if the 5200 was released today..

[Artlover]

{hugs Nova}

[ZylonBane]

In the PC world, the QWERTY keyboard and scroll mouse is the standard. While there ARE alternatives, that is the interface everyone has. To add to that, there's a very vocal PC gaming component that insists it's the only true gaming option and that any alternative, however mild it's diffrences, is blasphemy and will doom you to rot in Hell.

Oh bull. PC gamers in general recognize that mouse/keyboard is ideal for certain genres like RTS and FPS, and merely tolerable for other genres like flight and driving sims, where a good flight stick or steering wheel are preferable. And of course it's practically expected that heavy users of MAME and other emulators will have a gamepad handy. The only consistent mockery I've ever seen is directed at people who insist on playing FPSs with a gamepad.

[jaybird3rd]

Oh bull. PC gamers in general recognize that mouse/keyboard is ideal for certain genres like RTS and FPS, and merely tolerable for other genres like flight and driving sims, where a good flight stick or steering wheel are preferable. And of course it's practically expected that heavy users of MAME and other emulators will have a gamepad handy. The only consistent mockery I've ever seen is directed at people who insist on playing FPSs with a gamepad.

Yes, but fighting/driving sims and emulators are a minority among PC games. The ones that the really hard-core gamers are building those killer gaming rigs for (the stupid-looking machines with the neon lights, transparent cases, bubbling water, and lava lamps built into them) are FPS and RTS games. I actually have met PC gamers who hate consoles and insist on using the mouse/keyboard exclusively, but of course those are twelve-year-olds who've never used anything else.

[Artlover]

I actually have met PC gamers who hate consoles and insist on using the mouse/keyboard exclusively, but of course those are twelve-year-olds who've never used anything else.

Even that's stupid because many consoles have keyboards/mice and games that support them.

 

{goes and plays Unreal Tournament with keyboard and mouse on his Dreamcast}

[Paranoid]

And there aren't ALTERNATIVE controllers available for the XBox? I've got a pad that looks like a little steering wheel, I've got the X-Arcade adaptor for the XBox, which would support the single, dual, or trackball.

 

And the idea that a keyboard and a mouse are the ideal controllers *is* so PC centric it simply illustrates the locked mind-set of PC gaming. That this "is" the standardized controller interface for the PC explains why the PC is so focused on certain types of games and struggles with any genere outside of that scope. While I agree that in general the mouse/keyboard works well for most FPSs and CFRP games, beyond that it becomes a dubious method of control at best. I'd rather suffer with a d-pad through an occasional FPS like Halo on the XBox, then have great control in Doom 3 but shitty control in almost every other type of game that might be available.

 

As far as the original topic getting sidetracked, I think it was inievitable. It is too vauge of a question. If the 5200 were released today, would it succeed? Either, OBVIOUSLY not... or, there are a bunch of questions... did the NES, Genesis, and other post-5200 consoles ever get released? Did we move from 8 bit to 16 bit to 32 bit to... Or is the assumption that the 2600 has ruled the roost for the last 30 years and the only PC you can get is still an Apple II or build it yourself kit for an inflationary adjusted $15,000.

 

If time stopped, time stopped... if it moved on, it moved on. I think the commonly held belief is that the 5200 was gaining steam and outselling the Colecovision at the time of the crash, but the crash was the end of the line for everybody.

 

And, on the sticks... you know, a LOT of your cel phones use the exact same carbon dot, flex-pad technology inside them that the 5200 pioneered, and generally do not have the long term problems associated with the 5200 sticks, despite the fact that their keypads arguably get more use and take more abuse than the 5200 stick.

 

You don't need to switch to a circuit card to fix the 5200 stick. The 5200 was simply a pioneer in this technology. If the stick were designed today and manufactured in mass by a large corporation, my guess is that the carbon-flex design would work fine.

[JagFan422]

If the 5200 was released today in a flash back type of format, i think it would be a BIG hit, and i think you'd see the demand for the actual hardware sky rocket. I've probably said this 20 times, but this is hands down my favorite retro console, and i'm sure i'm not alone. Plus the fact that there probably aren't to many people that know about the 5200, to get a flashback version with maybe 20 of the best games, would open up a door to retro fun that most people would never have known before.

[ZylonBane]

And the idea that a keyboard and a mouse are the ideal controllers *is* so PC centric it simply illustrates the locked mind-set of PC gaming.

Apparently I have to repeat myself: for the majority of PC gamers, the mindset you describe simply doesn't exist. Go wander through any store that sells PC hardware-- odds are, you'll find several shelves of gamepads, flight sticks, trackballs, wheels, pedals, and other oddball controllers. This isn't some niche thing. Companies like Thrustmaster, Logitech, Saitek, and even Microsoft have been making PC game controllers for decades.

 

PC gaming is actually more conducive to alternate controllers than console gaming, because you sit right at the computer. Switching controllers on a console requires getting up, walking to the console, and swapping cables around. On a PC, you just set one controller aside and pick up another. If you configure things right you can even leave them all plugged in at once.

[NovaXpress]

I have a couple of console-only friends who always argue that they don't like PC gaming because they can't use a keyboard and mouse. I don't know how to make it sink in that there are many other options. It's like they refuse to believe that they can use a gamepad on PC no matter what the evidence. They've seen my various controllers and they still argue about it evey time I mention a good game on the PC. "I can't use a mouse." WTF?

[JagFan422]

for FPS i use the keyboard, but other games on my PC i use my game pad. I got an awesome game pad, but for some reason, probably since i've been playing FPS from the days of WOLF3d, i can't shake using the keyboard with those.

[NovaXpress]

Well for FPS (or TBS or RTS for that matter) keyboard/mouse remains the best option. I also prefer it for the GTA games, a million times better than using a pad.

[ZylonBane]

I got an awesome game pad, but for some reason, probably since i've been playing FPS from the days of WOLF3d, i can't shake using the keyboard with those.

Nor should you want to. Errm, provided you're talking about keyboard+mouse. If you're saying you play FPSs with keyboard only....

[Paranoid]

And the idea that a keyboard and a mouse are the ideal controllers *is* so PC centric it simply illustrates the locked mind-set of PC gaming.

Apparently I have to repeat myself: for the majority of PC gamers, the mindset you describe simply doesn't exist. Go wander through any store that sells PC hardware-- odds are, you'll find several shelves of gamepads, flight sticks, trackballs, wheels, pedals, and other oddball controllers. This isn't some niche thing. Companies like Thrustmaster, Logitech, Saitek, and even Microsoft have been making PC game controllers for decades.

 

PC gaming is actually more conducive to alternate controllers than console gaming, because you sit right at the computer. Switching controllers on a console requires getting up, walking to the console, and swapping cables around. On a PC, you just set one controller aside and pick up another. If you configure things right you can even leave them all plugged in at once.

 

 

And *all* of those PC controller alternatives are LACKING. Evidently we have to repeat OURSELVES... the difference is that all PC games design for default assuming a Keyboard and/or Mouse as the *standard* and expected interface, and try to accomodate a variety of non-standardized aftermarket controllers into the game as an afterthought. On a console, the Green X button is going to be mapped the same on EVERY controller, even aftermarket ones (It would, after all, be stupid to make one otherwise). On a PC controller, button "9" may be the top button, or the side button, or the depressed hat button, or any button, from one controller to another... Not to mention all the other fun issues like calibration and driver issues with PC controllers.

 

The mindset we describe *is* the dominant paradigm within the PC gaming industry, and the millions of PC users that constantly seek out and buy alternative controllers illustrates two things... The demand for something OTHER than the keyboard and mouse is huge and, no one has gotten it right yet.

[jetset]

It's a ridiculous question. This topic deserved to be sidetracked.

You're being unusualy pissy tonight. Anything wrong?

 

I think someone dropped a 5200 on Nova's head or he stubbed his toe on one.

[JB]

Oh bull. PC gamers in general recognize that mouse/keyboard is ideal for certain genres like RTS and FPS

Actually, they're both fundamentally flawed as gaming interfaces.

 

A keyboard may mnake a decent secondary input. But it shoudln't be the primary controller. The mouse is just plain broken for anything beyond the single-screen navigation it was designed for.

 

 

 

Without getting excessively elaborate, I'd take a Speedpad n52 and a trackball as a major improvement.

If we start expending actual EFFORT on the concept, the possibilities are endless.

 

 

 

The only consistent mockery I've ever seen is directed at people who insist on playing FPSs with a gamepad.

Odd, because I see it every time I mention I use a trackball instead of a mouse for ANY purpose, even simple GUI navigation. And that's a very minor deviation from the norm.

[ZylonBane]

The mouse is just plain broken for anything beyond the single-screen navigation it was designed for.

Millions of FPS enthusiasts would beg to differ. If there was anything better, it would have caught on by now.

[Bryan]

And, on the sticks... you know, a LOT of your cel phones use the exact same carbon dot, flex-pad technology inside them that the 5200 pioneered, and generally do not have the long term problems associated with the 5200 sticks, despite the fact that their keypads arguably get more use and take more abuse than the 5200 stick.

 

I don't think Atari really pioneered carbonized rubber switches. I bet they just saw it as a way to make a cheaper joystick with a lot of buttons. When those kinds of contacts are used, gold plating is almost always used on the circuit side. Had Atari done this the sticks would probably be known as sloppy non-centering analog sticks, not sloppy non-centering analog sticks with failure-prone buttons.

 

-Bry

[JB]

The mouse is just plain broken for anything beyond the single-screen navigation it was designed for.

Millions of FPS enthusiasts would beg to differ. If there was anything better, it would have caught on by now.

Sadly, no. Once a device gets etablished, it's almost impossible to replace.

The mouse is an established peripheral, and anything attempting to replace it has an uphill battle from day 1 because of it.

 

Anyways, I'm through with this particular line of debate. It's not going to go anywhere but circles.

[ZylonBane]

Sadly, no. Once a device gets etablished, it's almost impossible to replace.

Oh please. The gamepad completely displaced the joystick in a single console generation. Input devices aren't fashion accessories, they're functional. The mouse wouldn't be such a popular gaming input device if it didn't do the job really, really well.

 

Back when Doom first came out, people were accustomed to using the keyboard (or, yes, a gamepad) to control the primitive first-person shooters of the day. But Doom also included mouse support. And deathmatch. And in facing off against other players, the community discovered something-- mouse players consistently wiped the floor with keyboard players. By allowing you to turn as quickly and precisely as you could move your hand, it was demonstrably the superior control option.

 

"Just plain broken", eh? Yeah, right. You're a funny guy.

[jetset]

The mouse is just plain broken for anything beyond the single-screen navigation it was designed for.

Millions of FPS enthusiasts would beg to differ. If there was anything better, it would have caught on by now.

Sadly, no. Once a device gets etablished, it's almost impossible to replace.

The mouse is an established peripheral, and anything attempting to replace it has an uphill battle from day 1 because of it.

 

Anyways, I'm through with this particular line of debate. It's not going to go anywhere but circles.

 

I told you not to feed it.

[Paranoid]

The mouse is just plain broken for anything beyond the single-screen navigation it was designed for.

Millions of FPS enthusiasts would beg to differ. If there was anything better, it would have caught on by now.

 

 

I've got to disagree with this. I was a member of [32nd] Bergaders, ([32nd]Clymidia) world ranked in the top 1000-1500 players on Q3A, and kept associations with some of the biggest FPS enthusiasts around. I was the guy who friends were always telling me, "You've got to meet this guy, he is your match", and he *never* was. It might be close, but I would always squeek the overall win out of these competitions. (The fact that my FIRST FPS was MidiMaze probably doesn't hurt, either). I'm a mouse and keyboard guy. The guy who got me *into* the clan was a guy who I basically tutored. He endured *much* ass-whupping at my hands for months and months during his "training", and never gave up. Eventually, he became a worthy adversary with the mouse and keyboard. When my experience wasn't helping him grow in the game anymore, he went out looking for other advice, and someone turned him onto this joystick contraption. I hated the thing, but he said, "everyone who is REALLY good at Q3A swears by this thing" and stuck at it. For 3 weeks or so, it was just like old times, with me happily handing him his ass, running circles around him as he backpeddled off platforms and into the lava. Then, it clicked for him, and he was suddenly in-fucking-vincible. It wasn't even a contest (his handle was [32nd]Cyberian, and he was eventually world-ranked higher than I). He created custom scripting to the various controls on the stick, so, for example, his hat would scroll *and* adjust sensitivity, and a certain button would execute a perfect rocket jump every time... it just made a night-and-day difference. He was always on the right gun, he was always able to move fluidly and track flawlessly regardless of what weapon he had active, his aim was deadly accurate and his ability to dodge your fire was uncanny. We had been enduring claims that we were either using wall hacks or aimbots for quite awhile at this point, but once he adapted to this controller, even the *best* players on any server we came across started accusing him of using an aimbot after just a round or two. It got so bad people noticed that we never killed each other (which was just a clan courtesy. You would run right by another clan member and ignore his kill if you came on him in a firefight), and started complaining, so we strated fighting each other (to my dismay). We had always swore off on Quad-whoring, going so far as to kill ourselves in a way that placed the Quad out of reach if we accidently picked it up. Cyberian got so good he stopped picking up any power ups, no megahealth, no red armor, nothing but weapons. And he *still* kicked ass. If I hadn't played right across from him, I would have thought he was cheating, myself. And it just wasn't him. Lots of the MOST enthusiastic players I knew swore by this controller for FPSs, in particular, for Q3a.

 

This is *better*... *if* you're willing to put in the time and effort to configure it properly and learn to adapt to it. I wish I could remember the name. It was geared toward FPSers, though. It had a small trackball built into it, and buttons for 3 or four fingers above that, and a stick with hat and multiple triggers off to the left. Anyhow... *most* "FPS enthusiasts" are simply frag-fodder for those *few* of us who are *really* good. If that sounds arrogant, believe it... that is how the best people in the most competitive clans feel. 8 out of 10 players I ran into were no challenge. Of the remaining 2, 6 out of 10 of *them* were simply a challenge, but not a threat. I imagine the remaining 4 out of that 10, 2 out of 4 of them were probably using this device and advanced scripting. The majority of FPS enthusiasts are really, really horrible players. I doubt any controller would help improve their game.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Paranoid

[JB]

The mouse is just plain broken for anything beyond the single-screen navigation it was designed for.

Millions of FPS enthusiasts would beg to differ. If there was anything better, it would have caught on by now.

Sadly, no. Once a device gets etablished, it's almost impossible to replace.

The mouse is an established peripheral, and anything attempting to replace it has an uphill battle from day 1 because of it.

 

Anyways, I'm through with this particular line of debate. It's not going to go anywhere but circles.

 

I told you not to feed it.

Hey, I had to bow out.

 

And it IS my last comment on the subject, much as it pains me to leave ignorant drivel uncorrected.

[Paranoid]

Sadly, no. Once a device gets etablished, it's almost impossible to replace.

Oh please. The gamepad completely displaced the joystick in a single console generation. Input devices aren't fashion accessories, they're functional. The mouse wouldn't be such a popular gaming input device if it didn't do the job really, really well.

 

Back when Doom first came out, people were accustomed to using the keyboard (or, yes, a gamepad) to control the primitive first-person shooters of the day. But Doom also included mouse support. And deathmatch. And in facing off against other players, the community discovered something-- mouse players consistently wiped the floor with keyboard players. By allowing you to turn as quickly and precisely as you could move your hand, it was demonstrably the superior control option.

 

"Just plain broken", eh? Yeah, right. You're a funny guy.

 

 

The gamepad replaced the joystick POST crash after a several year lull in a struggling market that no one thought would re-emerge to ever challenge the home PC gaming market. There were several factors that contributed to the success of the gamepad in replacing the joystick that go beyond the device themselves. If the 7800 had been a more viable machine popular in Europe and Japan with Proline joysticks from an EARLY point, we might never have experienced the blight which is the d-pad.

 

I was also unstoppable in Doom deathmatch, and I was a pure keyboard player back then. The first time I got my ass whupped against a mouser was in Quake I... and it wasn't about preceision in looking left or right or an inability to circle strafe, but instead the inability to look up and down quickly that taught me that it was time to evolve. I think Duke Nuke 'Em was another one where I honed my mousing abilities. But I know I made it through all the early DOOMs without ever picking up a mouse, and if I ever came across a mouser, I certainly didn't *lose* to them.

[NovaXpress]

SUMMARY OF THE PAST TWO PAGES: My input device is bigger than your input device

[Paranoid]

LOL!

[Nukey Shay]

I dunno...the output devices have been kinda productive.