Heaven/TQA Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 i just discovered that TWH reassembled every single FX to proof that the fx run on 64kram machines... have a look: http://twh.homelinux.org/numen_800xl.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 i just discovered that TWH reassembled every single FX to proof that the fx run on 64kram machines... have a look: http://twh.homelinux.org/numen_800xl.zip Great! I never put in doubt, Numen has really only 64K modules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvas Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 i just discovered that TWH reassembled every single FX to proof that the fx run on 64kram machines... have a look: http://twh.homelinux.org/numen_800xl.zip Should they work on an emlulator? Cos some of them don't work on Atari800WinPlus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 i just discovered that TWH reassembled every single FX to proof that the fx run on 64kram machines... have a look: http://twh.homelinux.org/numen_800xl.zip Should they work on an emlulator? Cos some of them don't work on Atari800WinPlus. All of them work in my installation of v4.0. Perhaps you have NTSC mode on or some other setting that causes issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twh/f2 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 i just discovered that TWH reassembled every single FX to proof that the fx run on 64kram machines... have a look: http://twh.homelinux.org/numen_800xl.zip yes. because that discussion at pouet.net really makes me tired grtx, \twh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I know what those C64 guys want to see, and it is possible to do so. For the music issue, when loading from Disk: It is possible to do 2 voices plus a digitized channel while doing SIO transfer. So, for having a full working presentation that is loaded from disk into a 64K machine, while playing the demo, special soundtracks are needed. And, really, WE DON'T need bad looking demos with the idealistic realtime code. Demos need tricky code that looks better (by framerate) that the work of the computer does. Well... after someone has done this, there is no base for complains from C64 freaks . But, since I know the idealistics of our polish A8 users (well, actually we don't even dare to think about a reliable release from the western guys), we will never have such optimized productions. Perhaps hard word, but i'm really some kind of pissed, that no one takes care of such "simple" things like timed programming on the POKEY.... not even to talk about writing "perfect" demos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjb Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I take it this is a collection of eye-poping demos? Impressive stuff to be sure. Can someone provide a little background? Thanks, tjb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 tjb...interesting that you havent heard of our production... http://numen.scene.pl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjb Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 tjb...interesting that you havent heard of our production... http://numen.scene.pl I don't get out much... tjb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Numen Demo is the Biz...Problem is, nothing's come along since to try and displace it as the numero uno A8 demo C'mon you Euro A8 codehead's start getting your assembler editors/m65's out and let's give numen a run for it's money Additionally i was recently reading some forum on the commode 64 and someone mentioned that there's a programming trick you can do on a c128 and 64 which extends the screen resolution (this on an unmodd'd c128 & 64) upto 600 * 400 Just wondering if the 'better machine' (you know what i mean) can also do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Got link to that C-64 "trick"? Highly doubtful you'd get 600 pixels across on a C-64. Even sprites in the side border would only extend it to about 400. And, you'd need some way to enable interlace to get 400 vertical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Got link to that C-64 "trick"? Highly doubtful you'd get 600 pixels across on a C-64. Even sprites in the side border would only extend it to about 400. And, you'd need some way to enable interlace to get 400 vertical. Have a look at the start of the demo. The chars are "640 x 200" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 can't remember the web link but the forum i think was either cdsb or csdb or try this http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=...amp;firstpost=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) Run it in the emu - the chars are 5 pixels wide. Impressive demo - althought the A8 could do a lot better in the GFX department. Seems to use hscroll to advantage to give better implied resolution on a couple of the stills - similar to HIP/TIP on the A8. Edited June 21, 2007 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) Run it in the emu - the chars are 5 pixels wide. Impressive demo - althought the A8 could do a lot better in the GFX department. That's the problem. "could if when..." Actually, C64 reads from disk while doing the demo. that's why with 64K runs "everything on the C64. Have seen the "Cat's eyes" .... actually by all the hires limits.... It is possible to have the same colour resolution on the A8. Difference on the A8: Some FX only run in small boxes on the C64 .... on the A8 they could be fullscreen. Or, make also small graphics boxes and have real "160x192" with 12 colours .... or hires with 13 colours.... a.s.o... Particular the 2nd Part of the Kefren's demo needs hardsynth routines. ... When handling SIO, it is better not to use DLIs. But with overlayed pm, the FX can be very impressive though... Edited June 21, 2007 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 DLIs during SIO are OK if kept brief. Then there could always be the option to have a custom SIO and do polling rather than IRQs for I/O. Or, POKEY timers can substitute for DLIs - although all that accomplishes is putting them at the same or lower priority (and losing use of the voice, other than for digitized sound). Cats eyes would obviously be sprites. Nice how the initial screen does the wipe - something practically all demos don't bother with. The Amiga version (linked from the C-64 YouTube vid) is impressive although the sound is a bit disappointing due to shitty sample rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Actually, C64 reads from disk while doing the demo. that's why with 64K runs everything on the C64. It's quite troublesome on C64 too. Ok, there's not the "POKEY needed for SIO" limitiation, but you have a bunch of other problems. You have to implement own software protocols and also the effects have to suit for that. If the effect uses all 64k, you simply cannot load anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Well, maybe off topic (since Numen was the topic here), but someone said, that C64 does 640x400 or 640x200. I have already seen gr.8 interlaced pix in 640x200 resolution on A8 with 3 or 4 greys. Think it was the Samar demo (or Samar hires gfx demo or something like that). Works very well on a 64k A8... But with a 128k atari (like 130XE) you can do more. Afaik, in the first half of the 90`s Martin Reitershan presented a 1280x800 screen on a 128k Atari. Alas, I was not present at this (german) Atari fair, so I could only read about it, but I did not see the presentation. That`s why I am not sure, if the graphic used some scrolling (scrolled left, right, up or down to see the full gr.), or if it used heavy interlace (with lots of flickering and swimming) or any other tricks. But the (written) report about that Atari fair declared there was no graphics enhancement or graphics card used to do that graphic presentation... just the use of extra memory (not Ramdisk, but XRAM!) and most probably separate CPU/Antic RAM/XRAM access. Maybe some german Atarians can remember this presentation (it was done at some tutorial, that was held at this atari fair)... but now I am gonna test these 64k numen fx... -Andreas Koch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) I remember some demos on the C64 that showed a 320x400 image or text (in a single screen). The trick was that the screen has to scroll in vertical direction and while scrolling showing the different scanlines were interlacing. The same trick should be easily doable with Atari. And analogically an image with 640x200 image should be viewable (with using horizontal scrolling). Dunno if these two could be combined to create a 640x400 screen. Edited June 21, 2007 by pseudografx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 can't remember the web link but the forum i think was either cdsb or csdb or try this http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=...amp;firstpost=2 Can anyone get this to work - whenever I try to view this I get the loading circle and nothing starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Now that we've heard that the A8 can 'supposedly' replicate the c64/128 programming trick...it is now time for someone or something to outdo THE NUMEN demo PS.. Is HIP/TIP format the same as GTIA bug (are they all somehow related) lastly can someone explain to me something, i seem to remember hearing or reading about the fact that Atari did not (at the time anyway) officially support the GTIA (i.e the extra modes and other capabilities etc)...what was the logic or reasoning behind that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 HIP/TIP relies on the so-called "bug" that causes GR.10 pixels to appear shifted by 1 colour clock. In fact, it's not really a bug - it's just the normal delay when a palette colour is changed. You can realize the same effect by changing the PF2 colour in a DLI on a GR.0 screen - it will not appear on an exact cycle boundary. It might be true that Atari didn't support GTIA so far as games go until the mid/late 1980s, but OS support for GR. 9,10,11 was always present - even in machines which only shipped with CTIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) Now that we've heard that the A8 can 'supposedly' replicate the c64/128 programming trick...it is now time for someone or something to outdo THE NUMEN demo I'd say: Atari Fans should be happy, to have a Numen at least. This demo really shows impressive stuff of what the A8 is capable. To say "outdo NUMEN" means to have coders on the A8 that are better than the polish guys. With some "Numen" back in the 80s, there possibly were enough potential coders for doing so. But today? How much money will you spent to coders for learning all about the A8 (more than using all players for one "sprite" and hardly trying to create a charset...) I bet, millions of $ would be necessary. The huge amount of still active C64 coders is self talking. Edited June 22, 2007 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 22, 2007 Author Share Posted June 22, 2007 the "bug" reference comes from the origin as the demo group HARD thought it is a bug in their plasma routine... 2. The History of HIP Tamas Bene and I had a "EMail"-conversation the last few month and we were talking about older demos and effects and suddenly we have talked about the Visdowm II-Demo of JAC! where JAC had managed to display 16 colors/shades in a resolution of Gr.15, which means 160x200... We talked about the "unity"-demo where Our-5oft switched 3 graficmodes in 1 scanline, gr.8,gr.9 and somehthing similar to gr.15 by altering the prior- register per DLI... what do you think happens when writing #0 in that register at the beginning of a scanline, waiting some time... switching to gr.9 by writing #$40 there and after a little while in the last 1/3 of the scanline back to gr.0 by writing again #0 into it... what does the GTIA produce? not gr.0 (or gr.8...)as normaly... he displays something similar to gr.15!!! He then told me some stories of the coding-sessions of "Joyride" last summer and in the DIL-Plasma-Screen they discovered another "BUG"...but Tamas had written down the FX and had forgot it... till we were taking about GTIA-BUGs... so we talked now about known GTIA-Bugs and the next day Tamas was upset and told me he had discovered a new bug and he had reproduced the DIL-"BUG"... he discovered that some scanlines were shifted by a half (!) gr.9-pixel when the scroller starts and they didnt fixed that BUG in the DIL-Screen... But after reproducing this BUG he discovered that the reason wasnt the scroller... it was the special display-list-routine... ref: http://www.atarimax.com/freenet/freenet_ma...warticle.php?59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 22, 2007 Author Share Posted June 22, 2007 btw. JAC! suddenly appeared back on the scene this summer...first comments by him at pouet.net since for years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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