Comparing the 5200 to the Atari 8-bit

[Paranoid]

Personally, I like the "point in a direction, hit the button" scheme. Once you adjust to it, it works very well... for me, anyhow.

 

Can someone point to a link for the 8 bit PB version?

[Lord Helmet]

Can someone point to a link for the 8 bit PB version?

 

 

http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?...VERSION_ID=5990

[Shannon]

The sierra version of frogger is better. It plays music the whole time.

[Paranoid]

We'll I'll be... it IS the same...

 

Heh. And yeah, on emulation with a Speedlink Pro, the 8 bit control version is superior to the 5200 version.

 

Is there a way to turn a .rom image into an .atr or .xex file?

 

I personally *really* like the graphics of the 8 bit/5200 version. I think they offer a certain enhancement over even the actual arcade version. I like that the music quits, too. Just a personal thing, but it makes it seem like the game is getting down to business... "Here is the cute intro song, it just quit, it is time to start focusing..."

[NE146]

Regarding 5200 guys bashing the 7800... well... first off, I've said this before... we're an angry bunch with a chip on our shoulder, and it is only human nature when you've been picked on to point at someone in worse shape than you and go, "leave me alone, pick on THAT dork... he is far worse than me..."

 

Speak for yourself.

 

I and other 5200 freaks I know who've been trolling these boards since they started loved the 7800 as well I don't understand how could anyone not?

[JB]

Honestly guys, is it a mantra for entry in the 5200 group to start randomly cutting down the 7800?

Only if you don't want to argue about controllers.

 

I'm going to totally go against the grain but ...

 

I don't think Atari had particularly good controllers on any system.

That's actually a fair assessment, IMO.

I've heard the Jaguar pads are nice, but they seem a bit short on action buttons to me. They fixed with a "6-button" pad later, but that was too late to really matter.

 

 

Personally, I like the "point in a direction, hit the button" scheme. Once you adjust to it, it works very well... for me, anyhow.

I'm weird. I like the keypad control scheme, though I'd tug down away from 8 and move it to 5.

[simbalion]

I wasn't trying to bash the 7800. I have one and have several games for it. I was just pointing on how it looked compared to the 5200 when released. Also I was just pointing out if the developement of a complete new system was neseccary when they almost had all the kinks worked fully out of the 5200 and it did have a 2600 adaptor.

[Shannon]

The sierra version of frogger allows you to turn of the music for those who do not like it.

[www.atarimania.com]

As for the Cart version of Frogger 8 bit/5200... that may be true. The images that are floating around out there are NOT a rom dump of the cart, then, but disk images of a variety of OTHER versions of Frogger. I've got probably 6 different copies of Frogger on my MyIDE cart, and NONE of them are the 5200 PB version.

Well, if you have six so-called "versions" of Frogger and not even the Parker Brothers release, this clearly means that your collection is disorganized... First of all, I would advise you NOT to rely on shitty archives like TOSEC and get rid of all games which don't have the proper extension (like fake ATR images).

 

There are only four releases of Frogger. Check our database and you'll see that they're properly defined:

- distinct Sierra On-Line prototype

- Sierra On-Line cassette (in original tape format)

- Sierra On-Line disk (as an Atari executable)

- Parker Brothers cartridge (in original cartridge format).

 

BTW, I believe you can run cartridge images directly with the FlashCart...

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[simbalion]

Ah, I knew I wasn't dreaming things! Atari was working on a smaller version of the 5200 dubbed the 5100. http://www.atarihq.com/museum/5200/5100.html

Now if I can just find where I saw the prototype for the improved controller.

Edited November 22, 2006 by simbalion

[NE146]

Atari 5200, Atari 400, Atari 800. All the same family. Same thing. More or less.

 

Just different I/O

[Paranoid]

As for the Cart version of Frogger 8 bit/5200... that may be true. The images that are floating around out there are NOT a rom dump of the cart, then, but disk images of a variety of OTHER versions of Frogger. I've got probably 6 different copies of Frogger on my MyIDE cart, and NONE of them are the 5200 PB version.

Well, if you have six so-called "versions" of Frogger and not even the Parker Brothers release, this clearly means that your collection is disorganized... First of all, I would advise you NOT to rely on shitty archives like TOSEC and get rid of all games which don't have the proper extension (like fake ATR images).

 

There are only four releases of Frogger. Check our database and you'll see that they're properly defined:

- distinct Sierra On-Line prototype

- Sierra On-Line cassette (in original tape format)

- Sierra On-Line disk (as an Atari executable)

- Parker Brothers cartridge (in original cartridge format).

 

BTW, I believe you can run cartridge images directly with the FlashCart...

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

Well, if you have six so-called "versions" of Frogger and not even the Parker Brothers release, this clearly means that your collection is disorganized... First of all, I would advise you NOT to rely on shitty archives like TOSEC and get rid of all games which don't have the proper extension (like fake ATR images).

 

There are only four releases of Frogger. Check our database and you'll see that they're properly defined:

- distinct Sierra On-Line prototype

- Sierra On-Line cassette (in original tape format)

- Sierra On-Line disk (as an Atari executable)

- Parker Brothers cartridge (in original cartridge format).

 

BTW, I believe you can run cartridge images directly with the FlashCart...

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

 

Is it that *I* am disorganized, or that it is simply hard to organize this portion of the Atari 8 bit library. Let's explore that. This is how my Atari800Win+ emulator appears. It is *also* how my 800XL MyIDE multicart appears, and how my XBox XPORT 800 emulation appears.

 

 

Yeah, that looks like the system of a highly disorganized individual, to me.

 

I hate these kind of arguments that attempt to shift blame, personally. I was just having a similar discussion in another thread regarding Linux, OS X and some of the counter arguments they present when their OSes are challenged. Also, your arguments about which image files should be used really kind of defeat the purpose of having a multi-cart, and the claimed advantages of having such a large and accessible library available for the 8 bit. In fact, there are a NUMBER of sites that are reputable that contain basically the entire 5200 library of rom images, and again, you've got ONE format... a cartridge ROM dump. Which is kind of my point. The 5200 has, by it's very nature, all of the advantages one associates with a console, whereas the 8 bit carries all of the disadvantages of an actual PC (multiple formats, lots of different ways of dumping, the K-file "fake ATRI image" dumps that you mention (which IMO are very viable .atr versions from quite a few of the titles out there, if you learn how to work with them). The 8 bit just introduces a lot more options, and a lot more headaches along with those options. Really, your whole post kind of illustrates EXACTLY why I am saying that a lof of the arguments *for* the Atari 8 bit are also arguments AGAINST the 8 bit... especially if you're NOT a PC oriented guy and/or you don't have a lot of experience with the 8 bit era of home PC computinig (and, maybe more importantly, specifically with Atari 8 bit PCs). The 5200 products are just more polished and consumer friendly, *even* the stuff the Classics sells (the 5200 128-in-1 USB versus the MyIDE *or* SIO2PC and APE). Maybe I'm exaggerating... It looks like there are 6 copies of Frogger games on my MyIDE, two of which are Frogger 2, 3-Deep. Some of us (and I count myself among these people), really enjoy the search, organization, and learning experience that goes with new platforms, apps, accessories and utilities. Which is why I took the time to write this...

 

 

http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/forum/viewtopic.php?t=491 (also an indication of just how disorganized I am. It takes a very disorganized individual to write up a clear, concise and helpful technical guide...)

 

But not everyone does. There are a lot of people here who really just want to be able to get in and play the games and not have to worry about much else. And for those people, the 8 bit is NOT the default best choice. And that fact means that one should really carefully pick their position when giving guidance, solicited or not, on what the best platform choice is. It isn't an absolute thing where the 8 bit or the 5200 is ALWAYS the better pick. It is going to depend on the individual, their goals, and their priorities. As a matter of fact, the 5200 128-in-1 USB cart is probably the EASIEST cart to get up and running with and to modify after the initial configuration. It is brilliant in that simplicity. The CC2 and the MyIDE interface are much more technical and difficult (although arguably, more powerful and customizable).

 

I'll have to look into that regarding running Carts directly from the MyIDE cart. I don't think this is correct. You can run .ATR images or you can run .XEX executables... but a .ROM cart image is neither. I'm looking at my own document, and it says,

 

The MyIDE Cartridge supports two major forms of configuration.

 

You can set up logical hard drives on your IDE drive up to 16MB in size, with a limit of 8 logical drives.

 

You can also set up the remainder of the space available on the drive as "Image Space" that will hold individual .atr Atari Disk Image files.

 

The MyIDE cart will support both configuration schemes at the same time. That is, you can have a 16mb Hard Drive partition set up and loaded with executable binaries and you can have image space filled with .atr Disk images.

 

So I don't think it is possible. I know that if you look on the #1 image attachment I included in this post, you'll see a file called Batlzone.rom. This is not the XEGS version, it is a rom image of the 8 bit cart, and it doesn't work when I try to load it from this, and clearly, if won't work if I copy it into the image space partition.

 

And again, this points out the frustrations one will run into with the 8 bit PC. You've got the image, it is a working image, but limitations prevent you from using it on the real hardware. With a 5200, you're not going to run into this. It is either a good ROM dump or not... and it either works or it doesn't. Much easier to get your library together and start playing and to have all the titles (from the available library) that you are interested in. Simplicity and limitation versus complexity and virtually unlimited possibilities. That is really the difference, and the important reason why to pick one over the other, if you can't have both.

 

At least, IMHO...

[www.atarimania.com]

Is it that *I* am disorganized, or that it is simply hard to organize this portion of the Atari 8 bit library.

First of all, it really is difficult for a number of reasons... Actually, my assumption was that you were advocating the use of the 5200 in place of the A8 because of these multiple "versions". My argument is that someone interested enough will be able to sort out the crap and try to build a real collection without all the unnecessary files, particularly if you want to compare both systems seriously. Remember this is just my opinion and it probably is biased because of what we're trying to do with the Atarimania database (have original dumps whenever we can).

 

I hate these kind of arguments that attempt to shift blame, personally.

Nah, don't take it too seriously...

 

Also, your arguments about which image files should be used really kind of defeat the purpose of having a multi-cart, and the claimed advantages of having such a large and accessible library available for the 8 bit.

In the very case of the multi-cart, you're right.

 

The 5200 has, by it's very nature, all of the advantages one associates with a console, whereas the 8 bit carries all of the disadvantages of an actual PC (multiple formats, lots of different ways of dumping, the K-file "fake ATRI image" dumps that you mention (which IMO are very viable .atr versions from quite a few of the titles out there, if you learn how to work with them).

Why necessarily advocate the use of cracked (and sometimes crippled) files when you can use original dumps? I'm not saying cracked images aren't useful in some cases but the "multiple formats, lots of different ways of dumping" argument is pointless... The K-file option is absolutely useless nowadays, unless you want to convert a BASIC program to run directly (unfortunately, there's no way to load a BAS file easily).

 

The 8 bit just introduces a lot more options, and a lot more headaches along with those options. Really, your whole post kind of illustrates EXACTLY why I am saying that a lof of the arguments *for* the Atari 8 bit are also arguments AGAINST the 8 bit... especially if you're NOT a PC oriented guy and/or you don't have a lot of experience with the 8 bit era of home PC computinig (and, maybe more importantly, specifically with Atari 8 bit PCs).

Probably. Then again, I think people should stop promoting the use of all these unsorted files

 

I'll have to look into that regarding running Carts directly from the MyIDE cart. I don't think this is correct. You can run .ATR images or you can run .XEX executables... but a .ROM cart image is neither.

 

So I don't think it is possible. I know that if you look on the #1 image attachment I included in this post, you'll see a file called Batlzone.rom. This is not the XEGS version, it is a rom image of the 8 bit cart, and it doesn't work when I try to load it from this, and clearly, if won't work if I copy it into the image space partition.

You're right, not with the MyIDE cartridge. It is possible with the Czech RAMCart though.

 

And again, this points out the frustrations one will run into with the 8 bit PC. You've got the image, it is a working image, but limitations prevent you from using it on the real hardware.

Nope, I don't think so. You may have to try different solutions but 99% of all software titles should work right away.

 

At least, IMHO...

In mine too

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[Paranoid]

First of all, it really is difficult for a number of reasons... Actually, my assumption was that you were advocating the use of the 5200 in place of the A8 because of these multiple "versions". My argument is that someone interested enough will be able to sort out the crap and try to build a real collection without all the unnecessary files, particularly if you want to compare both systems seriously. Remember this is just my opinion and it probably is biased because of what we're trying to do with the Atarimania database (have original dumps whenever we can).

 

Well, Atarimania has been invaluable to me for my 8 bit collection, and *I* have been able to get it fairly well sorted out, with the exception of a few titles (which I'm not prevented from playing in other places/versions, e.g., Battlezone). So I admit it CAN be done. I'm advocating that for the person more interested in playing, the person less interested in managinig a sprawling system, the person more interested in a PnP console type experience with less hassle, that the 5200 may be a better choice. The 5200 does have a certain advantage from this narrow perspective, if the opinions here illustrate one thing, it is that there are a lot of different opinions on what is tolerable and what is not with classic collections.

 

Why necessarily advocate the use of cracked (and sometimes crippled) files when you can use original dumps? I'm not saying cracked images aren't useful in some cases but the "multiple formats, lots of different ways of dumping" argument is pointless... The K-file option is absolutely useless nowadays, unless you want to convert a BASIC program to run directly (unfortunately, there's no way to load a BAS file easily).

 

Well, the K-files, my understanding, is that they are conversions of ROM images (carts) to .adf format, and that often they are not the size of a TRUE disk file (but instead the real size of the total ROM dump). In most cases, this seems to be the truth. So the reason to *want* to use K-files seems obvious to me. I want the cart version of certain titles, but again, I'm using a MyIDE cart, and thus only have support for .xex and .adf files. This allows me to load cart images up and execute them as .adf files on my MyIDE. It is really quite spiffy. Now, where there is a legitimate version that is identical in .adf or .xex format, and easy to find, I would always prefer the "clean/uncracked" version of a title. But in my experience, this isn't always the case. So I'm not advocating the use of K-files, I'm suggesting that they can be a viable alternative when nothing else exists, and that there may be cases where this is true.

 

Nope, I don't think so. You may have to try different solutions but 99% of all software titles should work right away.

 

Again, this depends, I think. I'm not interested in having SIO2PC and a cable and a slave PC, a few different disk drives, a casette recorder, plus maybe an 800xl and an XEGS in order to play all the various 8 bit titles that are out there with a 99% "right away" success rate. Because that is the kind of infrastructure you need to hit the 99% success rate.

 

If, on the other hand, you have an 800xl and a MyIDE multicart, and that is it... you've got to be a little more creative. My 800xl acts more or less like a console with a multicart... and that is by design. I've got too many PCs, too many consoles, and too little real estate to dedicate that much desk space to a retro *PC* with all the trimmings. I know some of you have pretty full fledged 8 bit PC setups, dot matrix printers, modems, actual monitors. That really wasn't my goal with the Atari 8-bit. Mine is hooked up to a TV, a joystick, no peripherals... just the MyIDE cart. And... you claim, "You may have to try different solutions but..." But that IS my point. With a 5200, you're going to run into far less of this "trying different solutions". You have an image, it is designed for the 5200, you've got a multicart, it is designed for the 5200. You put them together, and they work. You don't have to worry about OS/A, OS/B, amount of ram, version of DOS, or all of these other variables that an 8-bit introduces. 4 port bios or 2 port BIOS is pretty much the start and end of it with the 5200.

 

Really, for me, *I* play and prefer the 8 bit more often than not. But, I can see that for a lot of people here, if they were interested in getting into one or the other, the 5200 and a Multicart would be a much more consumer-friendly route to go. Which is really the timeless reason why people often pick a console over a PC, and probably what Sony is counting on that will allow them to sell a PS3 for as much if not more than a modern PC can be picked up for. A PC is, by its very nature, just more complicated than a PC. 30 years ago, or today.

 

Again... IMHO...

[www.atarimania.com]

Well, Atarimania has been invaluable to me for my 8 bit collection, and *I* have been able to get it fairly well sorted out, with the exception of a few titles (which I'm not prevented from playing in other places/versions, e.g., Battlezone). So I admit it CAN be done. I'm advocating that for the person more interested in playing, the person less interested in managinig a sprawling system, the person more interested in a PnP console type experience with less hassle, that the 5200 may be a better choice. The 5200 does have a certain advantage from this narrow perspective, if the opinions here illustrate one thing, it is that there are a lot of different opinions on what is tolerable and what is not with classic collections.

Very true.

 

Well, the K-files, my understanding, is that they are conversions of ROM images (carts) to .adf format, and that often they are not the size of a TRUE disk file (but instead the real size of the total ROM dump). In most cases, this seems to be the truth. So the reason to *want* to use K-files seems obvious to me.

ADF files are Amiga disk images

 

Nope, they're not conversions of ROM images (practically all cartridges which don't use bank-switching have been cracked and exist as executables anyway so using these files would be equally pointless). They're just Atari .exe, .com or .bas programs with a header so they can boot automatically, like commercial Atari disks. The main problem is when you have an original, uncrippled disk with the standard .atr extender and a fake image with that same extender: the only way to tell them apart is the size of the file.

 

So I'm not advocating the use of K-files, I'm suggesting that they can be a viable alternative when nothing else exists, and that there may be cases where this is true.

As I said, it's only "viable" for .bas files because this is the only fast way to load them (but it still sucks because it's just as if they were cracked to me).

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[accousticguitar]

I can see Paranoid's point on this one. I am fairly new to the 8-bit computer, and I have had trouble making images play. Some ATRs work, while others don't. I have not been able to make BAS or Rom images play; I haven't tried any of the other kinds. The main advantage I see is that when the games do play on an 8-bit computer, I like the joysticks better than the 5200 joysticks.

[Paranoid]

ADF files are Amiga disk images

 

I've been playing with so many different emulators, lately... I knew I was going to get those two crossed.

 

Nope, they're not conversions of ROM images (practically all cartridges which don't use bank-switching have been cracked and exist as executables anyway so using these files would be equally pointless). They're just Atari .exe, .com or .bas programs with a header so they can boot automatically, like commercial Atari disks. The main problem is when you have an original, uncrippled disk with the standard .atr extender and a fake image with that same extender: the only way to tell them apart is the size of the file.

 

I'm trying to sort this out. And maybe I *don't* know why I am using K-files, other than that they're just SO damn accessible out there (I believe I got the lions share of my 8 bit collection as a torrent, but I also managed to discover a couple of German sites that had zip archives, and in both cases, they contained a boatload of K-files).

 

But, a good example would be Demon Attack, for me. Atarimania has only a .rom image, which doesn't do me any good on the MyIDE cart. The only other versions I've been able to find are k-files, and, like you said, "cracks". I did just do a search, now knowing more, and found more files than the few that I had. I think when I was doing the initial setup of the MyIDE cart, it was a simple question of, "I've got these archives with tons of games that are one consolidated collection, or I can go digging around the seediest part of the net on ROM sites looking for individual copies of this title or that"... and I decided to just stick with the K-files that I had, once I figured out how to make them work.

 

With that said, they do work... so, it really became a matter of convienience to me. I think that providing a clean, reliable source of verified images is an invaluable asset to the community, but the fact is, there are some titles you just have to dig for, for a variety of reasons (not all of which are because someone is protecting their IP and wants you to PURCHASE a copy of their program). Again, by it's very nature, the 8 bit has a LOT more of these titles than the 5200 (although to be fair, they exist for that library, too).

[simbalion]

This is all over my head folks and I think we may be getting a bit off topic.

[7800]

The A8 Ballblazer has a really cool "Lucasarts" animated intro. The 5200 version does not have this.

[Rybags]

Likely due to cart size of 32K. Ballblaster leaked prerelease is good evidence, is about 31,000 bytes and lacks character set that Ballblazer has as well as missing all the load intro stuff.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

The A8 Ballblazer has a really cool "Lucasarts" animated intro. The 5200 version does not have this.

But the Lucasarts logo is present on Rescue on Fractalus... Unless there is something different on A8 versions I've not seen?

[7800]

But the Lucasarts logo is present on Rescue on Fractalus... Unless there is something different on A8 versions I've not seen?

the A8 Ballblazer has a more intricate Lucasarts logo screen with animations of the Ballblazer car drivers driving around and waving, etc.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by 7800

[kamakazi]

Personally, and I know most here are probably going to get tired of hearing me say this, but the 5200 was my first console. I still have the 5200 I got as a Christmas gift in 1982. The controllers have had issues and I'm down to one now. The other one needs a flex-circuit and new pots. And I have had an A8 (800) which I loved but I never cared for the 2600 joysticks. I did like the fact that the A8's could use existing 2600 controllers and in some cases I have used a Master System or Genesis controller on an A8 with improvements in game play. I, however, prefer the 5200's controllers even with all their faults and issues because the 5200 is an arcade powerhouse I find worth all the frustrations.

 

As for the 7800 it really wasn't a bad console and can be considered a redesigned 5200 to a point. While it didn't use the GTIA the 5200 and A8's were known, and it did use the tired TIA chip for sounds, it was still a remarkable console. The three issues I had with the 7800 were 1) proprietary power port, 2) hand-cramping joysticks, 3) most of the titles were too old school for the time. I can appreciate the 7800 games today but when you consider the 7800 was up against the NES and Sega Master System it lacked original quality games. Even with the late jump into the game if the 7800 had received games more interesting say like Castlevania, Blaster Master or something along those lines it might have received better recognition. For that to have happened, however, Atari would have had to do two things: included the European control pad in all 7800 packages from the get-go, and bugged the hell out of third party developers to make games for the 7800. I understand that Nintendo kept all developers in a contract making it impossible for the likes of Konami or Capcom to make games for any other console. But there were other developers out there that might have taken the chance.

 

If you want to know the real differences between 5200 and A8 games it is simple. The A8 is a computer with gaming abilities. The 5200 is an arcade machine. There. I rest my case. Truthfully, all Atari consoles are good systems in their own rights and ways.

[Lost Dragon]

Please forgive my utter ignorance on the 5200, but i really know nothing on it.Just been clearing out old magazines, saw ' A Love Resurrection:The Forgotten History Of The Video Games Industry' article in old issue of EDGE (Issue 45/May'97) 5200 gets lynched by whoever wrote said article:

 

'This dubious piece of equipment was essentially an A400 home computer with the keyboard sawn off.....stillborn in the USA' and as far as 5200 Space Invaders went ' (it)...introduced a scrolling regiment of aliens and almost totally destroyed the games eerie ambience'

 

Now Edge has had a love/hate realationship with Atari coverage as far as i can recal (Darryl Still even wrote in to correct them on a Jaguar 'news' story back in the day). So are they again being rather bloody harsh on an Atari system?.

 

They did like 5200 Kangaroo mind.......

[Keatah]

Necrothread!

 

Everyone should know that the 5200 was originally intended to be the next console, but it was raped and pillaged to build the 400/800 series. Caught off guard, Atari needed a home computer right away right now.