nonner242 Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 May it is then! Yes, started putting the schem into Eaglecad and need to finish, right now I'm focusing on catching up on joystick shipments and making some good progress, once I'm caught back up, I can finish the 1090XL PCB's and also I have some schematics for the 80 column card, cpm card, memory card and a proto/hobbyist card, so a lot could be done. I will look to restart this in May, so remind me then and let's setup up something where a bunch of us could work together to get the box and cards done. Curt Hey curt, Did you ever do the PCB layout for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erazmus Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 May it is then! Yes, started putting the schem into Eaglecad and need to finish, right now I'm focusing on catching up on joystick shipments and making some good progress, once I'm caught back up, I can finish the 1090XL PCB's and also I have some schematics for the 80 column card, cpm card, memory card and a proto/hobbyist card, so a lot could be done. I will look to restart this in May, so remind me then and let's setup up something where a bunch of us could work together to get the box and cards done. Curt Hey curt, Did you ever do the PCB layout for this? Can I resurrect this thread? There's a discussion in another thread about a PBI bus standard. I think the 1090XL would be ideal for this. I'm happy to volunteer in any way I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svenski Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I'd be interested in helping with this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Only slight issue with doing a replica of the 1090 itself is if it relied too much on custom Atari IC hardware, if it was mainly off the shelf (OTS) components then i can't see a problem since i guess you could replicate those in fpga A slightly better idea would be an updated 1090 expander box that allowed you to use standard PCI/AGP slots (since the likes of CF readers/USB connectors as well as gfx cards/modems/Ethernet cards and sound cards could be upgraded easier) What is the limitation with 5 pbi devices though, could you not create something like a bridge-board on the expander box to add another 1090 box (therefore extending the number of pbi devices) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erazmus Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Only slight issue with doing a replica of the 1090 itself is if it relied too much on custom Atari IC hardware, if it was mainly off the shelf (OTS) components then i can't see a problem since i guess you could replicate those in fpga A slightly better idea would be an updated 1090 expander box that allowed you to use standard PCI/AGP slots (since the likes of CF readers/USB connectors as well as gfx cards/modems/Ethernet cards and sound cards could be upgraded easier) What is the limitation with 5 pbi devices though, could you not create something like a bridge-board on the expander box to add another 1090 box (therefore extending the number of pbi devices) I haven't seen the schematics for the 1090, but I doubt there's anything analog in there. There may be custom Atari chips, but they'll be for address decoding, etc. These should be easy to reverse engineer, and can be replaced with a GAL. Standard PCI and AGP will be tough - those are 16/32 bit cards, and all rely heavily on embedded code. Good old fashioned ISA would be a possibility, but still these boards were targetted for a completely different CPU architecture, with IRQ levels, and a much larger memory map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Only slight issue with doing a replica of the 1090 itself is if it relied too much on custom Atari IC hardware, if it was mainly off the shelf (OTS) components then i can't see a problem since i guess you could replicate those in fpga Seeing as how Curt said he has all the schematics (or whatever) and can draw up the board, I'm sure a fellow of his expertise has a technical understanding way beyond such concerns. A slightly better idea would be an updated 1090 expander box that allowed you to use standard PCI/AGP slots (since the likes of CF readers/USB connectors as well as gfx cards/modems/Ethernet cards and sound cards could be upgraded easier) I'll take PCI Express x16 2.0, please. What would be better would be a box that looks like a 1090 with an ass-load of upgrades in it already, then there would be no need to manufacture expensive, limited-demand cards. RAM upgrade, 80-col output, SD-card as hard drive. These things come to mind, but I have the technical understanding of a child, so that's a child's list: Not sure if all those things can co-exist on the PBI. All this Phi2 timing mumbo jumbo talk (by those technical fellows here) is light years beyond my comprehension, but leads me to believe that many things are likely not possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjbramley Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 After all the discussion, did anyone ever go ahead and make a 1090XL clone? Would like one myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Hello erazmus Good old fashioned ISA would be a possibility, but ... Something like this? sincerely Mathy (who hasn't heard from or anything about Roland in years) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 First off, ignore what Carmel said.. as usual, he hasnt the slightest idea what he's actually talking about.. There are no custom ATARI chips in there. Theres a PSU, and some common discreet logic used to buffer the bus and various signals.. Secondly, I second Candle's proposal that we need MORE from inside the ATARI than just the signals available at the PBI/ECI bus, so a straight reproduction of the 1090XL is not the solution. Third, I dont think that everyone wants an "expansion chassis" to physically stick cards into.. But what I would contend that the ATARI as a platform DOES REALLY NEED is an upgrade to the PBI standard that allows devices to be used (be it singularly, or in coexistance with other devices) in a reliable/stable manner without custom-tuning each machine for rediculous timing issues.. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The IDE interface is actually 'good, old ISA', so it can be done. Why? What could you possibly get in ISA that will run on an 8-bit? If you want 80 columns, the MIO had one, or you can make your own easily. It's just a bunch of registers and some memory. It's the software that holds you back... You could set up seven devices on the PBI, each with its own code space and memory/registers and let folks hang hardware on that. Memory upgrades aren't really PBI devices, by the way. Bob Only slight issue with doing a replica of the 1090 itself is if it relied too much on custom Atari IC hardware, if it was mainly off the shelf (OTS) components then i can't see a problem since i guess you could replicate those in fpga A slightly better idea would be an updated 1090 expander box that allowed you to use standard PCI/AGP slots (since the likes of CF readers/USB connectors as well as gfx cards/modems/Ethernet cards and sound cards could be upgraded easier) What is the limitation with 5 pbi devices though, could you not create something like a bridge-board on the expander box to add another 1090 box (therefore extending the number of pbi devices) I haven't seen the schematics for the 1090, but I doubt there's anything analog in there. There may be custom Atari chips, but they'll be for address decoding, etc. These should be easy to reverse engineer, and can be replaced with a GAL. Standard PCI and AGP will be tough - those are 16/32 bit cards, and all rely heavily on embedded code. Good old fashioned ISA would be a possibility, but still these boards were targetted for a completely different CPU architecture, with IRQ levels, and a much larger memory map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovative Leisure Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) I'd purchase a repro, especially if there were a 360K disc controller card available (a la 1450XLD). Edited January 29, 2011 by Innovative Leisure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup8pdct Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 For anyone who is interested, I have taken a photo of the 1090xl top and bottom of the circuit board to show how little it has. www.eftel.net.au/~sup8pdct/1090xl top.jpg www.eftel.net.au/~sup8pdct/1090xl bottom.jpg Please ignore the red wire. I used it to inject 9v ac to see if it worked. I don't have any cards for it. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venom4728a Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I would purchase one as well!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhod Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 For anyone who is interested, I have taken a photo of the 1090xl top and bottom of the circuit board to show how little it has. www.eftel.net.au/~sup8pdct/1090xl top.jpg www.eftel.net.au/~sup8pdct/1090xl bottom.jpg Please ignore the red wire. I used it to inject 9v ac to see if it worked. I don't have any cards for it. James thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Wow. It'd be easy as hell to exactly reproduce that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 First off, ignore what Carmel said.. as usual, he hasnt the slightest idea what he's actually talking about.. There are no custom ATARI chips in there. Theres a PSU, and some common discreet logic used to buffer the bus and various signals.. Secondly, I second Candle's proposal that we need MORE from inside the ATARI than just the signals available at the PBI/ECI bus, so a straight reproduction of the 1090XL is not the solution. Third, I dont think that everyone wants an "expansion chassis" to physically stick cards into.. But what I would contend that the ATARI as a platform DOES REALLY NEED is an upgrade to the PBI standard that allows devices to be used (be it singularly, or in coexistance with other devices) in a reliable/stable manner without custom-tuning each machine for rediculous timing issues.. It almost sounds as if a new Atari 8-bit Computer motherboard (perhaps with ZIF sockets for the original chips) would be warranted at this point. I realize that it would be a lot of work, but designing a new board would accomplish several of the goals you've outlined: it would allow you to implement improvements to the architecture to resolve the timing issues, and it would allow you to integrate the expansion card slots into the motherboard, which would eliminate the need for an external card cage. If the new board was designed to fit into a standard ATX or MicroATX case, it would also resolve the question of where to find a suitable chassis; you could simply use your favorite off-the-shelf PC case. It would also be an opportunity to integrate many of the common upgrades to the original systems that have been developed over the years, such as memory upgrades, video upgrades, extra POKEY chip(s), keyboard and mouse adapters, integrated SIO2PC interfaces, and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 True, but it would not be an ATARI.. it would be a frenkenstein, and it would splinter the base of hardware compatability between the old and new motherboards.. It's very easy to put ZIF sockets on existing atari motherboards. And if you did remake the motherboard, how far to you "improve" it? Should it come with built in dual pokeys? should it come with a SIMM socket for the RAM? if so, what banking scheme should it use and how much should it support? SHould it come with a built in IDE interface? Which design? Should it be able to handle custom banked ROMs like BASIC XE or SDX?? Should it have a built in RTC? And last but not least, at what piint does it cease to become an "ATARI" and just become a totally custom system based partly on ATARI chips? Many people have talked about making replacement motherboards in the past.. I dont think that is "the answer" because there are hundreds of original ATARIs being sold on Ebay every month, and people want a product that supports the original machine rather than replaces it.. Many people have put 130XEs, along with BlackBox, Drives, PC keyboard adapter, etc. etc. into PC cases in the past. SOme have done a real good job of it.. It isnt hard.. But I really don't like it. I prefer the "sprawling desktop" expasnion scheme that ATARI and other machines of the time were designed for.. If we were going to REPRO the 1090XL, I might be in favor of slightly adjusting the board layout to fit a mini/micro ATX footprint, just so people who wanted to could find case solutions easily.. But what I was actually talking about did not involve "card slots" at all.. Just a simple adaptor board that plugs into the PBI or ECI slot and gives you a single expansion connector that a)has all the signals that hardware deisgners WISH the EXI/PBI slot had, and b)has similar logic to the 1090XL in that all the timing critical signals are buffered in relation to PHI2, thus eliminating the timing skew/instability issues that typically plague machines were PBI devices are installed. Whatever you hook up AFTER that (wheter it be a cardslot backplane or a single expansion device with or without a "passthrough" for a second device) is completely up to the hardware designer.. The important thing is to produce a BETTER expasnion standard.. Not necessarily a card-slot/backplane solution.. That said, if it is universally agreed apon that an exact reproduction of the 1090XL would be the best way to go, I'd be all for it. There is something to be said for ACTUAL ATARI STANDARDs.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 But what I was actually talking about did not involve "card slots" at all.. Just a simple adaptor board that plugs into the PBI or ECI slot and gives you a single expansion connector that a)has all the signals that hardware deisgners WISH the EXI/PBI slot had, and b)has similar logic to the 1090XL in that all the timing critical signals are buffered in relation to PHI2, thus eliminating the timing skew/instability issues that typically plague machines were PBI devices are installed. Whatever you hook up AFTER that (wheter it be a cardslot backplane or a single expansion device with or without a "passthrough" for a second device) is completely up to the hardware designer.. The important thing is to produce a BETTER expasnion standard.. Not necessarily a card-slot/backplane solution.. That said, if it is universally agreed apon that an exact reproduction of the 1090XL would be the best way to go, I'd be all for it. There is something to be said for ACTUAL ATARI STANDARDs.. I see, thanks for the clarification. I had envisioned something more elaborate than what you were actually talking about. I also agree about sticking with Atari's original standards and not splintering the hardware base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 True, but it would not be an ATARI.. it would be a frenkenstein, and it would splinter the base of hardware compatability between the old and new motherboards.. How about repros of existing designs with just a ground plane? I know some of the 14x0XL motherboards had a ground plane and bob1200xl was talking how that got rid of a lot of noise. If new motherboards were going to be done, I'd rather have them fit Atari cases. So perhaps those with cheap XE motherboards (that want to delaminate if you look at them while holding a soldering iron) could be replaced with something more solid. But it does get to be a slippery slope. Just writing this I started thinking: 1) Maybe fix the video circuit 2) SIMM memory ... --Kurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 a real serial port? couple extra PIA's for interfacing to the outside world? a slippery slope indeed... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiroProX Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I'm already beating my head against the "new A8 mobo" wall with the Mega XE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldAtarian Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 There's a list of planned (?) cards on Atariki. Somehow I doubt there is much demand for a Corvus nic. It's not for the Corvus Transporter card it's for the hard drive interface and yes, there is a demand for those. I'd buy the first two off the assembly line if someone duplicated those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiroProX Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 First off, ignore what Carmel said.. as usual, he hasnt the slightest idea what he's actually talking about.. There are no custom ATARI chips in there. Theres a PSU, and some common discreet logic used to buffer the bus and various signals.. Secondly, I second Candle's proposal that we need MORE from inside the ATARI than just the signals available at the PBI/ECI bus, so a straight reproduction of the 1090XL is not the solution. Third, I dont think that everyone wants an "expansion chassis" to physically stick cards into.. But what I would contend that the ATARI as a platform DOES REALLY NEED is an upgrade to the PBI standard that allows devices to be used (be it singularly, or in coexistance with other devices) in a reliable/stable manner without custom-tuning each machine for rediculous timing issues.. I'm going to third Candle's proposal. PBI needs an upgrade. Though it might be a case of adopting an Amiga-like approach with a type of video slot, or a mix of PBI 1.0 and PBI 2.0 slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fibrewire Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I would like the second two corvus interfaces off the assembly line, please! For the record, what exactly has to be "tuned" between PBI of different Atari's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A four-layer, 5x7 inch board would be about $25 in quantities of 100. This would probably replace a 1200XL board. A board the size of a 600XL (6x14) would be about $50 each in 100 quantities. Actually, the 600XL board would work pretty well - move all the major chips and hardware to the new board, use SRAM memory, a big GAL for glue logic, new video circuits... lots of spare board space for upgrades. The PBI slot can be used for a CF card. (10 boards would be $82 each) Not totally out of line. Bob True, but it would not be an ATARI.. it would be a frenkenstein, and it would splinter the base of hardware compatability between the old and new motherboards.. How about repros of existing designs with just a ground plane? I know some of the 14x0XL motherboards had a ground plane and bob1200xl was talking how that got rid of a lot of noise. If new motherboards were going to be done, I'd rather have them fit Atari cases. So perhaps those with cheap XE motherboards (that want to delaminate if you look at them while holding a soldering iron) could be replaced with something more solid. But it does get to be a slippery slope. Just writing this I started thinking: 1) Maybe fix the video circuit 2) SIMM memory ... --Kurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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