially with fire buttons.

 

Using a dremel on game contacts *is* a bad idea... you should use a #2 pencil eraser *there*, too, if you can get to them. When I was having trouble with some NES carts, if they didn't have those funky screws in them, I was just a second away from pulling the carts open and erasing those edge connectors real good.

[Zonie]

OK, so She's out running errands, so I decide to crack open my 5200 controllers. With Crossbow's guide at hand, I dig in.

 

First controller. I pop the start/pause/reset bezel off and gee, the flex ckt is only under the left two buttons. Flip her over, remove the screws, pop the cover. back right side up, pull apart and lo and behold the rest of the flex circuit is fan folded behind the left fire buttons. It's a rev 7, metal lines, and totally ruined.

 

Open up the other one. Flex ok. Its a rev 8, black lines. Cleaned it up. The edge connector in this one is no good, as it is flared out sort of in the middle. did the foil tape deal. I was able to make one working controller out of two. wiggling the flex ckt causes the console video to scramble.

 

Played some defender, galaxian, qix, etc. Then during pac man, the stick popped and would no longer go down. Both stiks had this problem initially. Fixing this only lasted a few more games. What a bummer. I really like these controllers, but they just seem to be too much trouble.

 

I also cleaned the console. I wet sanded the metal strip as it was all jacked up. I then polished it with ceran top cleaner then stainless steel polish I use in my kitchen. Looks good as new.

 

After some cart port tweaking, the carts seat properly now and boot up fine. Can even wiggle them around without problems.

 

I think I will either park this thing in the closet, sell it, or make a custom controller for it. My two wico controllers are not perfect either. one of them loses it's self centering and then I have to pop the lock, center it, then re-lock it. Does anyone have the schematic for the flex ckt? It'd save me a lot of time.

 

If I use an industrial quality analog joystick maybe from an inspection scope or maybe from Happs if they have one, a video touch pad or telephone keypad, and arcade buttons, I may be happier. Maybe I'll just trade the damn thing for some more carts for my atari 400. Hail to the CX-40.

 

Ughh....What a bummer.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Zonie

[JB]

RCA actually listed thje pencil eraser as the official recommended cleaning mechanism for Studio 2 carts.

...

You know, for all 5 people that bought a Studio 2.

[Paranoid]

Zonie...

 

You've got yourself quite a 5200 there. Sounds like you should start calling her "Christine".

 

I've got 3 5200 systems... even the one with a bad joyport #1 doesn't behave as badly as you're describing, and one of the others, I had to crazy glue the plastic on the front and over the joystick storage area back together.

 

I think you should try taking Crossbow or RetroGamer up on their services, or contact Best Buy, and try a decent stick and see if this improves your experience. No wonder you're considering selling the thing.

[JB]

First controller. I pop the start/pause/reset bezel off and gee, the flex ckt is only under the left two buttons. Flip her over, remove the screws, pop the cover. back right side up, pull apart and lo and behold the rest of the flex circuit is fan folded behind the left fire buttons. It's a rev 7, metal lines, and totally ruined.

Interesting. My REv7 was exactly the same way.

 

If I use an industrial quality analog joystick maybe from an inspection scope or maybe from Happs if they have one, a video touch pad or telephone keypad, and arcade buttons, I may be happier.

Happs sells analog sticks. But A. they're absurdly expensive, and B. you have to match the resistance range of a 5200 stick, which they don't.

[Zonie]

First controller. I pop the start/pause/reset bezel off and gee, the flex ckt is only under the left two buttons. Flip her over, remove the screws, pop the cover. back right side up, pull apart and lo and behold the rest of the flex circuit is fan folded behind the left fire buttons. It's a rev 7, metal lines, and totally ruined.

Interesting. My REv7 was exactly the same way.

 

If I use an industrial quality analog joystick maybe from an inspection scope or maybe from Happs if they have one, a video touch pad or telephone keypad, and arcade buttons, I may be happier.

Happs sells analog sticks. But A. they're absurdly expensive, and B. you have to match the resistance range of a 5200 stick, which they don't.

Swapping out the pots to match wouldn't be much of a problem. There are also many PC joysticks that may be good donor parts. They are also analog. I also have a commander deluxe that is for the 2600, and has a nifty little plate where a keypad would fit, two fire buttons, and an analog stick. Just some rewiring and possible pot change would fit the bill there. It is one of the best controllers ever made..

 

 

 

Overall, the console behaves properly, now, and looks really good. If I stick with it and the stock controllers, I just need to get some new flex circuits, and maybe another controller. The reason the stick pops out is that the pins on the pots seem a bit short. The fanfolded flex ckt kind of indicates to me that this has been "fixed" before.

 

I really like star raiders with the analog stick. I think I am leaning towards a custom controller.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Zonie

[Paranoid]

Well... good luck either way. I'd certainly recommend talking to Crossbow, MrRetro or Best Electronics about getting a 5200 stick in nice condition first. If your only experience has been with used, badly maintained 5200 sticks, it is hard to know if you really like them or not.

 

Until you know, it seems like a lot of work to go to to convert another stick. But if you do... document and post!