What Would You Do with Video Board XE?

[Shawn Jefferson]

This is a hobby after all, and if building a video upgrade add on board makes one happy, I say go for it! Not everyone will want one, of course, as this thread shows. I agree that an upgrade like this needs an app so that other people who are not interested in just pimping out their Atari will want to buy one-that's always an issue with new hardware upgrades. The "purists" won't buy one, but who cares?

[sup8pdct]

OK, I know there are S-Video upgrades that improve the picture to the existing Atari Antic/GTIA chipset. This just about does the same as hooking up to an old Commodore 1702 monitor. You can even output to a RGB monitor, but you will still be using the existing Atari 8-bit Graphics at the same resolution. This Video Board XE will add more colors on screen at once at 320x192 or 160x192 resolution and that is important game developers to make their game look good. That is with 256 color sprites and a color mapped background.

 

Pete,

 

what you are saying is wrong. There is NO WAY to operate a RGB monitor with the Atari 8bit hardware. It's only output is TV, Composite or S-Video. RGB is a very different approach to bring the picture on the screen. Just using a monitor which supports S-Video as well as RGB does not make my Atari produce a RGB picture.

 

The various S-Video upgrades you are talking about only improve the existing S-Video signal. But this does not make a RGB upgrade. If you have ever seen the difference between S-Video and RGB then you would know, what I'm talking about. This also does not require new ANTIC/GTIA video modes. I only want my games, demos and applications with a clear screen as I know it the Amiga or Atari ST. With the right adapters you even could double the 15khz RGB to 30 kHz which then would allow to operate even most up-to-date TFT screens.

 

Again, I'm not talking about converting an existing S-Video signal to RGB. The Video Board XE itself produces the RGB signals without any S-Video at all!! The result is perfect crips very sharp picture with absolutely zero artefacting!

 

grtx,

\twh::taos

Hold on there. There has been an RBG output mode done for the 8 bit. it required several wires,a buffer chip and a monintor that could handle TV like scan and refresh rates. I believe bob wooly did one for his 1200XL but i could be wrong. I tried it, it wasn't the best but it did work.

 

James

[Bryan]

what you are saying is wrong. There is NO WAY to operate a RGB monitor with the Atari 8bit hardware. It's only output is TV, Composite or S-Video. RGB is a very different approach to bring the picture on the screen. Just using a monitor which supports S-Video as well as RGB does not make my Atari produce a RGB picture.

Hold on there. There has been an RBG output mode done for the 8 bit. it required several wires,a buffer chip and a monintor that could handle TV like scan and refresh rates. I believe bob wooly did one for his 1200XL but i could be wrong. I tried it, it wasn't the best but it did work.

 

James

The A8 hardware has no inherent support for RGB. GTIA produces Chroma and Luma only. There are a couple ways to hack an RGB output. You could use the Luma pins for R, G and B and get an output with funky colors or you can hook up a composite to RGB circuit, which is what any composite monitor is going to do internally anyway.

[peteym5]

Well if or if not you can rig an Atari to output RGB is not really going to gain you much since the maximum resolution from GTIA is 320 pixels across. Chroma/Luma (or S-Video) output displays Atari 8-bit graphics. RGB is not really going to give you too much more. Even this new Video Board XE will maintain a max of 320 pixels across, and unless it does a higher resolution, RGB is not really necessary.

 

The color clock in the Antic/GTIA is about 3.6 mhz and that cannot be change and therefore the resolution cannot be altered. I had thought of the ideal of compressing the wide screen mode (48 column/384 pixels) into the normal screen area, but is one of those things that cannot be done outside of the chip.

Edited October 25, 2007 by peteym5

[eru]

While I think Electron's work is nice, personally, I'm against it. I mean, I'm fine with it being used for some products, but I wouldn't call a VBXE-using demo an Atari 8-bit demo.

 

Like some said, it's all about the feeling.

Extra memory doesn't result in Atari sounding or looking differently.

Dual Pokey still produces these annoying sounds, just twice the amount

Even increasing the CPU frequency 'kind of' still feels like Atari (although if I play Alternate Reality The Dungeon with 50fps it might feel weird)

Multi-joy? Same thing, still feels like Atari...

 

And VBXE? When I see lots of flying 64x64 256-color sprites, I just KNOW, I just FEEL it's not the same.

 

Actually, some people from the C64 scene already complain that e.g. Atari demos, using 320kb as a "standard", play unfair versus users not having it (and unfair versus C64 demos). On C64 scene, the programmers do really crazy stuff to make sure all the demos run on a plain C64. Perhaps we should try to squeeze more from the machine as it was, instead of going an easy way and extending its capabilities.

[Beetle]

RGB is not really going to give you too much more. Even this new Video Board XE will maintain a max of 320 pixels across, and unless it into higher res, RGB is not really necessary.

 

It gives me the possibility to connect my a8 to screen with RGB only, like Atari SC1224. Also i have a good TV set, which only has RGB or composite input. Composite looks bad when it comes to text (especially 4-bit wide 80 column chars).

[www.atarimania.com]

Actually, some people from the C64 scene already complain that e.g. Atari demos, using 320kb as a "standard", play unfair versus users not having it (and unfair versus C64 demos). On C64 scene, the programmers do really crazy stuff to make sure all the demos run on a plain C64. Perhaps we should try to squeeze more from the machine as it was, instead of going an easy way and extending its capabilities.

Well said.

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[Bryan]

Actually, some people from the C64 scene already complain that e.g. Atari demos, using 320kb as a "standard", play unfair versus users not having it (and unfair versus C64 demos). On C64 scene, the programmers do really crazy stuff to make sure all the demos run on a plain C64. Perhaps we should try to squeeze more from the machine as it was, instead of going an easy way and extending its capabilities.

Well said.

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

Upgrades were more a part of the Atari scene than the 64 scene from the start. I remember my Atari buddies would have all kinds of things soldered in and switches installed on everything, while the 64 guys I knew all had stock systems. I think that's part of the reason coders target these expanded systems.

[peteym5]

While I think Electron's work is nice, personally, I'm against it. I mean, I'm fine with it being used for some products, but I wouldn't call a VBXE-using demo an Atari 8-bit demo.

 

Like some said, it's all about the feeling.

Extra memory doesn't result in Atari sounding or looking differently.

Dual Pokey still produces these annoying sounds, just twice the amount

Even increasing the CPU frequency 'kind of' still feels like Atari (although if I play Alternate Reality The Dungeon with 50fps it might feel weird)

Multi-joy? Same thing, still feels like Atari...

 

And VBXE? When I see lots of flying 64x64 256-color sprites, I just KNOW, I just FEEL it's not the same.

 

Actually, some people from the C64 scene already complain that e.g. Atari demos, using 320kb as a "standard", play unfair versus users not having it (and unfair versus C64 demos). On C64 scene, the programmers do really crazy stuff to make sure all the demos run on a plain C64. Perhaps we should try to squeeze more from the machine as it was, instead of going an easy way and extending its capabilities.

 

This Videoboard XE should be backward compatible with games and software that ran on the old system, and even with games that will someday use the extra sprites, it will still not suddenly look like a modern PC, Playstation, Xbox, or Nintendo Wii game. It probably does not even go as far as looking like a Sega Genesis game. So I can say the games will still look have that retro- Atari 8-bit Game or even Nintendo 8-bit game look to them. The backgrounds will still have to be generated with the Antic chip with an addition of a color map. Programmers will still have to work with limitations.

 

I cannot disagree about a duel pokey upgrade. I have stated before about an ideal of have an additional alternate sound chip, felt the pokey never did a good bass or low pitch sounds all that good. Something like SID or the Nintendo 8-bit sound chip with alternate wave forms. That way you can have a set of voices that can produce some different sounds.

 

The main thing we have see what this new video upgrade can do for us. See how many game developers jump in and get a card and start making software for it. If I get my Pitfall type side scroller going, I may make an alternate version that takes advantage of Videoboard XE.

Edited September 12, 2007 by peteym5

[analmux]

Not that I want to sound negative, but I remember some words of Chrodegang, and I now think he/she was right. When there's a lot of talking about plans to code a game, but nothing really happens, after a while people get bored and start to ignore stuff. I think this causes the 'new-project-tiredness'.

[deathtrappomegranate]

This Videoboard XE should be backward compatible with games and software that ran on the old system, and even with games that will someday use the extra sprites, it will still not suddenly look like a modern PC, Playstation, Xbox, or Nintendo Wii game. It probably does not even go as far as looking like a Sega Genesis game. So I can say the games will still look have that retro- Atari 8-bit Game or even Nintendo 8-bit game look to them. The backgrounds will still have to be generated with the Antic chip with an addition of a color map. Programmers will still have to work with limitations.

Of course, all of this is a matter of opinion.

 

All programmers have to work with limitations.

 

Whether or not this board will allow the hybrid A8 to produce Xbox-like graphics is neither here nor there, IMO. Arguing that it's OK because it isn't really all that good is a pretty feeble position.

 

The central objection to any such system is that it causes the host computer to cease to be an Atari 8-bit computer, and turns it into something else.

 

In any case, if someone wants to develop this kind of device, it's fine by me. I am quite happy to accept that it could be an impressive technical achievement. However, I have no interest whatsoever in it.

 

Not that I want to sound negative, but I remember some words of Chrodegang, and I now think he/she was right. When there's a lot of talking about plans to code a game, but nothing really happens, after a while people get bored and start to ignore stuff. I think this causes the 'new-project-tiredness'.

 

Personally I support the development of new A8 software. That is, software for Atari 8-bit computers, and not 21st century bastardizations thereof.

 

I would buy newly developed A8 software (and I have done so), and I'm always sad to hear of projects being abandoned. I hope that, at some point, the "Super Mario" game will be developed further. In fact, I wish the originators of "Video Board XE" well, too. I have nothing against anyone who wants to develop hardware modifications, I'm just not interested in them.

[analmux]

...

Edited September 17, 2007 by BRK

[mos6507]

I just noticed in the waning days of my active A8 use that people used to brag about their mods more than anything else. We were constantly dicking with their Black Boxes and MIOs, hooking up high density floppies and such. At some point the novelty of hooking up high capacity storage rubs off and you have to ask yourself what you're really doing besides keeping yourself busy modding and upgrading your setup. I'm all for upgrades as long as someone actually writes software to make those upgrades worthwhile.

[peteym5]

Hey BRK, know we shot a few messages back and forth on other threads. Something I am wondering about your upgrade, how much loss do you get on the bus/cpu draw when you have both sets of Antic/GTIA active? Does it take up more from the CPU time to the point to where it not have enough to be useful for games and animation. I understand an Extra antic/GTIA using DMA slows down the computer. I know you gave the 2nd set of chips its own expanded memory. If this modification was available now, I might look into a NTSC version of it.

 

One thing I am getting about articles about the VBXE is that it will run internally at 7+mhz and does not draw from much from the main cpu. However I do agree that with the delays on this hardware and lack of new information will cause people to ignore it. I am going to be checking in every couple of weeks for new information.

[+Philsan]

I think this project is interesting but, like other people's point of view, I prefer standard 64K, max 128K, Ataris.

It's important that new software can be run on a large number of real computers and that everybody can rejoice.

I agree with Atarimania when he says that we should squeeze out the best from the machine as it was.

The hardware must be the same; if you want a more powerful hardware you can use other 8-bit or a 16-bit.

I buy new hardware but only if it improves the use of standard Ataris (e.g. SIO2PC, SIO2SD, SIO2USB).

That said, I appreciate the work of all Atari hardware upgraders.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Philsan

[analmux]

This means that for a scrolling game, you'd need to stuff double as much bytes in the scrollbuffers in the borders of the screen.

 

But, similarly to the VBXE, the 2nd gfx circuit had its own RAM. There was a full 64kbytes of graphics RAM, comparable to the SEGA Genesis/megadrive video RAM. So when in the main RAM the code was stored, in the 2nd RAM a lot of precomputed stuff could be held.

 

Another weak spot was the handling of sprites. The double gfx circuit did not cover 8 full players, just because one of the circuits (the main antic/gtia) generated the chroma signals and the 2nd circuit generated the luma signals. So, 4 players would only be in chroma (of the darkest luma), and the other 4 players would be in luma (of black/grey/white). So, they were only to be used in combination. 1 player of the 1st circuit overlayed by 1 player of the 2nd circuit. This would eventually only give something nice when OR-mixing palettes for 3rd player colour --> 2players from the 1st circuit + 2players from the 2nd circuit: 3*3 colours.

[peteym5]

This means that for a scrolling game, you'd need to stuff double as much bytes in the scrollbuffers in the borders of the screen.

 

But, similarly to the VBXE, the 2nd gfx circuit had its own RAM. There was a full 64kbytes of graphics RAM, comparable to the SEGA Genesis/megadrive video RAM. So when in the main RAM the code was stored, in the 2nd RAM a lot of precomputed stuff could be held.

 

Something I like doing is using Antic mode 4 for scrollers with fine scroll enabled over like antic 15, takes up less memory and easier to move. Now with this you need two display lists with load memory scan enabled on both. I even wrote a routine the figures out where you can put DLIs, which probably wont be necessary with duel vid chips or VBXE. There should be enough time to manipulate 2 display lists inside of the Vertical Blank Interrupt and the Vrtscr and Hozscr pointers, that is if you are just using the redefined characters for a background with just simple animation. Last issue, would be if there is enough time to manipulate all the player/missile graphics for characters in the forground.

 

You certainly have to use machine language to manipulate the graphics and do it all inside of a VBI to keep it all lined up. Not even compiled Turbobasic would be quick enough to move both sets of graphics, unless it is calling machine language routines.

 

Another weak spot was the handling of sprites. The double gfx circuit did not cover 8 full players, just because one of the circuits (the main antic/gtia) generated the chroma signals and the 2nd circuit generated the luma signals. So, 4 players would only be in chroma (of the darkest luma), and the other 4 players would be in luma (of black/grey/white). So, they were only to be used in combination. 1 player of the 1st circuit overlayed by 1 player of the 2nd circuit. This would eventually only give something nice when OR-mixing palettes for 3rd player colour --> 2players from the 1st circuit + 2players from the 2nd circuit: 3*3 colours.

 

I was wondering about the Player Missile graphics end of the duel Antic/GTIA setup and did wonder if you could get 8 players out of it with each having their own color. I would have like to see 8 players or 4 multicolored players without splitting them up with multiplexing or DLIs. However it does bring up a point of having more sprites or player/missile graphics on the screen at once and that is something Electron is trying to achieve with Videoboard XE.

 

 

This does bring up a what if question. What if Atari gave their system more sprites somehow back in the early 80s. Many felt this was a limitation to the 8 bit systems. Some did get around it be multiplexing or DLI routines, but were still limited to 4 on one line at once. I think that is why these upgrades attract attention.

[deathtrappomegranate]

This does bring up a what if question. What if Atari gave their system more sprites somehow back in the early 80s. Many felt this was a limitation to the 8 bit systems. Some did get around it be multiplexing or DLI routines, but were still limited to 4 on one line at once. I think that is why these upgrades attract attention.

Atari didn't provide any more sprites. It was a limitation of their machines.

 

If you want to design some software that is able to make better use of A8 hardware, that's great. If what you want is a machine that has hardware support for more sprites than A8 computers, there are plenty from which you can choose.

 

I think that I've said enough on this.

 

I'm off to install a turbocharger on a Model T Ford.

[MEtalGuy66]

We are all still here waiting for news about Video Board XE from Electron. If you know any new information, please post something here. I know a few game developers are probably ready to jump in and make a game for it. The board is being developed in Poland and documentation about the board is Polish. I am watching for further developments on here. I hope a new discussion here will help developers and end-users to communicate and provide information about this new board.

 

What games or type of games would you like to see done with such a video board? What other applications would you like to see get developed? How much would you be willing to pay for a board? I personally believe if the board is going to be successful, A few applications has to be written for it, games, highcolor jpeg and gif viewers, animation software, graphics editors, etc. This hardware will be good for driving Nintendo/Sega type side-scrollers.

 

For those of you that have not heard anything about this board, It will add a new layer of video on top of Ataris' Antic/GTIA graphics. Generate bitmap sprites in 320x200 resolution in 256 colors. Sprites can be any size and board will have its own 512k of memory. It will create palettes in Truecolor (65535 RGB) . A Color Map is also available that can make each character a different color or a set of colors for a set of pixels in a square. Similar to the Commodore color map, but has a larger custom pallet. The video board does not change the resolution of the Antic generated background, it will still be 160 or 320 pixels wide. GTIA will still be available with the GTIA modes and Player/Missile graphics.

 

I really dont care what games and shit it has.. Just as long as I can watch porn on it..

[peteym5]

I suppose you could, maybe get about a few seconds of video in 256 colors. It would have to be converted into something that the Atari could render quickly, very very simple compression/decompression or strait images.

[peteym5]

Atari didn't provide any more sprites. It was a limitation of their machines.

 

If you want to design some software that is able to make better use of A8 hardware, that's great. If what you want is a machine that has hardware support for more sprites than A8 computers, there are plenty from which you can choose.

 

I think that I've said enough on this.

 

I'm off to install a turbocharger on a Model T Ford.

 

So far this ideal of a video upgrade ontop of 25+ year old technology has been generating some negative opinion and honestly I cannot blame them. I would consider developing some supporting games, if it becomes popular. Then again a few of us are still waiting for news on this upgrade.

 

I myself felt Atari should have done something more with their 8-bit line. Of course we know how out buddy Jack Tremiel hacked up all the 8-bit projects. They were working on a GTIA/Antic combo chip, 80 column capable stuff for the 8-bit system, new sound chip, and a few other upgrades. All of that got slashed because Tremiel wanted to be dedicated to the ST systems and tried to steer away from being a game company.

 

Something else that got me was they had this 7800 technology back in '84, 3 years before Nintendo Entertainment System got release in the USA and other countries. This project got cut and only after the NES came out and became popular, Mr. Tramiel decided to release it. Nintendo also marketed their stuff well with TV commercials and many did not even know there was a 7800, Linx, or Jaguar.

[+remowilliams]

Check out my super upgraded portable Atari 8bit, I started with the Atari 8bit roms and then I added:

 

Pentium M 1.2 GHz CPU, 1GB RAM, 60GB HD, 7.2" TFT LCD, WXGA 3D graphics and stereo sound, Ethernet, Bluetooth, WiFi, USB, Firewire, DVDR/W, SD card reader, LiIon battery, touchpoint and a fingerprint scanner.

 

 

[mos6507]

The reason the A8 didn't get a C=128D or Apple IIGS-style hardware refresh was that Jay Miner's engineering team left. Nobody remaining was qualified to do anything more than design motherboards and peripherals around existing custom chips, hence the various XLs, XEs, 5200, and XEGS. It's also not surprising that most of the 8-bit motherboard designs post the 400/800 have flaws somewhere or another. They could never finish their most ambitious 8-bit project (the 1090XL expansion system).

[peteym5]

Yes, I have recently read about Jay Miner who left Atari and created his own company that eventually created the Amiga. Some programmers left the company back in the early 80's to form Activision. Warner Communications (Time Warner) was pulling the strings at the time that made Atari difficult to proceed, and then Jack Tremiel took over to create the ST System. It is too bad, the Atari 8-bit design was ahead of the Apple II, TI99, TRS80, and the first PCs (graphically). The only comparable Commodore Systems were the C64 or C128. Who knows what would have happened if Atari held onto people that could upgrade the chipset and programmers to take advantage of it. I believe I read somewhere that Jay Miner had additional ideals for the 8-bits, but got frustrated with management and probably why he left.

[peteym5]

Jay Miner first designed the 2600 and the made the Antic/CTIA (later GTIA). Origionally they wanted to make a new game system until Atari seen a home computer market growing from Apple II.

Edited September 14, 2007 by peteym5