How Atari Could Have Saved The 5200

[darklord1977]

have better marketing is number one.. and second and most important have better 5200 sticks !

 

 

galaga on the 5200 would have been a good idea..but they already had galaxian so ,i guess atari thought they didnt need it on that system

[Godzilla]

How atari could have saved the 5200... hmmm.. Imagine, if you can, that Atari made a console current to the time with the current tech, rather than releasing a cut-down re-boxed version of one of their old computers... I think things would have been very different...

[carmel_andrews]

As the 5200 was basically a rev. engin. 400/800 (hardware and shadow mem.loc's. moved)

 

Atari should and could have offered a low cost keyboard and emulator cartridge upgrade, so that 5200 users could use all the A8's carts

 

This is because research done by atari and other leading hardware manuf's at the time seemed to suggest that consumers were moving more and more into games hardware that could be upgraded to a computer

 

The emulator cart would have an additional pokey (to drive the sio port which is built into the cart.) so you can use all A8 disk software (as tape software wasn't available/popular in the US)

 

1 Question though, did sear's ever get round to doing their version of the 5200 (like they did with 2600 and 7800)

Edited May 10, 2006 by carmel_andrews

[JB]

How atari could have saved the 5200... hmmm.. Imagine, if you can, that Atari made a console current to the time with the current tech, rather than releasing a cut-down re-boxed version of one of their old computers... I think things would have been very different...

Or released the 5200 when the chipset was originally designed instead of stealing it for a computer and canning the next-gen console.

Remember, the chipset was designed FOR a game console. It was just for one that never came out.

[jbanes]

Or released the 5200 when the chipset was originally designed instead of stealing it for a computer and canning the next-gen console.

Remember, the chipset was designed FOR a game console. It was just for one that never came out.

That's a good point. I'm a bit curious, though. Does anyone understand the interplay inside of Atari between the design of the Atari 8-bits board and the cancellation of the 3200? Some of the questions in my mind are:

• Why didn't they release a PAM console in parallel with the Atari 400/800 release?
  
• Why did they decide to create a *new* console in response to the Intellivison when they already had one?
  
• Why did Atari decide to redeisgn the 2600 controllers as the Prolines when they already had the excellent 2700/Sylvia designs?
  

There's just so much about the 5200 history that doesn't seem to add up. One could almost swear that Atari was suffering from multiple personality disorder, and was unable to do anything other than start brand-new projects. Not to mention this infatuation with copying the competitor. The Sylvia had a 10-bit processor while the 5200 had a (mostly useless) keypad. WHY? Especially given that the Intellvision's power stemmed more from the STIC design and less from the processor itself. (Which was actually a) 16-bit and b) clocked slower than the 6502.)

[Goochman]

I think it came down to competiton from the Console side of the house vs the Computer side of the house.

 

Computer side didnt get much love back then.

[jbanes]

I think it came down to competiton from the Console side of the house vs the Computer side of the house.

 

Computer side didnt get much love back then.

*nods* I suppose. Though wouldn't the computer side have been the former console side? Given that it was going to be the next console anyway, that is.

[JB]

Or released the 5200 when the chipset was originally designed instead of stealing it for a computer and canning the next-gen console.

Remember, the chipset was designed FOR a game console. It was just for one that never came out.

That's a good point. I'm a bit curious, though. Does anyone understand the interplay inside of Atari between the design of the Atari 8-bits board and the cancellation of the 3200? Some of the questions in my mind are:

 

Why didn't they release a PAM console in parallel with the Atari 400/800 release?

Because TimeWarner didn't want to hurt the VCS/2600.

Remember, even AFTER launching the 5200, they only provided it with half-assed support, while the bulk of their resources went to the increasingly dated 2600.

 

Why did they decide to create a *new* console in response to the Intellivison when they already had one?

Well, they only had a chipset, not an entire design. The controller options were never laid out, nor was the memory map and such.

 

I suspect that beyond that, the computer division was throwing a fit about the console department "stealing our chipset!", so they started in on the 10-bit system, and when the programmers started rioting(Umm, guys? It can't seriously be HARDER than the 2600) they just said "to hell with it" and "stole" the A400 because they didn't have time to develop a THIRD chipset.

 

Why did Atari decide to redeisgn the 2600 controllers as the Prolines when they already had the excellent 2700/Sylvia designs?

It's a secret to everybody.

But the 2700 sticks only had one fire button. That undoubtedly factored in. Single-button controllers weren't feasable anymore.

 

There's just so much about the 5200 history that doesn't seem to add up. One could almost swear that Atari was suffering from multiple personality disorder, and was unable to do anything other than start brand-new projects. Not to mention this infatuation with copying the competitor. The Sylvia had a 10-bit processor while the 5200 had a (mostly useless) keypad. WHY? Especially given that the Intellvision's power stemmed more from the STIC design and less from the processor itself. (Which was actually a) 16-bit and b) clocked slower than the 6502.)

They WERE schizophrenic, is the short answer.

The computer and console divisions were fighting with each other, and the higher-ups were trying to prevent any new game machine from competing with the 2600, which they thought was a magic device that excreted gold instead of a dated video game machine.

[jbanes]

Mmmm... a lot of good points there. It must have been a lot of *cough* fun to work for Atari in those days.

 

Why did Atari decide to redeisgn the 2600 controllers as the Prolines when they already had the excellent 2700/Sylvia designs?

It's a secret to everybody.

But the 2700 sticks only had one fire button. That undoubtedly factored in. Single-button controllers weren't feasable anymore.

 

Still, adding another button is a lot less work than designing a new controller. From this photo, it seems that Atari added the second button at some point in the Sylvia's development. What's interesting, though, is that the image looks a lot closer to what became the 5200 controller. So I guess the answer to my own question might be that Atari wanted something *different* than the 5200 controller, and they felt that the 5200 lineage tainted the Sylvia controller.

[JB]

Mmmm... a lot of good points there. It must have been a lot of *cough* fun to work for Atari in those days.

 

Why did Atari decide to redeisgn the 2600 controllers as the Prolines when they already had the excellent 2700/Sylvia designs?

It's a secret to everybody.

But the 2700 sticks only had one fire button. That undoubtedly factored in. Single-button controllers weren't feasable anymore.

 

Still, adding another button is a lot less work than designing a new controller. From this photo, it seems that Atari added the second button at some point in the Sylvia's development. What's interesting, though, is that the image looks a lot closer to what became the 5200 controller. So I guess the answer to my own question might be that Atari wanted something *different* than the 5200 controller, and they felt that the 5200 lineage tainted the Sylvia controller.

Actually, that stick has 7800 fire buttons. It's a hybrid device that bears a relationship to BOTH systems.

 

If you take that photo, make the stick taller, the base narrower, and scrap the face buttons, you have a 7800 stick.

If you move the pause/reset buttons, add start, and double-up the fire buttons, you have a 5200 stick(ignoring diffrences in button construction).

[carmel_andrews]

remove the built in analog joyticks and replace them with redesigned CX40's but having a re-inforced metal shaft instead of the plastic one and a more durable fire button and contacts and preferably 2 fire buttons, so that the joysticks will feel confortable with both left and right handers

 

And built in 2600 compat. so you didn't have to wait ages for a 5200 compat. game (instead of buying an optioned 2600 adapter)

Edited May 15, 2006 by carmel_andrews

[Rybags]

How to save the 5200?

 

Simple: a downrated XEGS. The XEGS was a great idea, but about 6 years too late.

[JB]

remove the built in analog joyticks and replace them with redesigned CX40's but having a re-inforced metal shaft instead of the plastic one and a more durable fire button and contacts and preferably 2 fire buttons, so that the joysticks will feel confortable with both left and right handers

But the CX-40 is an abysmally poorly-designed controller to start with. Yes, worse than the 5200.

 

Even ignoring that it's an ergonomic nightmare, it's inadequate for the games of the 5200 era, which often required more than one fire button.

This is without adding the "convenience" of on-stick controls for starting, pausing, and configuring the game, which should be MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS.

 

You could easily code a purely stick-driven menu for configuration, as was done on the NES and later, but people hadn't yet thought of that for home use(arcades had this feature already, though).

 

 

Even with no menu, the phonepad's utility for game configuration is highly questionable. You could include a much smaller set of, say, 3 buttonsand get 99% of the configuration functionality seen on the 5200 in actual use(# selects mode, * selects players. Wow, how advanced...). This also gets you Countermeasure's passcode entry as well as Defender's hyperspace key(and leaves you with room to add Stargate's cloaking button later).

Arguably, the phone pad was justified by making a Star Raiders port feasable, but it set a minimum controller size that was too large, making a 2600-style seperate keyboard a more attractive option for Star Raiders.

 

 

 

And built in 2600 compat. so you didn't have to wait ages for a 5200 compat. game (instead of buying an optioned 2600 adapter)

Or take the Nintendo approach and show people how to hook 2 RF switches together(Nintendo went so far as to advertise this "feature" on the box).

 

The people that cared about 2600 compatibility were largely people that already OWNED a 2600. Or would've been if Atari had offered the 5200 decent software support so that the 2600 wasn't getting lots of high-profile exclusive titles.

 

There's no real need to cripple the system to make it backwards-compatible*, just show the 2600 owners how to connect 2 systems at once.

Heck, you can even go one better than Nintendo did by including an AC socket on the back of the 5200 power supply so the 2600 supply can "piggyback" on the 5200 brick.

 

 

 

 

*While it's possible to do so now, I don't think technology of the Atari era was at the level where you could make a backwards-compatible system affordably WITHOUT restricting what the new system could do. Certianly not if the 7800 is any indication.

[Kalvan]

Frankly, I would have started way back in 1977, and pursuaded Nolan Bushnell not to sell Atari Japan free to become Namco. Not only did mean we couldn't leverage the revenues of Galaxian, Galaga, and Pac Man, but it also meant there was no ready channel for the 2800, so it would arrive three years late, just in time to be clobbered by the Nintendo Famicom, and then moved on from there.

 

However, if I absolutely had to start in 1981, here's what I would do:

 

Backward Compatibility with the 2600 is a must. Sylvia, and even SALLY will let me do that If I can somehow incorproate modified GTIA that includes 2600 TIA into the chipset as well as POKEY.

 

Redesign the Controller. We don't need that keypad, we need three action buttons (Left, Center (on top of the stick), Right), Start, and posibly Select. Remove the guides on the joystick, and redesign the rolling/centering mechanism along the lines of the Sega Dreamcast's analog stick (work carefully with Insurance Underwriters inc. to torture test it's self centering ability). And add some kind of grasping shape, like on the 7800's controller (the only unique element from the 7800 I'd put on it). Oh, yeah, and a toggle switch between analog and digital modes. And if it won't compromise the design and/or break the bank, add dial functionality a la the Japanese market 2800.

 

If I can, I'll try to design the graphical hardware so that scrolling in any direction is butter smooth.

 

More sprites. (players and missles) Considering their size, I ideally would like to put 16 total onscreen at any one time. I want the Robotron games to play at arcade quality, up to the last levels. I want Galaga to be able to have separate logic for all the foes it has on screen at one time.

 

Most importantly, I need a killer app. The first pack-in game will be Pac Man. In 1983, I'll replace it with Pac-Land. If need be, I'll go straight to Namco in Japan to license it.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Kalvan

[Retro Rogue]

And a 2006 thread revival.....

 

Frankly, I would have started way back in 1977, and pursuaded Nolan Bushnell not to sell Atari Japan free to become Namco.

 

Then you would have been to late. It was sold in 1974. Atari Inc. was extremely close to declaring bankruptcy (yet again) and needed to get rid of the expansion. That's also why, coincidentally, they "merged" with Kee Games. And you're off on the naming - NAMCO was already in existence. Nakamura Manufacturing Corporation and was founded in 1954, and began using the NAMCO name in 1971. The purchase of Atari Japan was so they could enter coin-op games.

 

Not only did mean we couldn't leverage the revenues of Galaxian, Galaga, and Pac Man,

 

Those games would most likely not have been done. They are a direct result of the buildup of Namco's coin-op division after the purchase, after Hideyuki Nakajima was asked to stay on and do so. This is also what lead to expanding to create a US division.

 

but it also meant there was no ready channel for the 2800,

 

Huh? They already had distribution channels there. Likewise having a direct presence wouldn't have helped, the 2800 was to late. They would have been better off releasing a Japanese 5200.

 

so it would arrive three years late, just in time to be clobbered by the Nintendo Famicom, and then moved on from there.

 

Again a bit off. That's assuming the 2800 was available 3 years earlier - which it was not. And the domination of the market by Nintendo did not happen right away in 1983. In actuality, the 2600 looked old compared to all the consoles on the Japanese market at the time.

 

However, if I absolutely had to start in 1981, here's what I would do:

 

Backward Compatibility with the 2600 is a must. Sylvia, and even SALLY will let me do that If I can somehow incorproate modified GTIA that includes 2600 TIA into the chipset as well as POKEY.

 

Backwards compatibility was planned all the way up until just before the release.

 

 

*fantasy stuff out of touch with the then current engineering, design, etc. operations, removed*

 

Most importantly, I need a killer app. The first pack-in game will be Pac Man. In 1983, I'll replace it with Pac-Land. If need be, I'll go straight to Namco in Japan to license it.

 

Pac-Land? Why on earth would you replace it with an obscure title like that?

Edited December 22, 2009 by wgungfu

[Kalvan]

And a 2006 thread revival.....

Pac-Land? Why on earth would you replace it with an obscure title like that?

 

Because if it could be pulled off at arcade quality (and there would have been no excuse why it couldn't have been with the hardware I was proposing) it would have been the 5200's Super Mario Brothers.

[8th lutz]

In 1983, I'll replace it with Pac-Land. If need be, I'll go straight to Namco in Japan to license it.

That would be tough to do with Pac-Land since Pac-Land was released in the arcades in 1984 and it would throw off your plan off releasing Pac-Land in 1983 as a result.

Edited December 22, 2009 by 8th lutz

[Kalvan]

In 1983, I'll replace it with Pac-Land. If need be, I'll go straight to Namco in Japan to license it.

That would be tough to do with Pac-Land since Pac-Land was released in the arcades in 1984 and it would throw off your plan off releasing Pac-Land in 1983 as a result.

 

Well, then, I'll replace it in 1983 with Pac Man jr, and Pac Land will get a 1984 release...

 

Wait a minute: I distinctly remember playing it on my 8th birthday at Chuck E. Cheese in 1983. I distinctly remember getting to the fourth trip on one token.

[tz101]

First, release the 5200 with 2600 backward compatibility out of the gate.

 

Second, release two expansion modules, ala Coleco, that would allow the 5200 to play all Intellivision and Colecovision carts. Coleco had already won this battle in the courts, so mimicking these other consoles would have been legally permissible.

 

Third, Release the 5200 with Jr. Pac Man as the pack-in title.

 

Fourth, quit releasing old 2600 rehashes as 5200 games. Go for previously unreleased titles like Joust, Moon Patrol, Galaga, etc.

 

Fifth, create a cooperative relationship with both Activision and Imagic, practically begging them to come up with new and fresh titles for the 5200 instead of tired old re-releases of Pitfall and Kaboom.

 

Sixth, make the controller ports have exactly the same pin configuration as the VCS, allowing CX-40 sticks for games like Pac Man if so desired. Another advantage to the same controller ports would have been the ability to use VCS paddles for games like Breakout and Kaboom.

 

Last, marketing, marketing, marketing. With the aforementioned expansion modules, the 5200 could have truly boasted the largest library of titles of any of that generation of game consoles.

[8th lutz]

I own 2 ports of Pac-Land. I have the tg-16 port and Pac-Land on Namco Museum Vol. 4 for the Playstation. The two I Pac-Lands I have has the 1984 arcade release date on it. Even Killer List of video games had 1984 for Pac-Land. The proof is http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=8955 .

Edited December 22, 2009 by 8th lutz

[Retro Rogue]

 

Well, then, I'll replace it in 1983 with Pac Man jr, and Pac Land will get a 1984 release...

 

And how would you do that? It was a Midway game, not a Namco. It wasn't covered by the extremely large licensing paid to Namco by Warner. Likewise once again another obscure title, failing marketing 101.

 

Wait a minute: I distinctly remember playing it on my 8th birthday at Chuck E. Cheese in 1983. I distinctly remember getting to the fourth trip on one token.

 

And you are distinctly wrong. It was released in '84, even the game's title screen clearly states the year. In fact, it was the first of a set of games based on that 6809 hardware that Namco used.

[kool kitty89]

And a 2006 thread revival.....

 

Frankly, I would have started way back in 1977, and pursuaded Nolan Bushnell not to sell Atari Japan free to become Namco.

 

Then you would have been to late. It was sold in 1974. Atari Inc. was extremely close to declaring bankruptcy (yet again) and needed to get rid of the expansion. That's also why, coincidentally, they "merged" with Kee Games. And you're off on the naming - NAMCO was already in existence. Nakamura Manufacturing Corporation and was founded in 1954, and began using the NAMCO name in 1971. The purchase of Atari Japan was so they could enter coin-op games.

Looking at the point another way though, there were other possible investors that might have handeled Atari better than Warner did. (an electronics company perhaps, or Mattel maybe, or better, split between a few partners to avoid the direct influence Warner had over atari, a Japanese associate might have been a good idea as well, others than NAMCO to considder as well, like Taito) Perhaps avoidign some of Atari's important personell levaing (engineers and programmers like Miner and the Activision guys), not to mention the other management issues that fed into the problems culminating the the 1983 crash.

 

Huh? They already had distribution channels there. Likewise having a direct presence wouldn't have helped, the 2800 was to late. They would have been better off releasing a Japanese 5200.

Yeah, but a 2600 (not necessarily a 2800, but a just a normal VCS) released in Japan by 1980 or even '81 could have been significant. '83 was far too late, and I'd agree that the 5200 (with all its problems) would have been better by that point. (besides the early famicom had technical problems as well, and recalls)

 

Backwards compatibility was planned all the way up until just before the release.

Any specifics on why they dropped it? (cost, or time -with the colecovision looming) I'd though it had something to do with the 3200/sylvia design being abandoned and the 5200 being quickly thrown together (along with soem odd modifications, probably related to the relations of the computer and video game departments), with the new design not being cost effective to include compatibility.

 

Most importantly, I need a killer app. The first pack-in game will be Pac Man. In 1983, I'll replace it with Pac-Land. If need be, I'll go straight to Namco in Japan to license it.

 

Pac-Land? Why on earth would you replace it with an obscure title like that?

I agree, but besides Pac Man or Ms Pac man, Pitfall II would have been awsome, but that's Activision's (unless the preceding hypothetical of atari staff having more freedom was true) and not out until 1984. (like pac land) The downside of using Pac man or Ms Pac Man with the real 5200 is obvious the analog joystick. (althoch probably even an issue with ptfall at some points)

 

 

Redesign the Controller. We don't need that keypad, we need three action buttons (Left, Center (on top of the stick), Right), Start, and posibly Select. Remove the guides on the joystick, and redesign the rolling/centering mechanism along the lines of the Sega Dreamcast's analog stick (work carefully with Insurance Underwriters inc. to torture test it's self centering ability). And add some kind of grasping shape, like on the 7800's controller (the only unique element from the 7800 I'd put on it). Oh, yeah, and a toggle switch between analog and digital modes. And if it won't compromise the design and/or break the bank, add dial functionality a la the Japanese market 2800.

Minimalistically, and avoidign radical designs, a simple modification to the CX-10/CX-40 form factor with a 2nd fire button (ideally just below th e1st and smaller) would be the bare necessity. Simple 8-way digital control and 2 action buttons, like 7800 or SMS. It would be nice to add a start/pause button or 3rd action button (you should be able to add 2 buttons just by using the pot lines), of course you'd get more buttons with an anlog joystick, but that's unnecessary IMO. However, somethimg along the lines of the Vectrex controller would have been great, and perfectly feasible with the 2600 controller ports, but then you wouldn't have a natively backwards compatible controller. (5 digital inpus plus 2 analog axes) You could always have an analog controller as an accessory, plus the vectrex controller form factor would work equally well with a digital controller with 2-3 buttons. (and could be made more compact without the pots onboard)

 

A pause button on the console is acceptable as well, it is what the SMS and 7800 did after all. (and had the added benefit of being foolproof compared to software pause via start and a few NES titles have no pause functionality, like Ghostbusters II)

 

If I can, I'll try to design the graphical hardware so that scrolling in any direction is butter smooth.

ANTIC already handels smooth scrolling quite well.

 

More sprites. (players and missles) Considering their size, I ideally would like to put 16 total onscreen at any one time. I want the Robotron games to play at arcade quality, up to the last levels. I want Galaga to be able to have separate logic for all the foes it has on screen at one time.

Hmm, doesn't CTIA/GTIA (like TIA) have the ability to clone sprites, and thuse have multiple enemise using the identical sprite repeated several times? (especially useful for robotron and such)

Plus there's always software sprites as well as other tricks like Ms Pac man used instead. (allowing more sprites as long as they stayed on different scanlines, but using flicker when on the same scanline -NES and many others used this trick as well -Ms Pac man has the sprites turn the same color instead of flickering though)

 

However, by 1982/83 you definitely could have some technical advancements over the ca. 1979 chipset. (ie Famicom and C64 -the latter having a substancial color limitation due to its fixed 16-color palette, even the NES's or SMS's are arguably weaker than the 2600 or 5200's)

Edited December 22, 2009 by kool kitty89

[bohoki]

i agree the cx40 joystick stunk as to teh analog joystick it was ahead of its time they just needed to make the buttons freaking last more than about a month

 

back in the day my friend had the 5200 and we had to hit start with a penny

 

analogness was just fine hell apple used one ibm used one(thank goodness cause it is so fun trying out different ones on my adapter

 

they could have easaly offered an optional digital stick that just used the directions with a disclaimer about not being able to use it on missile command,starwars,gorf,superbreakout,kaboom

 

it was just too early to get a gamepad joystick and trackball was all we knew and ergonomics was just comming out remember that crazy kneeling chair i think that set back the ergonomic movement a decade

[Retro Rogue]

Looking at the point another way though, there were other possible investors that might have handeled Atari better than Warner did. (an electronics company perhaps, or Mattel maybe, or better, split between a few partners to avoid the direct influence Warner had over atari, a Japanese associate might have been a good idea as well, others than NAMCO to considder as well, like Taito) Perhaps avoidign some of Atari's important personell levaing (engineers and programmers like Miner and the Activision guys), not to mention the other management issues that fed into the problems culminating the the 1983 crash.

 

Couple problems - 1) They tried the multiple investors route, it wasn't going anywhere. 2) Without Warner, you would have never seen a lot of the industry innovations (both in product and marketing) that we did. Remember, they were able to leverage being a large media and communications company. There was a lot of good with the bad. 3) Getting rid of Namco and the Japan operations made sense. They were literally at death's door, and had no business trying to be international at the time. In contrast, the spin-off Key was having hit after hit. It made much more sense to bring them back in the fold and cut the Japanese portion out.

 

Yeah, but a 2600 (not necessarily a 2800, but a just a normal VCS) released in Japan by 1980 or even '81 could have been significant.

 

But you're talking about a relatively small market at that time, when Warner was busy building up Atari's presence on the rest of the world market (Canada, Mexico, Europe, Australia, etc.) And 2600's were imported in Japan before the 2800.

 

 

Any specifics on why they dropped it? (cost, or time -with the colecovision looming) I'd though it had something to do with the 3200/sylvia design being abandoned and the 5200 being quickly thrown together (along with soem odd modifications, probably related to the relations of the computer and video game departments), with the new design not being cost effective to include compatibility.

 

It was still being pushed at the Summer '82 CES (June) as being compatible. Sometime between then and the November launch something was decided against it. So I don't believe it had anything to do with the dropping of the 3200 as to why. And in regards to the quickly thrown together, I wouldn't exactly call it that - unless you're repeating Curt's old page on the 3200?

 

However, by 1982/83 you definitely could have some technical advancements over the ca. 1979 chipset. (ie Famicom and C64 -the latter having a substancial color limitation due to its fixed 16-color palette, even the NES's or SMS's are arguably weaker than the 2600 or 5200's)

 

By '83-'84 they were already working on the next gen graphics chips, plus the Amiga chipset console, etc. So they were keeping up with the demand. Remember, the 5200 was designed to kill the Intellivision. They had no idea that it would instead become part of a next generation/wave of 8-bit consoles with the Colecovision.

[Cebus Capucinis]

The Atari 5200 was beyond redemption. It was a project that was dead in the water from the very beginning.