FB3 Keyboard or No Keyboard?

[+pboland]

I was interested in what people thought of the idea of the FB3 having a keyboard. I personally think it should, but I would like to see what everybody else thinks.

[pps]

IMHO there should be at least the Option to connect a ps2/usb-Keyboard, as the FB3 will be a "new" ATARI 800.

[Atari-Jess]

No keyboard. a keyboard will make it too complex for the average user. The option to plug in a usb keyboard is the way to go because if you make it proprietary then well never get our hands on one.

[jaybird3rd]

Bundling the FB3 with a full keyboard would almost certainly cost too much, but depending on the packed-in games, it may be necessary to add a limited number of keys from the keyboard onto the console itself (as Mammoth Games did with the C64 DTV handheld).

 

In any case, it should definitely have at least a footprint for a PS/2 keyboard port, so that hardware hackers will have the option of adding the port and connecting a keyboard of their own.

[jbanes]

Where's the, "I'll take a keyboard connector if it fits within the budget" option?

[+remowilliams]

I'd think that a bundled keyboard would ruin any price point they're looking at. I *do* however want the option to add a keyboard.

[+pboland]

I'd think that a bundled keyboard would ruin any price point they're looking at. I *do* however want the option to add a keyboard.

I don't know if it would ruin the price point. I see kids laptop computers in the stores all the time that are priced below $35.00. Heck they have screens with them too. Now a screen might ruin the price point. I guess I should have done a little more thinking about the questions. So for now lets say that a yes vote is for a keyboard/ and or keyboard connectivity.

[jbanes]

I don't know if it would ruin the price point. I see kids laptop computers in the stores all the time that are priced below $35.00.

It's a give and take. The "laptops" you see have pretty standardized hardware that's extremely inexpensive. So splurging on the plastic parts and circuitboard space for the keyboard isn't a big deal. In the case of the Flashback units, they're coming equipped with a highly specialized microprocessor (containing a CPU, display chip, I/O handling, etc.) and two custom control devices. There's not a whole lot of margin left there.

 

If Curt added a 30 cent PS2 connector hidden behind perforated plastic, however, I'd be a rather happy chap.

[+pboland]

I don't know if it would ruin the price point. I see kids laptop computers in the stores all the time that are priced below $35.00.

It's a give and take. The "laptops" you see have pretty standardized hardware that's extremely inexpensive. So splurging on the plastic parts and circuitboard space for the keyboard isn't a big deal. In the case of the Flashback units, they're coming equipped with a highly specialized microprocessor (containing a CPU, display chip, I/O handling, etc.) and two custom control devices. There's not a whole lot of margin left there.

 

If Curt added a 30 cent PS2 connector hidden behind perforated plastic, however, I'd be a rather happy chap.

 

I think I to would be happy with the PS2 connector as well. However didn't you write this on the "what do you want the FB3 to be?" topic?

 

On a side note, maybe the FB3 doesn't need the screen, but a built-in keyboard might be pretty cool.

I'm with you on this one. Heck, I think it's a natural progression from the existing PnP systems. Not to mention that it's how we used the real "computers" back in the day.

 

The perfect system to lead the charge is the C64DTV. The hardware is already done. All it needs is for Mammoth to pack it into a keyboard. Voila! Instant computer for kids and enthusiasts.

 

It's too bad that Jeri and Robin haven't been able to find funding to do this.

[jbanes]

I think I to would be happy with the PS2 connector as well. However didn't you write this on the "what do you want the FB3 to be?" topic?

Yep, but at a higher price point. It would also be marketed differently than the Flashback consoles, being more along the lines of a slightly more powerful kids computer.

[supercat]

I was interested in what people thought of the idea of the FB3 having a keyboard. I personally think it should, but I would like to see what everybody else thinks.

 

Two words: STAR RAIDERS.

 

Star Raiders was one of the defining games of the Atari 400/800, but to really play the game properly requires enough keys that one may as well stick on an A400-style (or even TS1000-style) keyboard. An option to wire in a real keyboard as well would be nice, but IMHO some sort of keyboard should be built in.

[mos6507]

There will be problems playing some games without a keyboard. I think it should have a PS/2 port. I think that requires less microcontroller resources than a USB keyboard.

[Flojomojo]

I say keep it simple ... I'm still hoping for the portable device with removable flash storage. The option to add a standard keyboard would be neat if needed, though, just like the optional paddle support in FB2.

[doctorclu]

I say keep it simple ... I'm still hoping for the portable device with removable flash storage. The option to add a standard keyboard would be neat if needed, though, just like the optional paddle support in FB2.

 

Yeh I thought that was the idea... 5200 looking with a USB port to add a keyboard when needed.

[ijor]

Lots of A8 games need the keyboard one way or the other. In many cases it is not strictly required, but it is important (say, the space bar in MULE for pausing the game).

 

I don't see any chance that the FB3 would have a built-in full keyboard. That would probably skyrocket the retail price.

 

I agree that some optional add-on is important. You don't need to put the actual connector, a footprint might be enough. But you do need additional built-in logic to handle it. And not only the interface logic (USB or PS/2), but the required emulation/translation.

[jbanes]

Lots of A8 games need the keyboard one way or the other. In many cases it is not strictly required, but it is important (say, the space bar in MULE for pausing the game).

The C64DTV handled this by using trainers on the games*. If you watch the start of, say, Jumpman Junior, you'll note that the system automatically fills out the values for you. I imagine that similar steps would be taken with the Atari 8-bit games to map their features onto a system with no keyboard. Not everything will port, but quite a bit of stuff will work.

 

* If I'm not mistaken, our very own MacbthPSW did that work. (Or at least part of it.) Perhaps he'll jump in here and share his wisdom with the rest of us.

[+pboland]

I was interested in what people thought of the idea of the FB3 having a keyboard. I personally think it should, but I would like to see what everybody else thinks.

 

Two words: STAR RAIDERS.

 

Star Raiders was one of the defining games of the Atari 400/800, but to really play the game properly requires enough keys that one may as well stick on an A400-style (or even TS1000-style) keyboard. An option to wire in a real keyboard as well would be nice, but IMHO some sort of keyboard should be built in.

A membrane keyboard? I like that idea. I would guess though that the cost would be about the same as a standard keyboard. The only reason I say this is because who makes membrane keyboards (full computer type keyboards not key pads) these days? It might cost more just for that reason.

 

On a side note, I was thinking (that could be bad!), chances are that no keyboard port (or keyboard) of any kind would be included on the FB3. I would guess that solder pads will be on the circuit board and we will have to wire in our own PS2 port if we want a keyboard of any kind. In reality that is the most cost effective way to handle it.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

I'd say keep it optional or allow you to use the 2600 keypad as a keyboard of sorts. That would keep costs down.

[supercat]

I would guess though that the cost would be about the same as a standard keyboard. The only reason I say this is because who makes membrane keyboards (full computer type keyboards not key pads) these days? It might cost more just for that reason.

 

Membrane keypads and carbon-pill squishybutton-pads are both quite cheap to produce; in either case, the cost is primarily a function of surface area. One generally does not see full-sized keypads using such things because they're really annoying to type on. On the other hand, something like a half-size (shrink 30% in each dimension) Atari 400 keypad would be just the ticket for playing Star Raiders.

 

IMHO, Star Raiders is THE GAME for the Atari 400/800. Not that it's the best game, but it's perhaps the most important. To me, an FB3 without Star Raiders would be like an FB2 without Combat. Although the game might be playable on a reduced keypad (does anyone really need separate keys for all the speeds 0-9?) such a reduction would really detract from what the Star Raiders experience is about.

[nathanallan]

I'd think that a bundled keyboard would ruin any price point they're looking at. I *do* however want the option to add a keyboard.

 

Me, too! I'd rather keep the price down and add on later. Like I have to buy another keyboard.

[Havok69]

I say don't include a keyboard, but have a connector for a standard pc one: ps/2 or usb, whichever is cheaper and/or easier for them to interface with.

[Flojomojo]

I say keep it simple ... I'm still hoping for the portable device with removable flash storage. The option to add a standard keyboard would be neat if needed, though, just like the optional paddle support in FB2.

 

Yeh I thought that was the idea... 5200 looking with a USB port to add a keyboard when needed.

I think you're right ... I've confused myself. These are two completely different projects:

 

1. Portable Atari Flashback 2 with USB interface and onboard flash for user ROMs, probably coming out first, announcement expected by end of January 07

2. Flashback 3 with 8-bit computer/Atari5200 games. Onboard flash? Keyboard?

[Gorf]

I was interested in what people thought of the idea of the FB3 having a keyboard. I personally think it should, but I would like to see what everybody else thinks.

 

Two words: STAR RAIDERS.

 

Star Raiders was one of the defining games of the Atari 400/800, but to really play the game properly requires enough keys that one may as well stick on an A400-style (or even TS1000-style) keyboard. An option to wire in a real keyboard as well would be nice, but IMHO some sort of keyboard should be built in.

 

 

Word!

[Gorf]

There will be problems playing some games without a keyboard. I think it should have a PS/2 port. I think that requires less microcontroller resources than a USB keyboard.

 

If Curt is using any kind of FPGA or that, that is not at all a problem for either.

 

I love watching all the speculation.

[Math You]

I'm a big supporter of the keyboard idea, though I think a separate keyboard would make it too expensive for most people. I like the idea of a built in keyboard. If the cursor keys could emulate a joystick then they wouldn't have to include a joystick. The money saved would pay for the keyboard.