Elite Questions

[AtariJr]

I'm concidering getting an xbox 360 sometime next year, which will be after the 6 or so games come out this winter that i want for the wii, hopefully a price drop, and hopefully after a couple of the games i actually want for the system come out.

 

anywho, i was wondering if the elite, since its newer, had the new chip in it that doesnt want to die with the ring of death. i knew that the new chip was supposed to be coming out, and considering the elite just came out i was wondering if this was the safer purchase of the two (well three, but i dont count the core). if anyone knows more about the elite please share. otherwise, if not should i just get the white one? i just dont want to have to deal with microsoft on the phone again.. and since i keep my systems for many many years, just because it might last past a year doesnt mean it will last 10 years or w/e. and the failure rate is honestly scaring me from a sooner purchase. if the elite doesnt fall in this category id be very interested.

[Hyper_Eye]

The Elite uses the same die as the older models. The die shrinkage will hopefully occur when the premium becomes equivalent to the elite.

[NE146]

anywho, i was wondering if the elite, since its newer, had the new chip in it that doesnt want to die with the ring of death.

 

I don't know about that.. last I heard it had the same design with the x-brackets that would cause the older 360's to fail.

[moycon]

anywho, i was wondering if the elite, since its newer, had the new chip in it that doesnt want to die with the ring of death.

 

I don't know about that.. last I heard it had the same design with the x-brackets that would cause the older 360's to fail.

 

Are 360's still failing like they were when the system was released? Seems like you don't hear about it as much anymore except from a few folks who've had their 360's since last year. If they are still using the exact same design as the launch, why aren't 360 failing as bad as they used to?

[Hyper_Eye]

anywho, i was wondering if the elite, since its newer, had the new chip in it that doesnt want to die with the ring of death.

 

I don't know about that.. last I heard it had the same design with the x-brackets that would cause the older 360's to fail.

 

Are 360's still failing like they were when the system was released? Seems like you don't hear about it as much anymore except from a few folks who've had their 360's since last year. If they are still using the exact same design as the launch, why aren't 360 failing as bad as they used to?

 

The x-braces can be made properly. They still cause failures though. It is definitely the foremost cause of failures in the 360. I believe that they should just ditch the x-braces. Regardless, a die shrinkage would cause less heat to be produced by the CPU and the solder wouldn't warm up as much. That would make the failures caused by the x-braces much less frequent.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Hyper_Eye

[dalton4life]

anywho, i was wondering if the elite, since its newer, had the new chip in it that doesnt want to die with the ring of death.

 

I don't know about that.. last I heard it had the same design with the x-brackets that would cause the older 360's to fail.

 

Are 360's still failing like they were when the system was released? Seems like you don't hear about it as much anymore except from a few folks who've had their 360's since last year. If they are still using the exact same design as the launch, why aren't 360 failing as bad as they used to?

 

No they are not. The people you keep hearing about to be the ones who had one break early on and then got a rebfurbished one sent to then by MS which broke as well and the cycle just continued and on. They really seems like they worked most of the kinks in new consoles by a few months after launch.

[AtariJr]

hmm ok. ive never heard about this x thing, i heard something about a 95 or a 90mn or something chip that was supposed to not break. they said they were putting them in consoles in a year (this was near the 360's beginnign of life) so i figured that the elite was the answer to this, i guess not.. or maybe its already fixed. i hope you all can understand my concern... the only console i bought that had a history of breaking... well, its the ps2 and im on my 3rd slim.. 4th ps2 total, and i really dont want to go through that again, especially if the warrantee passes on after a year. like i said the purchase wouldnt be made on the console till probably next year sometime when a few titles i want appear, but i just wanted all you 360 owners opinion, thanks so far.

[Hyper_Eye]

The x-braces are the clamps MS uses to hold the HSF onto the CPU and GPU. There are two in the system, one for each of those. The problem with them is that their design works by putting pressure on the motherboard. There is a dimple in the middle that presses against the board and there are four outer corners that clamp over posts that are screwed into the HSF. The posts stick through the board and the clamps are on the underside. When all four clamps are placed on the posts the dimple causes those clamps to pull away from the board. The problem is that when the pressure is not equal the board will bend in a downward direction. As the solder on the CPU and GPU (as these chips are connected directly to the board as opposed to socketed) heats up and cools down many times through use (the machine being turned off and on) the solder softens and hardens and then becomes brittle. This wouldn't be a big problem except that the board is being strained by the x-clamps. Eventually these points can break. This is when the red ring of death occurs. The fix is easy but requires you to open the machine. The posts can be unscrewed from the HSF and the x-clamp system can be replaced with simple screws and washers. If the machine is already dead then you can turn it on without the HSF attached to allow the solder to flow without pressure on the board. This will reconnect the solder points. When the HSF's are reattached the system should then power up. This is what most people that try this experience anyway. Of course, if the machine is under warranty, you would just send it back to MS and they will repair or exchange it.

 

As for the 95mn/90mn that you are referring to, this is the die size. When the die is shrunk it will produce less heat. It is very noticeable when this occurs with something like a video card. You will see video cards come out that require a 2-slot space because of the need for heat pipes to keep the GPU cool. Then a new GPU will come out with a smaller die and the new cards will be one slot again. This has not occurred a lot in the video card world but it is something easily looked up if you want to see some examples. This has not occurred in the 360 yet. The design of the elite is pretty much identical to the previous units with exception to the HDMI support.

 

The 360's do not seem to have the failure rate of the PS2. Regardless, MS has a 1-year warranty on all new 360's and you can send it to them free of charge if there is a problem. If your 360 is going to break it is quite likely that it would be in that first year.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Hyper_Eye

[AtariJr]

The x-braces are the clamps MS uses to hold the HSF onto the CPU and GPU. There are two in the system, one for each of those. The problem with them is that their design works by putting pressure on the motherboard. There is a dimple in the middle that presses against the board and there are four outer corners that clamp over posts that are screwed into the HSF. The posts stick through the board and the clamps are on the underside. When all four clamps are placed on the posts the dimple causes those clamps to pull away from the board. The problem is that when the pressure is not equal the board will bend in a downward direction. As the solder on the CPU and GPU (as these chips are connected directly to the board as opposed to socketed) heats up and cools down many times through use (the machine being turned off and on) the solder softens and hardens and then becomes brittle. This wouldn't be a big problem except that the board is being strained by the x-clamps. Eventually these points can break. This is when the red ring of death occurs. The fix is easy but requires you to open the machine. The posts can be unscrewed from the HSF and the x-clamp system can be replaced with simple screws and washers. If the machine is already dead then you can turn it on without the HSF attached to allow the solder to flow without pressure on the board. This will reconnect the solder points. When the HSF's are reattached the system should then power up. This is what most people that try this experience anyway. Of course, if the machine is under warranty, you would just send it back to MS and they will repair or exchange it.

 

As for the 95mn/90mn that you are referring to, this is the die size. When the die is shrunk it will produce less heat. It is very noticeable when this occurs with something like a video card. You will see video cards come out that require a 2-slot space because of the need for heat pipes to keep the GPU cool. Then a new GPU will come out with a smaller die and the new cards will be one slot again. This has not occurred a lot in the video card world but it is something easily looked up if you want to see some examples. This has not occurred in the 360 yet. The design of the elite is pretty much identical to the previous units with exception to the HDMI support.

 

The 360's do not seem to have the failure rate of the PS2. Regardless, MS has a 1-year warranty on all new 360's and you can send it to them free of charge if there is a problem. If your 360 is going to break it is quite likely that it would be in that first year.

 

ok, not really quite sure what a die is, but i see what your talking about... less heat means there is less potential for the solder to break. you say though that if its going to break it woudl most likely be in the first year. i woudl think that the more you use it the more it woudl get brittle. so im more concerned about a few years down the road when, from what i gathered in yoru post, most of the 360's solders woudl be terribly brittle. you did mention replacing the x thingy with regular washers and screws. does this perminately fix the problem or is it just a temperary messure? if the 95mn ever DO come out like they said they woudl, woudl this still be a problem or no? sorry about all the questions, but after the whole ps2 debacle im honestly a bit scared.. especially when it comes to investing more than twice as much money into it. you say the failure rate is less than the ps2's... even though ive heard about more 360s breaking than ps2s, but ill take your word for it. if anything i hope your right i dont want a "soon to be dead" consoles again if i can avoid it.

[moycon]

ok, not really quite sure what a die is, but i see what your talking about... less heat means there is less potential for the solder to break. you say though that if its going to break it woudl most likely be in the first year. i woudl think that the more you use it the more it woudl get brittle. so im more concerned about a few years down the road when, from what i gathered in yoru post, most of the 360's solders woudl be terribly brittle. you did mention replacing the x thingy with regular washers and screws. does this perminately fix the problem or is it just a temperary messure? if the 95mn ever DO come out like they said they woudl, woudl this still be a problem or no? sorry about all the questions, but after the whole ps2 debacle im honestly a bit scared.. especially when it comes to investing more than twice as much money into it. you say the failure rate is less than the ps2's... even though ive heard about more 360s breaking than ps2s, but ill take your word for it. if anything i hope your right i dont want a "soon to be dead" consoles again if i can avoid it.

 

Sitting around worrying about whether a game system (or anything) you have yet to buy, might break is silly. Some folks say Jaguar cars suck and are always in the shop...other folks say they've had a Jaguar for 10 years and never had had issue. It's the same thing with anything you buy. Some folks will return their console to the company who made it or have to buy a new console mulitple time like you and your PS2, others will have zero issues , Like me and my PS2. I have had console break before. I have a Dreamcast that got hit by lightning....I have a GameCube that wont read discs anymore. Am I sorry I bought them...Hell no and I didnt sit around ahead of time dwelling on what would happen to me if they did ever break. For what it's worth, I haven't seen near as many complaints of 360 breaking on other forums these days so something must have changed I'd think. Still, If you are really really worried about your 360 breaking down. Then it's probably worth the $30 a year it costs to extend the warrantee, then you wont have to worry anymore because if it breaks, you can get it fix for nothing. (Well, nothing except $30 a year) and you might save yourself some ulcers in the process.

Edited June 14, 2007 by moycon

[Hyper_Eye]

ok, not really quite sure what a die is, but i see what your talking about... less heat means there is less potential for the solder to break. you say though that if its going to break it woudl most likely be in the first year. i woudl think that the more you use it the more it woudl get brittle. so im more concerned about a few years down the road when, from what i gathered in yoru post, most of the 360's solders woudl be terribly brittle. you did mention replacing the x thingy with regular washers and screws. does this perminately fix the problem or is it just a temperary messure? if the 95mn ever DO come out like they said they woudl, woudl this still be a problem or no? sorry about all the questions, but after the whole ps2 debacle im honestly a bit scared.. especially when it comes to investing more than twice as much money into it. you say the failure rate is less than the ps2's... even though ive heard about more 360s breaking than ps2s, but ill take your word for it. if anything i hope your right i dont want a "soon to be dead" consoles again if i can avoid it.

 

When it comes to a defective system breaking within the first year I suppose it is up to how much you use your system. The thing that makes the warming/cooling solder a problem is the pressure put on the board by the x-braces. If the x-braces are not putting pressure on the board that is going to cause the solder points to break then it wouldn't be any more likely to happen within the first year then it would after 10 years.

 

If the x-braces are indeed the cause of a 360 breaking then replacing them with screws and washers should be a permanent solution. I would not make this modification if the console was working correctly and I definitely would not make it to a console that is under warranty. If the console is out of warranty and not working then this is the likely solution judging from the information I have seen as well as my own experience. Look at this thread on xbox-scene which takes a poll of people who have fixed their 3RLOD successfully by replacing the x-braces:

 

Source Thread

 

According to that thread, out of 326 responses, these are the results:

 

RESULTS SO FAR

 

1. Fixed the 3RLOD, No issues at all now, No freezes, works fine - 308

2. Fixed the 3RLOD, still video freezes occasionally. 2

3. Mixed results, sometimes works with no 3LOD - 1

4. Didn't fix the 3LOD. - 15

 

Only 15 of the people that responded did not see the 3RLOD fixed by the x-braces replacement. Only 3 continued to see problems after fixing the 3RLOD. I think those numbers are pretty telling.

 

Will the die shrinkage completely fix these problems? It could but that is not guaranteed. I do not have any data as to how much the heat will be reduced, how much heat is required to cause the solder break when in combination with faulty x-braces, or what other changes MS may be planning. For all I know they could completely redesign the HSF for the new die.

 

As stated, I wouldn't worry about whether or not the console is going to break. It is true that failures have been reduced from the days of the launch consoles. If you are that worried about the console failing then the extended warranty may be something you should consider.

[tantone56]

I am totally out of the loop when it comes to your guys tech talk, but I guess the big question is= Does the Elite still suffer to the red ring of death that the first string of 360's suffered?

[moycon]

I am totally out of the loop when it comes to your guys tech talk, but I guess the big question is= Does the Elite still suffer to the red ring of death that the first string of 360's suffered?

 

The entire first string of 360s didn't suffer from the red ring of death, only some did. If all the original 360s suffered from the RRoD and none of the Elites did, then your question might be answerable.

Modern videogame consoles sometimes break down, just like modern MP3 players sometimes break down, DVD players sometimes break down... etc... etc... Its a fact.

 

As to the percentages of breakdown for the Elite.. I doubt it's 0% if that is what you're asking, but at the same time, I haven't personally heard of any mass complaits of Elite breakdowns like there were at the 360 launch have you, and if not what would that tell you?? It should stand to reason if it was happening, lots of people would be bitching and/or slamming MS (Some folks would absolutely eat news like that up and giggle like school girls while they spread the news)

[Hyper_Eye]

MS is doing a few things to crack down on the problem. I feel that they still need to replace the x-braces with a design that is less prone to failure when the slightest manufacturing defect is present (which is pretty unavoidable.) They are giving the underside of the board more support as well as supporting the RAM modules by putting sticky pads on them that press against the chassis. They have also added to their GPU HSF design. They have added a heat pipe to the GPU HSF. You can see some info on it here:

 

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=608021

 

[ianoid]

I'm wondering, is the Elite really limited in total number made? I'm such a sucker to be inspired by such things.

[Quadhorn]

Dumb question: did anyone else read this hoping it would be about a new Elite game?