5200 controllers

[Rik]

Hello,being a 2600 user,I have a chance to grab a 5200 still in the origianal box, from the local flea market,I asked the guy to hold it for me a couple of days.The thing is,you see,I heard the controllers for the 5200 are cheaply made,easy to break,and just plain crap,if so,are there alternative controllers out there,and are they hard to get?,I'm not going to buy a console with crummy controllers,especially if there weren't that many made for it,like the wide variety made for the 2600.I forgot to check what the control ports are like for the 5200,I've never owned one.Thanx!

[Dusk2600]

you can buy a controller adapter from the AA store. 5200 controlers blow, they break easy, and chances are there probibally already broken as we speak

[JagFan422]

i own many,many,many consoles, over 25, next to the Saturn 3d controller, the 5200 controller is one of my favorites.

[Shawn]

5200 controllers are just fine. A good condition 5200 controller will suit you fine, The crappy reviews of 5200 controllers are bullshit, but to each their own.

[Paranoid]

And Shawn is a very recent convert to the Temple of the Atari 5200 Joystick.

 

If it came with sticks, the odds are they're not working. If they're not actually *broken*, the odds are you can fix them with a good cleaning.

 

see: http://members.cox.net/crossbow777/guides/..._gd/5200_rep_gd

 

For a very detailed walkthrough. As far as repairs go, you've got several possible paths.

 

You can just clean all the buttons and the flex circuit...

 

You can clean and upgrade the buttons with a foil kit.

 

You can replace some or all of the major components (buttons, keypad, and flex circuit)...

 

You can purchase a refurbished joystick from Best Electronics or 4-Jays or other Atari dealers (4-Jays has been rude to me the two or three times I've dealt with them, Best Electronics will do everything but hold your hand... I'd go with Best Electronics, if I were you).

 

The LEAST expensive way is almost always going to be to just get the Refurbished unit from Best Electronics. It is like buying a whole gold dot kit and getting the joystick thrown in for free, with a warranty.

 

If you MUST get a different stick, the Redemption adapter sold here at the Atari Age store is what you want... and isn't a bad idea to have even if you do own the original 5200 sticks. There are some games that the Redemption adapter is going to improve.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Paranoid

[JB]

All three charges, in order...

 

Cheaply made... pretty much out of the question, as the devices make use of then-cutting-edge technology such as flex circuits and silicon rubber buttons.

 

Easy to break... I've never done it.

You probably mean prone to failure, which is diffrent than easy to break. And they are that, sadly. It prevents me from recommending the system to casual gamers.

They're easily fixed, but it's a nuisance nonetheless.

 

Just plain crap... that one's quite subjective.

I like them, and maintain they're a heck of a lot better than most of the alternatives. Others... disagree

[Artlover]

5200 controllers are just fine. A good condition 5200 controller will suit you fine, The crappy reviews of 5200 controllers are bullshit, but to each their own.

As you said, a good condition controller will suit one fine, and thats true. But trying to find a good condition one is rather hard now a days. If it's not a newly reburbished unit or a NIB one, you can almost rest assured that something isn't going to work. Of course, with a little TLC, just about any 5200 controller can be made like new, even improved.

 

But the fact that they require as much TLC and as they do is annoying. I mean, even just letting a working stick sit for a few years unused will render atleast some of the buttons non operational until taken apart and cleaned/repaired. Yet I can leave a 2600 stick for just as long, and it will still work when I go back to it, so long as it was working when I left it.

 

I like the 5200 sticks as much as anybody, I like mine and can't think of playing my 5200 with anything else, but lets be honest about it, the controllers have valid issues.

 

I'll tell you one thing tho, my experiencing in soldering on mylar film comes from having to constantly fix my 5200 controllers, where the conductive pathways keep corroding away. I mostly blame that on climate, as my 5200 and it's controllers spent the first 15 years of it's life in S.Florida in a non air conditioned house and where the problem started.

[Dusk2600]

i have never owned a working 1 up to date. i like the style and so on of the 5200 controllers. dont kill me LOL but still in my experiences ive never had a working one

[spacecadet]

I like them by feel but not by function...

 

Both of mine work like new and always have, but then I don't use my 5200 that much. I do remember playing at a friends' house in 1984 and his rubber boots were just utterly shot to hell. I know that's a common complaint and I have seen it myself. So, cheaply made? Yeah, I'd say so. If after one year a controller is physically falling apart, that is cheaply made.

 

If you want to argue semantics you could say it was instead poorly designed, but there's no practical difference between a controller that's poorly designed and one that doesn't use materials strong or flexible enough for the design it had. Whatever rubber is being used in those boots is too brittle.

 

That's a relatively minor complaint, though, if the controllers otherwise work.

 

I am one of those people that hates the non-centering-ness. If they centered, and they were either better engineered or better made (or both), they would be among my favorite controllers. They have a nice heft and they just feel good in the hand.

[Paranoid]

I've seen more CX4x style joysticks with broken rubber boots than Atari 5200 sticks, in my experience. I hear a lot about the rubber boots ripping apart, but I've never experienced it. Of the six sticks I currently own, only one has a "damaged" rubber boot, and it is missing completely, and that stick is a complete mess, so it is clear that it was abused or VERY well used, to me.

 

The only valid point I've seen is that the flex circuits and carbon dots will "fail" in storage, without even being used. It is easy enough to fix this problem, but it is a valid issue, none-the-less.

 

MOST of the problems with the 5200 joysticks come from abuse, in my opinion. In that sense, they might not have been designed well enough for their target audience of 8-24 year old males. But when they are actually *damaged*, it is usually from people pressing down on the buttons EXTREMELY hard, or with a thumbnail, as the carbon dots or flex circuit got dirty and non-responsive. The MOST common part of the Flex circuit to be damaged this way is the Start, Pause and Reset button across the top, with the side fire buttons on the left coming in a close second. Again, even when this is encountered, it is usually a pretty easy fix, requiring you to replace the flex circuit and most often the offending buttons. The pots, on the other hand, are almost always bullet proof, with no jitter or other defects like you find with almost any surviving pair of Atari 2600 paddles. How often do you pick up a pair of 2600 paddles and they *rattle*? How often do you experience this with a 5200 stick? There is a little piece of plastic that breaks off in the 2600 paddles. Everything inside the 5200 stick is pretty solid. The CX style joysticks with their little contact domes underneath a film of plastic aren't perfect, either, in reliability, but those are a far less complex controller, and people have learned to live with and love the quirks there. The 5200 controller is hands down a better controller than the stock 2600 controllers, though. It is simply higher maintainence, which gets confused with "unreliable" and "cheap".

 

A properly maintained BMW is a highly reliable vehicle. You'll hear a lot of people complain about Bimmer reliability because they tried to maintain it as if it were a Taurus.

 

A properly maintained 5200 stick is a highly reliable controller. You'll hear a lot of people complain about 5200 stick reliability because they tried to maintain it as if it were a 2600 stick.

 

(and that may be the closest thing to a perfect analogy you'll ever see...)

Edited March 14, 2006 by Paranoid

[JB]

Yet I can leave a 2600 stick for just as long, and it will still work when I go back to it, so long as it was working when I left it.

Like you'd want to use it...

 

I like the 5200 sticks as much as anybody, I like mine and can't think of playing my 5200 with anything else, but lets be honest about it, the controllers have valid issues.

Sad but true.

[PacManPlus]

I actually used to remove the rubber boot myself back in the day; I hated them. The controller moved much more freely without them. Although I had a Masterplay Interface as well soon after getting the 5200, so I ended up using that much more.

[Artlover]

The only valid point I've seen is that the flex circuits and carbon dots will "fail" in storage, without even being used. It is easy enough to fix this problem, but it is a valid issue, none-the-less.

It's not just a valid issue, it's the single most signifigant issue it has as that directly effects your ability to play games. Also, keep in mind that saying it's easy enough to fix is relative. Some people don't know which end of a screw-driver to hold, and trying to take one apart and worse, putting it back together is not something everyone inhenertly can do easily, if at all. Hell, I'm good at doing stuff like that and even I find it a royal pain in the ass at times. Mostly I find getting the S/P/R buttons back into place without the mylar shifting to be the biggest annoyance.

 

The 5200 controller is hands down a better controller than the stock 2600 controllers, though. It is simply higher maintainence, which gets confused with "unreliable" and "cheap".

Yes, true. But that is infact the 'problem'. Considering the period and the target audience, it was rather stupid to produce something that requires higher maintenance. Consider that all the other controllers of the period didn't, and that includes colecovision and intellivision. I've bought used two decades old Coleco's and Inteli's, and while the controllers may have been cruddy, they worked. Even consider the 5200 track ball which could hold up over time very well without constant care too. Of course the 5200 trackball smartly used circuit boards instead of the flexi mylar film circuits. The difference propper design and fore-thought makes.

 

Also, consider modern controllers. Xbox and PS2 controllers are more complicated and precision then a 5200 stick, yet they do not suffer from the same long term issues. You can leave them idle in storage and they will still work when you go back to them. Nor do they require any special maintenance considerations, just go ahead and treat them like a 2600 stick and you'll be fine.

 

Sure, ALL controllers will need some level of maintenance at some point, but pretty much only the 5200 controller required constant, taking it apart to the guts on a regular basis, level of care. That's just insane and really not acceptable for a general consumer product. Imagine if you had to take your TV apart and rebuild it every 6 months to keep it working.

 

A properly maintained BMW is a highly reliable vehicle. You'll hear a lot of people complain about Bimmer reliability because they tried to maintain it as if it were a Taurus.

I shouldn't HAVE to maintain a BMW more then a Taurus. That is inherently a design problem issue where they couldn't figure out how to make something reliable in the long term. Guys the oil gets dirty too fast - Well, just tell the owners they need to change it every 500 miles - Ok, will do.

 

Better, higher quality things can be made with without any automatic requirement of higher maint. Again, the 5200 trackball as example. Functionaly identical to the hand controller (ball vs. stick aside) without any of the problems. Had Atari used circuit boards in the hand controllers instead of mylar, that would have eliminated probably 90% of all the complaints and all maintenance requirements. Had they done that, you could have treated a 5200 stick just like a 2600 one.

 

For years, I've been meaning to etch some boards and retrofit one of my controllers. Just never get around to it. Then again, I haven't played it for a few years so I have little incentive at the momment. I'll probably finally do it when I get nostaligic enough to drag it out and play it and find that once again, none of my controllers work.

[Paranoid]

Ok... first the BMW versus Taurus thing. The Taurus has a much wider tolerance for abuse engineered into it. It is a workhorse vehicle designed with off the shelf parts to be a general purpose automobile. Hell, we can even use a Mustang in my analogy. You move up like this, into a more complex item, and you start dealing with more precise tolerances, and you increase the maintainence required if you want the same kind of reliability. Move a level up, to a BMW M series or a Mustang Cobra SVT... and you end up with even TIGHTER tolerances, and MORE need for reliability. We can take it all the way to Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini. Constant maintainence, and far less reliability. But you're getting performance and features (and odd quirks) that a Taurus just can't *match*. The analogy really does fit. Atari designed an *exotic* with the 5200. If you put the time into it, it will reward you. But, it isn't your daily driver.

 

Using your XBox joystick example, I've got a fat-hand controller that my daughter spit up on when she was a baby. The throttle control on the right sticks. You could put an Atari 2600 joystick in stomach acid for a month and it would probably still work fine when you pulled it out and let it dry out.

 

Your point about bad design for a mass-consumer product has merit. It probably was stupid, and has left the Atari 5200 the target of 3 decades of (undeserved) scorn.

 

I'm not particularily handy. I don't consider myself a DIY kind of guy. I can. I've built my own shelves and workbench in my garage, I replaced the roof on an RV and the bathroom floor on a trailer. I built my own MAME cabinet and refurbished an arcade cabinet as a MAME cabinet. But I don't work on my own cars, I'm not good at soldering, I even struggle with bicycle repairs. I saw someone relate 5200 stick repair to an oil change. I think it is far easier. I've done it a number of times. There are some tough parts that require patience and a steady hand. But, it isn't rocket science. It is odd. You say you're good at this kind of thing, and you find it to be a PITA... I'm saying I'm NOT really good at this kind of thing, but I find it relatively easy to do. I suppose it *is* relative, but, then again... it is just that... relative. If you don't *mind* the effort, you will find rewards in the time you spend doing it.

 

And finally, for a fairly small investment, there are a number of modern improvements available that will alleviate or resolve the maintainence issues. Upgrading to the latest flex circuits and foil or gold buttons goes a long way and is an affordable solution. For less than the price of a Redemption adapter you can have a fully refurbished 5200 gold-stick button with the latest flex circuit. By all accounts, these are pretty bullet proof... and then you can enjoy the majority of 5200 titles as they were designed to be enjoyed. Using one of the digital alternatives may improve some games, but the *best* games on the 5200 work with the strengths of the 5200 stock sticks, as opposed to fighting with their weaknesses.

[Artlover]

It is odd. You say you're good at this kind of thing, and you find it to be a PITA... I'm saying I'm NOT really good at this kind of thing, but I find it relatively easy to do. I suppose it *is* relative, but, then again... it is just that... relative. If you don't *mind* the effort, you will find rewards in the time you spend doing it.

It's not that I don't find it easy, but it's tedious, especialy when you have to do it all the time. I don't play mine very often, just every now and then, and that equals having to rebuild the sticks every time I want to play, which is partly why I don't play as much.

 

I know there are upgraded replacement parts, like the gold dot buttons and and stuff, but first of all I hate buying stuff, especialy when I shouldn't have to. It's a princible issue; it's not my fault Atari got cheap with some of the design considerations, so why should I have to pay to correct that after already paying to buy their product to begin with? Also, is there any other place then Best Electronics to get these parts? Not that I have anything against B.E., it's cool there is still a company around making/selling replacement parts for these classic system. But I dont like their prices. I know, they have to pay for design and tooling and fabbing and all that. From a business perspective, the prices are fair. But I personaly don't like those prices and won't pay them. I mean, I can buy a working DC VMU for less then the cost of just a single set of replacement carbon dot fire buttons. Remember, I'm cheap.

[JB]

I know there are upgraded replacement parts, like the gold dot buttons and and stuff, but first of all I hate buying stuff, especialy when I shouldn't have to.

Don't own aluminum foil?

 

It's a princible issue; it's not my fault Atari got cheap with some of the design considerations, so why should I have to pay to correct that after already paying to buy their product to begin with?

I doubt it was cheapness as much as using unproven technology.

At the time, flex circuits were a new idea. They weren't ready for a high-wear environment. I suspect they also cost a lot due to that newness.

 

Also, is there any other place then Best Electronics to get these parts? Not that I have anything against B.E., it's cool there is still a company around making/selling replacement parts for these classic system. But I dont like their prices. I know, they have to pay for design and tooling and fabbing and all that. From a business perspective, the prices are fair. But I personaly don't like those prices and won't pay them. I mean, I can buy a working DC VMU for less then the cost of just a single set of replacement carbon dot fire buttons. Remember, I'm cheap.

I'm cheap too. Hence why I just grabbed a bottle of superglue and tore off a few tiny dots of aluminum foil.

[Paranoid]

I'm cheap too, (Hell, I started a major flame war because I "lowballed" some guy here for his Atari 7800 setup) and it was hard for me to part with more than I paid for two consoles for a single stick... but, it was worth it.

 

At the same time, maybe it is your climate, or the rev of the flex circuit, but I don't encounter the kind of issues you're encountering. It must be a LOOOOONG stretch between sessions for you if you have to repair the stick every time you want to use your 5200.

 

There ARE alternatives, but pretty much the gold dot sets are expensive. They are, after all, gold. Heh. But you can get the newer flex circuits fairly inexpensively, and aluminum foil is just one if the budget ways to get around the carbon buttons. Those two solutions alone, done once, should buy you a MUCH more reliable joystick. Check eBay for the flex circuits. I think someone here sells them too.

 

And I agree with JB. The problem was emerging, unproven technology. The 5200 stick was pioneering something that is pretty common now. Almost all of our cel phones and cordless phones use flex circuits and carbon buttons now, and the reliability of such technology has become much better. I don't think it was necessarily that they were trying to save on costs, I think they were going with a new, cutting edge technology and all the bugs weren't worked out yet.

 

There are lots of examples of bad design and cut corners making consumer electronics unreliable that are a lot worse than the Atari 5200 joysticks. The Compaq iPaq and Apple iPod non-user replacable battery issues... big screen televisions that burn out a gun in less than a year... Downloads that erase the flash-ram stored BIOS routines on the PSP... failures that irreparibly make an EXPENSIVE unit non-functional. The 5200 joysticks are a minor issue that is fairly easy for the average person to address.

[Artlover]

Don't own aluminum foil?

I'm cheap too. Hence why I just grabbed a bottle of superglue and tore off a few tiny dots of aluminum foil.

I've fixed many a TV remote and a few C-64 keyboards like that! Tho I got tired of the superglue cracking and the dots falling off over time so I eventualy upgraded to using self-stick aluminum duct tape (because I happened to have some laying around), unfortunatly those dots fall off sometimes too. I should consider going back to regular aluminum foil and using rubber or contact cement.

 

I doubt it was cheapness as much as using unproven technology.

At the time, flex circuits were a new idea. They weren't ready for a high-wear environment.

And I agree with JB. The problem was emerging, unproven technology. I think they were going with a new, cutting edge technology and all the bugs weren't worked out yet.

Fair enough. I sometimes conceptualy forget that we're talking over 2 decades ago.

 

I'm cheap too.

I'm cheap too,

{Shakes everyone's hands.} Hi friends!.

 

At the same time, maybe it is your climate, or the rev of the flex circuit, but I don't encounter the kind of issues you're encountering. It must be a LOOOOONG stretch between sessions for you if you have to repair the stick every time you want to use your 5200.

Well, again, it spent the first 15 years of it's life in S.Florida in an unconditioned house. My issues are a mix of two things. Both Flexi circuit issues. The typical issue of various buttons not responding when pressed. Also corroding flexi circuit traces that need to be jumpered, this I contribute to climate. And yeah, I can go a year or two between sessions. (Hey, only said I liked the system, never said I was dedicated to it! )

[Dusk2600]

bottom line is ur best bet is to get an adapter, hands down.

[Paranoid]

Cuz he wud nvr steer u wrng!

 

Um... anyhow...

 

LOL. Trust me... buying a CC2 is something I'm *still* trying to come to terms with. It seems like... such a... COLLECTOR kind of thing to do. If I start paying for empty boxes, you have my permission to shoot me in my head. There is no saving someone that far gone.

 

I think you should pick up two new flex circuits and do the foil dot thing, and you'll probably be stoked.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ATARI-5200-Joystick-Co...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

(not my auction).

 

Two of them plus shipping is going to be about $15.

 

The buttons not working when pressed can be two things... the carbon on the buttons gets a film on them. Replacing with foil is one way to fix them (and probably the longest lasting), or you can rub the dots on card-stock, which will actually leave long marks like a pencil. This cleans the carbon and exposes fresh carbon that will make a better connection. If that doesn't work, and cleaning the flex circuit doesn't work... then you either need to do what you're talking about or just replace the flex circuit altogether.

[Paranoid]

All this talk about being cheapskates, and then I go and recommend you pay twice as much...

 

Actually, Best Electronics sells the flex circuit for $2.75 ea. plus shipping.

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/cx52_j.htm

[JB]

Don't own aluminum foil?

I'm cheap too. Hence why I just grabbed a bottle of superglue and tore off a few tiny dots of aluminum foil.

I've fixed many a TV remote and a few C-64 keyboards like that! Tho I got tired of the superglue cracking and the dots falling off over time so I eventualy upgraded to using self-stick aluminum duct tape (because I happened to have some laying around), unfortunatly those dots fall off sometimes too. I should consider going back to regular aluminum foil and using rubber or contact cement.

I wish I'd thought of rubber cement.

 

At the same time, maybe it is your climate, or the rev of the flex circuit, but I don't encounter the kind of issues you're encountering. It must be a LOOOOONG stretch between sessions for you if you have to repair the stick every time you want to use your 5200.

Well, again, it spent the first 15 years of it's life in S.Florida in an unconditioned house. My issues are a mix of two things. Both Flexi circuit issues. The typical issue of various buttons not responding when pressed. Also corroding flexi circuit traces that need to be jumpered, this I contribute to climate. And yeah, I can go a year or two between sessions. (Hey, only said I liked the system, never said I was dedicated to it! )

I doubt modern issues are climate. I overhauled mine because I was losing control after a week of inactivity. Thsi was a Rev9 metal-trace circuit, and Dallas isn't exactly known for humidity(and there's certainly no saltwater in the air).

 

Of course, it's always the same buttons(fire, start, asterisk, pound), so it's probably just the end result of chronic abuse

[Shawn]

There is no need to debait the controller, Just buy one that works, and I stress the fact that it works and make your own assesment. It's not like you can't turn arounbd and sell it if you don't like it cause there are many of us that do enjoy the 5200 stick and pay a premium for ones on in good working order. To hell with what everyone else thinks, Just try it for yourself, thats what Iended up doing and I found it to be a very good controller. Maybe you will feel the same maybe you won't. Only one way to find out.

[Paranoid]

Good point Shawn. Some people simply don't like the controller and can't adjust to it's quirks. I guess there is nothing wrong with that. I've known people who swore by sticks that I found completely unusable. That little Epyx job with the wrap around button that sits in the palm of your hand comes to mind. And Shawn's point is good. If you put a completely refurbished stick, I'm sure if you decided you didn't like it and offered it here for, say, $30-35 plus shipping and handling, someone would snap it up.

[PacManPlus]

Going off-topic for a sec, Every time I see your username, Paranoid, I think of Ozzy / Black Sabbath (kick-a** song!)