Posting from Ice-T and lynx

[Urchlay]

Hello, hello, is this thing on?

 

OK, now that I've done this once, I think I'll never do it again

[mimo]

Hello, Hello, London Calling, we are receiving you loud and clear, Over

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what did you do exactly?

Edited July 10, 2007 by mimo

[Urchlay]

what did you do exactly?

 

Ran Ice-T (80 column terminal emulator) on my 800XL... used it to log in to my Linux box (a big honkin' PC) on the serial port, via SIO2PC cable. That gave me a shell (text-only command-line interface), from which I ran lynx (a text-only web browser), went to www.atariage.com, logged in, and posted, all using the Atari keyboard & screen only.

 

It probably goes without saying that this web site is kind of painful to use without a mouse, or being able to see the graphics... but it *IS* usable (was able to post that message).

 

It wasn't exactly "getting the Atari on the Internet" though. The PC that runs Linux did all the networking and browser stuff; the Atari just acted as a dumb terminal. Whatever I typed, went to the Linux box, and whatever the Linux box printed (like the text-only rendering of AtariAge), the Atari displayed.

 

It served its real purpose though: I had just finished doing the supervideo 2.1 upgrade on that 800XL, and wanted to see how Ice-T's 80-column display looked... it looks great!

[puppetmark]

what did you do exactly?

 

Ran Ice-T (80 column terminal emulator) on my 800XL... used it to log in to my Linux box (a big honkin' PC) on the serial port, via SIO2PC cable. That gave me a shell (text-only command-line interface), from which I ran lynx (a text-only web browser), went to www.atariage.com, logged in, and posted, all using the Atari keyboard & screen only.

 

It probably goes without saying that this web site is kind of painful to use without a mouse, or being able to see the graphics... but it *IS* usable (was able to post that message).

 

It wasn't exactly "getting the Atari on the Internet" though. The PC that runs Linux did all the networking and browser stuff; the Atari just acted as a dumb terminal. Whatever I typed, went to the Linux box, and whatever the Linux box printed (like the text-only rendering of AtariAge), the Atari displayed.

 

It served its real purpose though: I had just finished doing the supervideo 2.1 upgrade on that 800XL, and wanted to see how Ice-T's 80-column display looked... it looks great!

 

Very Cool! I often wondered if something like this would work. Not sure how you got the shell to work. did you need any software for the sio2pc cable? I thought an r-verter cable would be the thing to use.

 

Thanks for posting this

[Urchlay]

Very Cool! I often wondered if something like this would work. Not sure how you got the shell to work. did you need any software for the sio2pc cable? I thought an r-verter cable would be the thing to use.

 

Thanks for posting this

 

Actually, the SIO2PC cable is almost the same thing as an R-verter... it works with the R-verter and Bob-verter drivers on the A8... and the SX212 driver, but that only supports 1200 baud.

 

The way I did this is a kludge... Here's what I did:

 

# Load Ice-T on the Atari (I use AtariSIO, could instead use sio2linux, or a real floppy drive, or MyIDE, or...)
# Configure Ice-T for 9600 baud, no fine scrolling, and IBM graphics characters, but do not enter terminal mode yet

# On the Linux box, if you're running AtariSIO or sio2linux, exit from it, then:
sudo rmmod atarisio   # not needed if you don't use AtariSIO, of course
sudo strace -o /dev/null agetty -L ttyS0 9600 vt100   # change ttyS0 if you need to

# If you're using a "smart" SIO2PC (the Atarimax auto-sensing one that supports SIO2PC and 1050-2-PC operation without a jumper):
sudo toggle_rts  # see below for source to this program. You have to run it after the "sudo strace agetty...", in a different xterm or console of course...

# At this point, enter terminal mode in Ice-T and press Return on the Atari. You should be looking at a "login:" prompt. Log in as a non-root user and enjoy!
# I highly recommend running "screen" at this point, to give yourself virtual terminals and keyboard-based copy and paste.

 

The toggle_rts program is needed because my Atarimax SIO2PC uses the RTS line on the serial port to decide whether to run in SIO2PC or 1050-2-PC/Prosystem mode. If you're using a "dumb" SIO2PC that doesn't support 1050-2-PC mode, you don't need this. Code:

 

#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <termios.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <sys/ioctl.h>
#include <linux/serial.h>

int main() {
int fd, status;

fd = open("/dev/ttyS0", O_RDWR);
if(fd < 0) {
	perror("open()");
	return 1;
}

fprintf(stderr, "ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &status);\n");
ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &status);
if(status & TIOCM_RTS) {
	fprintf(stderr, "TIOCM_RTS set\n");
} else {
	fprintf(stderr, "TIOCM_RTS clear\n");
}
status &= ~TIOCM_RTS;
ioctl(fd, TIOCMSET, &status);
fprintf(stderr, "ioctl(fd, TIOCMSET, &status);\n");
return 0;
}

 

Compile with "gcc -o toggle_rts toggle_rts.c" and copy the binary somewhere like /usr/local/bin

 

If I were going to be doing this regularly, I'd want to get the source to "agetty" and patch it so it sets the RTS line itself... and make it smart enough to check for the existence of the atarisio kernel module, so it could automagically remove the module and reload it when done. It might be nice to patch AtariSIO so it has a "serial login" menu option that does all this stuff, too...

 

Ice-T has an option for 19200 baud, but I never got the serial login to work at that speed... at 9600 baud, you still need flow control (in "screen", press C-a f), or you might lose a few characters. I was able to use 3 different IRC clients and the lynx (not links) browser, and edit text files with vim. It may help to "export TERM=vt100" from within screen...

 

Obviously, if you're using the serial port for a login, you can't have Ice-T accessing ATR images over the SIO2PC... but also, I couldn't get it to access real disk drives without spewing the disk data to the login shell (it made a mess, too). The real R-verter might or might not have the same problem (I don't have one). If you *really* want to use serial login and disks at the same time, you could maybe use an 850 *and* an SIO2PC (need 2 serial ports on the Linux box for that), in which case you wouldn't need to "rmmod atarisio" or mess with the toggle_rts stuff.

 

One more wrinkle: if you use AtariSIO, you'll of course have to re-modprobe its kernel module after you log out... before doing so, run "stty -F /dev/ttyS0 clocal", or the modprobe may hang (depends on your particular getty program whether this will be an issue).

[puppetmark]

Very Cool! I often wondered if something like this would work. Not sure how you got the shell to work. did you need any software for the sio2pc cable? I thought an r-verter cable would be the thing to use.

 

Thanks for posting this

 

Actually, the SIO2PC cable is almost the same thing as an R-verter... it works with the R-verter and Bob-verter drivers on the A8... and the SX212 driver, but that only supports 1200 baud.

 

The way I did this is a kludge... Here's what I did:

 

# Load Ice-T on the Atari (I use AtariSIO, could instead use sio2linux, or a real floppy drive, or MyIDE, or...)
# Configure Ice-T for 9600 baud, no fine scrolling, and IBM graphics characters, but do not enter terminal mode yet

# On the Linux box, if you're running AtariSIO or sio2linux, exit from it, then:
sudo rmmod atarisio   # not needed if you don't use AtariSIO, of course
sudo strace -o /dev/null agetty -L ttyS0 9600 vt100   # change ttyS0 if you need to

# If you're using a "smart" SIO2PC (the Atarimax auto-sensing one that supports SIO2PC and 1050-2-PC operation without a jumper):
sudo toggle_rts  # see below for source to this program. You have to run it after the "sudo strace agetty...", in a different xterm or console of course...

# At this point, enter terminal mode in Ice-T and press Return on the Atari. You should be looking at a "login:" prompt. Log in as a non-root user and enjoy!
# I highly recommend running "screen" at this point, to give yourself virtual terminals and keyboard-based copy and paste.

 

The toggle_rts program is needed because my Atarimax SIO2PC uses the RTS line on the serial port to decide whether to run in SIO2PC or 1050-2-PC/Prosystem mode. If you're using a "dumb" SIO2PC that doesn't support 1050-2-PC mode, you don't need this. Code:

 

#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <termios.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <sys/ioctl.h>
#include <linux/serial.h>

int main() {
int fd, status;

fd = open("/dev/ttyS0", O_RDWR);
if(fd < 0) {
	perror("open()");
	return 1;
}

fprintf(stderr, "ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &status);\n");
ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &status);
if(status & TIOCM_RTS) {
	fprintf(stderr, "TIOCM_RTS set\n");
} else {
	fprintf(stderr, "TIOCM_RTS clear\n");
}
status &= ~TIOCM_RTS;
ioctl(fd, TIOCMSET, &status);
fprintf(stderr, "ioctl(fd, TIOCMSET, &status);\n");
return 0;
}

 

Compile with "gcc -o toggle_rts toggle_rts.c" and copy the binary somewhere like /usr/local/bin

 

If I were going to be doing this regularly, I'd want to get the source to "agetty" and patch it so it sets the RTS line itself... and make it smart enough to check for the existence of the atarisio kernel module, so it could automagically remove the module and reload it when done. It might be nice to patch AtariSIO so it has a "serial login" menu option that does all this stuff, too...

 

Ice-T has an option for 19200 baud, but I never got the serial login to work at that speed... at 9600 baud, you still need flow control (in "screen", press C-a f), or you might lose a few characters. I was able to use 3 different IRC clients and the lynx (not links) browser, and edit text files with vim. It may help to "export TERM=vt100" from within screen...

 

Obviously, if you're using the serial port for a login, you can't have Ice-T accessing ATR images over the SIO2PC... but also, I couldn't get it to access real disk drives without spewing the disk data to the login shell (it made a mess, too). The real R-verter might or might not have the same problem (I don't have one). If you *really* want to use serial login and disks at the same time, you could maybe use an 850 *and* an SIO2PC (need 2 serial ports on the Linux box for that), in which case you wouldn't need to "rmmod atarisio" or mess with the toggle_rts stuff.

 

One more wrinkle: if you use AtariSIO, you'll of course have to re-modprobe its kernel module after you log out... before doing so, run "stty -F /dev/ttyS0 clocal", or the modprobe may hang (depends on your particular getty program whether this will be an issue).

 

Thanks for the details. Thats awesome! It is a bit of a kludge but its still cool to be able to have you hands on atari hardware and looking at the net! I am going to give this a try!

[Urchlay]

Thanks for the details. Thats awesome! It is a bit of a kludge but its still cool to be able to have you hands on atari hardware and looking at the net! I am going to give this a try!

 

It would be possible to de-kludgify this with a few days' worth of coding, I think... Ideally, you'd want a way to easily select disk drive emulation or serial login, and remote-control the whole thing from the Atari. It would probably be easier to use sio2linux as a starting point than AtariSIO, but AtariSIO has so many nice features I'd hate to do without

[dinosaur]

Until November 2006,here in Baltimore,Maryland,we had dial-up Internet access through the Enoch Pratt Free Library.

 

You connected directlly with a Unix server,using the Lynx text browser.

 

Using OmniComm (for 80 columns and VT100 emulation),I could connect directly to the Internet,

using an A8 (and 850).

 

I used this setup for years (as a matter of fact,that's how I found AtariAge!)

 

Sadly,the library went to a graphics browser on 11/01/2006.

 

I did not consider this progress!

[Urchlay]

Until November 2006,here in Baltimore,Maryland,we had dial-up Internet access through the Enoch Pratt Free Library.

 

I miss my Ga. Tech dialup accounts... I never was a student there, but had a few friends who never used their accounts and let me log in with them, so I could learn UNIX. Sometime in the past couple years they took the last of the dialup servers offline.

 

Never used the Tech dialup with my Atari 8-bit very much (was using either a 386 or maybe even a 486 at the time).

[dinosaur]

For about six years,it was a HOOT! to connect directly to the Internet with only Atari 8 bit hardware!

 

It would blow people's minds to receive an E-mail on their PC from an Atari 800XL!

 

Sadly,all things change......

[Urchlay]

For about six years,it was a HOOT! to connect directly to the Internet with only Atari 8 bit hardware!

 

It would blow people's minds to receive an E-mail on their PC from an Atari 800XL!

 

Sadly,all things change......

 

Well, one thing that's changed for the better: you can run your own UNIX (well, "UNIX-like" Linux or FreeBSD) server at home... The OS is free, just go download and install it.

 

Probably get better performance too (can run 9600 baud over a direct serial link, could you do that with your modem back in the day?)

[dinosaur]

For about six years,it was a HOOT! to connect directly to the Internet with only Atari 8 bit hardware!

 

It would blow people's minds to receive an E-mail on their PC from an Atari 800XL!

 

Sadly,all things change......

 

Well, one thing that's changed for the better: you can run your own UNIX (well, "UNIX-like" Linux or FreeBSD) server at home... The OS is free, just go download and install it.

 

Probably get better performance too (can run 9600 baud over a direct serial link, could you do that with your modem back in the day?)

 

Yes,but no faster.

[Urchlay]

(can run 9600 baud over a direct serial link, could you do that with your modem back in the day?)

Yes,but no faster.

 

Linux and Ice-T both support 19200 baud, but I never got it working... apparently hardware flow control is needed for that. I was using my SIO2PC cable for the serial connection, which doesn't have the handshake lines needed for HW flow control. I have an 850, which AFAIK can do 19200 with HW flow control (but not with the standard 850 R: handler), but only one serial port on the Linux box. I would have had to load Ice-T with the SIO2PC cable, then swap cables on the PC serial port, then when I got done, swap back... but first I would have had to make an 850-to-PC cable with the hardware handshake lines hooked up. I still might try this, if I can ever get any of my A8 floppy drives to successfully format a disk so I can boot Ice-T from floppy instead of using the SIO2PC. I think the problem isn't the drives, it's the fact that the disks are all 20-25 years old

[dinosaur]

I never got an 850 to go past 9600bps.

 

I tried BobTerm at 19.2k but it didn't work.

[Gregory DG]

Atari 8-bit accessing the internet in any form is a cool thing. Now if there were some graphics to it too!

[Urchlay]

Atari 8-bit accessing the internet in any form is a cool thing. Now if there were some graphics to it too!

 

I'd be willing to settle for 80-column 16-color ANSI text... but even that is probably beyond the A8's capabilities, especially if it has to generate a display like that *and* talk over the serial port at 9600 baud at the same time.

 

I think it'd be possible to alternate between a GR.8 screen with 80 column text (4x8 character cells), and a GR.11 screen (16 hues at the same luminance)... the GR.11 pixels are 4x the width of the GR.8 pixels, so each 4x8 character cell would have a 1x8 block of color pixels that appears in the same place. The overall effect would be flickery and headache-inducing, like FlickerTerm, but some people are less sensitive to flicker than others (it'd drive me insane I think).

 

The other plan I came up with for multi-color 80-column text uses player/missile "underlays". You display text the same way (GR.8, 4x8 cells), but this time the text is displayed every frame. You position the players/missiles and set their sizes so they cover the entire screen (160 color clocks wide; uses all 4 players plus all 4 missiles, in quad-width mode). You flicker the P/M graphics, red one one frame, green the next, and blue the next... red characters would only have their underlying P/M pixels turned on for the first frame, green for the 2nd frame... you can do orange by turning on the red and green colors for the same position, or e.g. purple by turning on red and blue. The colors would flicker, but the text itself would be solid, since it's displayed every frame. I've coded up a stupid little demo that does this with GR.0 (40 column) characters, just to see how bad the flicker would look, and it's not too objectionable. It seems that the human eye isn't as sensitive to chroma-only flicker, or maybe the brain fools itself into seeing a solid color.

 

Unfortunately the quad-width player pixels are as wide as a GR.0 character (or 8 GR.8 pixels), so each pair of characters would always have the same color (since they're 4 GR.8 pixels wide). For a lot of purposes, this might be good enough... actually, doing it in 40 columns would probably be good enough for most purposes. This would allow each character to have its own independent color, and would look OK even on a composite monitor or a TV (the 80-column mode would pretty much require s-video and probably a supervideo 2.1 or clearpic mod, to be usable).

 

Depending on how much RAM and CPU is left over, it might even be possible to use the P/M underlays to simulate underlines (just make the bottom scanline of an underlined character-pair a different set of flickered colors than the rest).

 

One thing I'm not sure of... doing 80 column soft fonts in GR.8 results in pretty slow scrolling. If you're also using a GR.11 screen or P/M underlays for color, you have to scroll the color RAM too. This might chew up too much CPU time and make it impossible to keep up with 9600 baud...

[Mr.Amiga500]

For about six years,it was a HOOT! to connect directly to the Internet with only Atari 8 bit hardware!

 

It would blow people's minds to receive an E-mail on their PC from an Atari 800XL!

 

That would blow my mind. An Atari 800 would be even more impressive because it was made in 1979. Just thinking about using a 1970's computer to access the internet boggles my mind.

 

Wow, now I feel like a wimpy "modern" loser for using a 1987 Amiga 500 for internet for the last 5 years.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Mr.Amiga500

[doctorclu]

I've lynxed in here a couple of times with the Atari 800. Pretty fun.

[Lord Thag]

 

You can DO that!?

 

Heh, and I'm just installing ubuntu on my laptop. I have to do that at least once. Logging onto atariage with a A8 would be ... stupid, silly, and incredibly cool.

[dinosaur]

 

You can DO that!?

 

Heh, and I'm just installing ubuntu on my laptop. I have to do that at least once. Logging onto atariage with a A8 would be ... stupid, silly, and incredibly cool.

 

The first half dozen times I logged on here was with a 130XE,850,Hayes 9600bps modem,and OmniComm!