Tomb Raider & Swagman for the Jag

[The_Laird]

How many colours can the PS1 display on screen? 65,000

 

How many colours can the Jag display on screen? 16.7 million

 

This is why Rayman looks prettier and Jag colours always look so vivid.

 

 

Rayman box says 65,000 colors. Is there any Jag game in existence actually using 24-bit True color mode?

 

Plenty - Even Dino Dudes uses 24-bit True Colour backgrounds!

[EmOneGarand]

 

Someone could have said the same thing when Sega announced Virtual Fighter for the 32X.. it was done and worked.

 

You are comparing apples with oranges. Compare the hardware specs of Model3 with Saturns and even with little understanding of specs it is obvious that the Saturn was never capable to do a proper conversion of the Arcade game.

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=717

Your forgetting that back then a perfect Arcade port wasn't always possible.. most ports arn't perfect. The point is to utilize what can be done and do it as best as possible. If the Saturn had lasted longer a Virtual Fighter 3 port for the Saturn probly would have happened. It wouldn't have been Arcade perfect but people would have bought it anyways.

[TheGrandPubaa]

If I can ever find some online references to back up my claim, i'll post the links. It's buried somewhere deep in the Assembler forums, so it may take me a bit...But from what i've gathered, VF3 was running on stock Saturn hardware, but was canned in favor of focusing development on the Dreamcast.

 

Here's one that has some interesting tidbits of Shenmue and VF3 for Saturn.

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5287

Edited February 13, 2007 by TheGrandPubaa

[Michael_]

Virtua Fighter 3 was exclusevely designed and programmed for Segas brandnew Arcade hardware "Model 3", and it was designed to make extensive use of this new "monstrous" gfx capabilities. Needlees to say, this hardware was beyond the Saturns 3d capabilities by any means. A conversion would not make much sense, the sacrifice in visual quality would have made this a desaster.

 

Nevertheless they were working on it. Not a legend. It´s well documented somewhere. My guess is they decided the Saturn had had it at that point and just didn´t want to bother. The official Sega Saturn Magazine ran articles about this almost montly during the early months of 1998.

 

Since the Saturn was not able to pull off even a 1:1 version of Virtua Fighter 2, originally running on "Model 2" boards

 

What on earth are you talking about? VF2 on the Saturn is probably one of the best and most accurate arcade conversions ever. If it´s not 1:1 then it´s at least 99,99% identical to its arcade parent.

I don´t know why you feel the need to keep spreading this ludicrous misinformation.

 

By any means, a decent port of VF3 is technically not possible on Saturn and Sega would have been total fools to even try that.

 

I would have said the same thing of Tekken 3 on the Playstation since the arcade version was the first System 12 game, yet that turned out pretty well.

[Orion_]

Rayman box says 65,000 colors. Is there any Jag game in existence actually using 24-bit True color mode?

 

Plenty - Even Dino Dudes uses 24-bit True Colour backgrounds!

that's strange .. I get 16bits background bitmap using PT 0.5 debugger when running dino dude

[+LS650]

I'm fairly sure Atari Karts uses 24-bit colour.

[agradeneu]

If I can ever find some online references to back up my claim, i'll post the links. It's buried somewhere deep in the Assembler forums, so it may take me a bit...But from what i've gathered, VF3 was running on stock Saturn hardware, but was canned in favor of focusing development on the Dreamcast.

 

Here's one that has some interesting tidbits of Shenmue and VF3 for Saturn.

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5287

 

Interesting thread, but its really rather growing on speculation. It is rumored that Virtua Fighter 3 for the Saturn exists, everything else is pure speculation. But even in the wildest dreams of a Saturn fanboy a arcade perfect conversion is not possible, ven the Dreamcast version is not 1:1 and a bit weaker to the Arcade.

Virtua Fighter 3/Shenmue rendering 750k-1000k polygons on Saturn hardware is just a ridiculous figure and pure fantasy. Even Soul Calibur on Dreamcast never reaches that level of geometry. Then it was stated somewhere that Saturn Shenmue was using the Panzer Dragoon Saga engine which seems to be rather realistic.

[agradeneu]

Virtua Fighter 3 was exclusevely designed and programmed for Segas brandnew Arcade hardware "Model 3", and it was designed to make extensive use of this new "monstrous" gfx capabilities. Needlees to say, this hardware was beyond the Saturns 3d capabilities by any means. A conversion would not make much sense, the sacrifice in visual quality would have made this a desaster.

 

Nevertheless they were working on it. Not a legend. It´s well documented somewhere. My guess is they decided the Saturn had had it at that point and just didn´t want to bother. The official Sega Saturn Magazine ran articles about this almost montly during the early months of 1998.

 

Since the Saturn was not able to pull off even a 1:1 version of Virtua Fighter 2, originally running on "Model 2" boards

 

What on earth are you talking about? VF2 on the Saturn is probably one of the best and most accurate arcade conversions ever. If it´s not 1:1 then it´s at least 99,99% identical to its arcade parent.

I don´t know why you feel the need to keep spreading this ludicrous misinformation.

 

By any means, a decent port of VF3 is technically not possible on Saturn and Sega would have been total fools to even try that.

 

I would have said the same thing of Tekken 3 on the Playstation since the arcade version was the first System 12 game, yet that turned out pretty well.

 

Its the best conversion because its the only conversion for consoles? But the PC version was way superior over the Saturn version.

Saturn VF2 is not Arcade perfect because:

-lower resolution

-lower poly count

-background details made simplier

-lower frame rate

 

Tekken 3 for PSX has lower resolution, some missing details but is a respectable port of the Arcade game overall.

System 12 hardware surpasses the PSx in any respect, but the Psx is likely closer to System 12 than the Saturn was to Model 3.

Gameplaywise, a port of VF3 was possible, but gfx would be a lot more simplier than the Arcade game.

[agradeneu]

Rayman box says 65,000 colors. Is there any Jag game in existence actually using 24-bit True color mode?

 

Plenty - Even Dino Dudes uses 24-bit True Colour backgrounds!

that's strange .. I get 16bits background bitmap using PT 0.5 debugger when running dino dude

 

Glad you have corrected that nonsense.

[Michael_]

Its the best conversion because its the only conversion for consoles? But the PC version was way superior over the Saturn version.

 

No.

 

Saturn VF2 is not Arcade perfect because:

-lower resolution

-lower poly count

-background details made simplier

-lower frame rate

 

Have you played Saturn VF2? It uses the Saturn Hi-res mode and is pretty much constant at 60fps. What more would you want? Miniscule graphical compromises were made, but that´s basically it.

[Michael_]

But even in the wildest dreams of a Saturn fanboy a arcade perfect conversion is not possible, ven the Dreamcast version is not 1:1 and a bit weaker to the Arcade.

 

Finally something we can agree on.

That said, nobody, not even Sega, expected a Saturn port of VF3 that would be graphically identical to its arcade parent. In fact, that in itself could be the ultimate reason as to why they decided against it in the end.

Had Sega continued to support the Saturn well into 1999, I´m sure they could´ve come up with a respectable port of VF3 which would technically be in the same area as the Tekken 3 port for the PSX. It would still not look identical to the Arcade version though.

The way I understand it, Sega´s Model 3 is also somewhat more powerful than Namco´s System 12.

[agradeneu]

But even in the wildest dreams of a Saturn fanboy a arcade perfect conversion is not possible, ven the Dreamcast version is not 1:1 and a bit weaker to the Arcade.

 

Finally something we can agree on.

That said, nobody, not even Sega, expected a Saturn port of VF3 that would be graphically identical to its arcade parent. In fact, that in itself could be the ultimate reason as to why they decided against it in the end.

Had Sega continued to support the Saturn well into 1999, I´m sure they could´ve come up with a respectable port of VF3 which would technically be in the same area as the Tekken 3 port for the PSX. It would still not look identical to the Arcade version though.

The way I understand it, Sega´s Model 3 is also somewhat more powerful than Namco´s System 12.

I would have said the same thing of Tekken 3 on the Playstation since the arcade version was the first System 12 game, yet that turned out pretty well.

 

Actually, System 12 is based on the Sony Playstation hardware which explains why the port of Tekken 3 was rather easy.

http://www.system16.com/base.php#1

 

Model 3 is a complete different hardware than Sega Saturn and its day and night in performance.

Edited February 13, 2007 by agradeneu

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Tomb Raider for Jaguar CD is mentioned here in this issue of Gamefan

 

 

[Welshworrier]

That would be using those fake screen shots that were produced for magazine coverage (stated they were fakes by the guy who produced them iirc). There is some information about it over on unseen64 where the guy who has been banned from here and numerous other places, that happens to know you, has also been trying to perpetuate the myth it is real.

 

Are you posting on behalf of him again? A necro bump of a 10 year old thread for something a compadre is currently trying to prove.... I call great big hirsute spheroids.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Welshworrier

[flux]

Just to chime in on the Saturn stuff. I recall reading that the Saturn had a newer version of its development kit available towards the end of the life that was able to make better use of the hardware and make 3d easier for developers, and just be easier in general. But by that point it was too late and no one was really developing anything for it anyhow. It does seem true that there was a lot of untapped power that was hidden by some combination of poor tools and complexity.

 

Edit. Oh wow I didn't notice how old the conversation that I'm replying to is. Oops.

Edited March 1, 2018 by flux

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

That would be using those fake screen shots that were produced for magazine coverage (stated they were fakes by the guy who produced them iirc). There is some information about it over on unseen64 where the guy who has been banned from here and numerous other places, that happens to know you, has also been trying to perpetuate the myth it is real.

Are you posting on behalf of him again? A necro bump of a 10 year old thread for something a compadre is currently trying to prove.... I call great big hirsute spheroids.

 

I could care less. Im just sharing the article dude.

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Actually I do have more to add. Tomb Raider is one of the worst game franchises to ever come out of the 90s. I personally despise those games with their clunky controls and the typical "sex sells" crap that Laura Croft represents. I thank God Tomb Raider never came out on the Jag CD because it would have only added to the shitpile of bad games on the Jag in the 90s.

 

It would have been near impossible to recreate the same product seen on PC and PS1 due to the Jags limited capabilities.

 

But that doesnt mean it was never planned. And this article seems to suggest that it was planned. I was only sharing what I found and I didnt even see a screenshot only read the article and saw that it mentioned TR.

 

again. I hate Tomb Raider

[Zerosquare]

Cool story, bro.

[Bill Loguidice]

Actually I do have more to add. Tomb Raider is one of the worst game franchises to ever come out of the 90s. I personally despise those games with their clunky controls and the typical "sex sells" crap that Laura Croft represents. I thank God Tomb Raider never came out on the Jag CD because it would have only added to the shitpile of bad games on the Jag in the 90s.

 

It would have been near impossible to recreate the same product seen on PC and PS1 due to the Jags limited capabilities.

 

But that doesnt mean it was never planned. And this article seems to suggest that it was planned. I was only sharing what I found and I didnt even see a screenshot only read the article and saw that it mentioned TR.

 

again. I hate Tomb Raider

 

Tomb Raider was undeniably a milestone in 3D gaming (released the same year as another milestone, Super Mario 64), but naturally as one of the first of its kind, it was rather rough around the edges.

 

Anyway, "planned" might be too strong of a word in this. "Announced for" the Jaguar and 3DO is probably better. By the time of Tomb Raider's actual release in late 1996, both of those platforms were long dead (well, at least the Jaguar, the 3DO limped into late 1996 before being discontinued). It's also important to see what the actual release versions were like. The PC (both software and hardware versions), Saturn, and PS1 versions were substantially similar, clearly targeted to polygon-based 3D, something both the Jaguar and 3DO would have struggled with to varying degrees. It would be interesting to see from when development started in 1993 to when they made the commitment to "full" 3D and when exactly they decided that the Jaguar and 3DO were no longer in their plans. Considering how involved and relatively groundbreaking the game was, I suspect that the decision to not bother working on a port for those platforms would have happened some time in 1995.

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Well the first one may have been a breakthrough technically speaking but that doesn't excuse its many sequels for their equally clunky controls. I also feel that Super Mario 64 was way more impressive than Tomb Raider was. But then again these are only MY opinions. I remember getting very frustrated with the controls in TR2 for PS1 for example and I thought the PC version of TR1 used WAY too many keys. It would have been a nightmare if it were ever on the Jag with the Jag pad. But I don't see how they could have done the texturing anyway. Even with the CD as the format there was never anything on the Jag that suggested it could handle a fully 3d environment.

 

As I said its for the better this never came out on Jag. But at some point somewhere they were talking about it

[Lost Dragon]

:-)) Sod it..I will bite as i was the person who invested a lot of time into contacting artists,coders and p.r people from Core Design and had UK PRESS scans put up online..

 

No one has ever doubted UK and afar press were reporting various games from Core Design headed to the then Next Gen systems..

 

You can add the advertising supplement Edge paid Atari to produce and C+VG to the magazine scan kgramr is hawking around now.

 

Titles like Tomb Raider,BC Racers,Shellshock, Swagman etc shown..it's how the industry works, you build anticipation for your upcoming titles.

 

Now where kgramr went wrong, other than using Jeremey Smiths OLD surname, he's been Heath-smith for years...

 

Was by not actually contacting the P R person from Core, who's job it was to give those screens to the various press...

 

I did..:-))

 

Richard Barclay, who in his own words,paraded around these early, mock up shots, to the press, made them aware they were just that,mock ups for forthcoming titles, specific systems as yet undecided, but Core were evaluating things like the Jaguar,32X etc.

 

As Richard stated,IF Jeremey Heath-smith had said Core would of been Publishing Tomb Raider on the Jaguar, Richard would of gone all out,guns blazing to promote that fact,that was his job!!

 

You also have Core's Andrew Smith,talking to AEO,about Soul Star, saying at 1 stage Core did have a few of their titles on a list of conversions for the Jaguar,but some had been cancelled as they proved too difficult to port,but we could expect more Jaguar titles from them.

 

But as we know, Core Design were sold before Soul Star was finished, Team working on it split, so we never saw anything released from Core Design on Jaguar.

 

As for Swagman.. Coder Chris long made clear the game was being designed using the tools they had running on an Amiga for MegaDrive games,before being moved to the PC so enhancements could be made for the Saturn and PS1 versions

 

Jaguar never mentioned.

 

This is living in the real world,taking press coverage as a starting point, tracing the images back to the P R source directly, in this case,Richard, finding other interviews,asking other coders,artists from Core etc.

 

It's called research.

 

What kgramr has done is found 1 magazine article, spammed it, in a vain attempt to suit some bizzare crusade, many months after the findings behind the press scans were made public.

 

I can only assume he and his..associates have such a pitiful grasp on how the press worked, how publishers use the press to build expectations on titles,even before they decide on specific target platforms to bring games out on and the difference between saying yes,a game was annouced, but that doesn't mean it was actually started or intended for said platform and his own, unique view of the world.

 

Nice try though..:-))

[Lost Dragon]

So..that's Freelancer and Tomb Raider down..What's next on the necrobump list for my FB fan group i

wonder?

 

Snowed in here, so i got time..

[Lost Dragon]

I'll just leave this here, source:Eurogamer:

 

There are conflicting reports about the origins of Tomb Raider, but everyone agrees that it was Toby Gard who created the Lara Croft character and came up with the idea for a third-person adventure game in which the player explored tombs.

 

Legend has it that Frances Gard, Toby's younger sister, was the inspiration for Lara Croft. The devil is in the detail - some remember seeing prototypes that included an Indiana Jones-style male character, and that Core's bosses were terrified it would spark a lawsuit. Others insist Gard had envisioned a female character from the very beginning, although at first she was called Laura Cruz. Whatever the truth, Gard was the driving force behind Tomb Raider, even if others played a crucial role in bringing his vision to life.

 

Jeremy Heath-Smith is clear in his mind how Tomb Raider came to be.

 

"Tomb Raider came out of my trip to the States," he says, "where Ken Kutaragi showed me the PlayStation.

 

"I got back on a plane, flew home, and called an off-site meeting of the company."

 

In 1994, Core was a relatively small developer of around 25 people who were all squeezed into a converted Victorian house on the Ashbourne Road in Derby. At the time, the developer focused on making 2D games for the 32X Sega Mega Drive add-on and the Atari Jaguar. The leap to 3D had yet to happen.

 

 

 



During the company-wide meeting, Heath-Smith declared the PlayStation "the future". "This is what we need to work on," he said.

 

Heath-Smith called for ideas for 3D games that would sit well on the PS1, and Toby Gard piped up with his idea for a third-person game in which the player would raid mysterious tombs deep under pyramids. 3D gaming was established on PC at the time with the likes of Doom, but these games were first-person. Toby Gard's game would let the player see the character running about.

 

"Everybody loved the idea of what mysteries can be found under the tombs of a pyramid," Heath-Smith says.

 

Enthused, Heath-Smith gave Gard the greenlight to begin work on Tomb Raider - but only after his work on BC Racers came to an end. Six months later, Tomb Raider development began.

 

Case closed...:-))

Edited March 1, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[+CyranoJ]

I can only assume he and his..associates have such a pitiful grasp on how the press worked, how publishers use the press to build expectations on titles,even before they decide on specific target platforms to bring games out on and the difference between saying yes,a game was annouced, but that doesn't mean it was actually started or intended for said platform and his own, unique view of the world reality, which the wider (read: Not banned from everywhere except their own echo chamber) community understands perfectly.

 

Nice try though..:-))

 

ftfy.

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Lost Dragon. Im kind of confused. Was it PLANNED for the Jag or not? Seems like you are ALSO saying that it was PLANNED. Im SURE there was never a build. But the question I was addressing is that it was planned.