(re)build a *NEW* Atari Computer?

[peteym5]

If we were to do the emulation route, why stop at just doing the Atari 8-bit systems, load it up with emulators for the 2600, 5200, and 7800 as well. You probably load it with Linux with a boot menu to select which emulator you want to run, or just run Linux. Even the cheapest and smallest HD could hold all the software and images. Maybe do it as a laptop or small portable machine with ports to plug in peripherals, disk drive etc. Maybe take Atari Maxs' SIO to PC think and connect it internally. Not sure if cartridges are possible, would need a custom PCI board for that. We can even go beyond Atari with emulation, put Commodore, Nintendo, and Sega emulators on it as well, but more companies will give you more issues.

[ijor]

The approximation on the pc's display still will have a different look and feel running on the actual lcd screen of the device through the actual physical display hardware. The approximation of the sound on the PC will still have a different presence when running on the actual hardware through the small tinny embedded speakers.

 

I fully agree with you here, but that's a different debate. One thing is software vs. hardware emulation. Another is emulation on PC vs. emulation on dedicated hardware.

 

A PC would never give the same feel as the real original hardware. This has nothing to do with the fact that you are doing software emulation. It would still be the same if a PC would be fast enough for gate-level simulation at realtime (or if you would run a hardware clone on a PC, for that matter).

 

And it is not only about the PC hardware, it is also about the PC system software. No matter how accurate is the emulation, a standard PC Os is not real-time, and will always interfere with you one way or the other.

 

A modern LCD display would never feel the same than an old CRT TV. That's almost unsolvable. But this limitation will shortly apply to hardware clones as well, because seems that sooner or later CRT displays will not be available anymore. There is nothing you can do about it short of including your own CRT display with the hardware clone.

 

But again, this issue you raise is about dedicated hardware vs. PC. You can perfectly do software emulation on dedicated hardware (it is already done), and if you would want, you could also do hardware clone on a PC.

 

Once again, emulation is an aproximation. You're trying to map the functionality of one piece of hardware to another. You're not reproducing it at gate (i.e. hardware) level. You'd need to go FPGA for that or take the time to recreate an ASIC. And current PC hardware is just barely fast enough to do a slow gate level emulation of PONG

 

You don't need to do gate level reproduction to get 100% accuracy. And you are not doing 100% gate-level reproduction in a hardware clone anyway. All you need is to get the same exact behavior, with whatever means. And for that matter, yes, eventually you would be able to do real-time gate-level simulation on a PC (not that I'd recommend to go this way )

 

All you're doing it trying to map opcodes and certain functionality to modern hardware, its a translator at best, not a 1 to 1 reproduction, you have to go gate level for that.

 

It is a translator of course, and there is nothing wrong on that. A translator can be as accurate as a 1-to-1 reproduction, and it could do it more efficiently. Actually, a hardware clone is also a translator, and not a 1-to-1 reproduction (unless you are actually reproducing the original mask, which you are not).

 

Current generations of emulators are probably not yet there, and I agree that it is far much easier to detect emulation inaccuracies on a hardware clone. This doesn't mean at all, that software emulation can't be as accurate as a hardware clone. Let's not forget that hardware clones are arriving many years after software emulation started. There is an amazing amount of know-how that we learnt that hardware clones are surely taking advantage. Eventually will also be the other way around, emulators would learn from hardware clones.

[Rybags]

What I meant with OS "approximation" is that it can be good enough in the context of actually getting most stuff to run. Of course from a purist point of view, it's yet another bandaid solution.

 

Emulation, IMO is a kludge really - it's only worthwhile if you can get things like SIO and Pokey sound working on a cycle-exact basis.

 

And by that I mean that electrical impulses happening on exact 1.79 MHz boundaries. Of course, to do that you need the emulating system running orders of magnitude faster than the target machine runs at.

[frogstar_robot]

A modern LCD display would never feel the same than an old CRT TV. That's almost unsolvable. But this limitation will shortly apply to hardware clones as well, because seems that sooner or later CRT displays will not be available anymore. There is nothing you can do about it short of including your own CRT display with the hardware clone.

 

It gets even worse when the original display was a vector unit. When playing Asteroids in a darkened arcade on a real cab, your shots look like Great Bloody Balls Of Plasma Fire and the cabinet provided big echoey acoustics when they connected that you could often feel through the controls. In MAME, your shots are dim little dots by default. If you mess about with the parameters, you brighten and fatten things up a bit but you still can't get anywhere near that original vector monitor. An even on my 1280x1024 screen, you can still see jaggies that just aren't supposed to be there. Antialiasing just produces a fuzzy effect that isn't anything like clear sharp bright vector lines.

 

Now if your emulator is driving one of these: http://www.zektor.com/zvg/index.html

then I'll allow that emulation can provide a satisfactory recreation of the old vectors. As for any hypothetical new Atari device, NTSC and PAL monitors will still be commonly accessible for a number of years (unlike vector units!). Just provide composite outputs for those who want an accurate video experience.

[Fuji-Man]

Ahhh, a reoccurring and most tiring theme...

 

A new machine using old technology = LOTS of money and work

 

Building a machine using todays technology = lots of work

 

[climbs on soapbox]

 

I love my 8 bit, but I have no love loss for the SIO bus. PBI, great idea, not implemented well commercially, except for the few that can afford a Black Box or MIO. Volumes of grossly inefficient AtariBlack transformers for peripherals that are not going to last forever. Upgrades for video, network or drives that are vaporware or expensive. Real hardware is still available and relatively cheap, but for how long?

 

The majority of 8 bit software is available in virtual form in one way or another. Emulation in software is getting better.

 

With several boards like the Pandora(~$330 US), BeagleBoard ($150) and possibly others doesn't seem like hardware is the issue. These will become available soon. Imagine a portable that isn't a complete hack with hot glue and loose wires, but a polished stable speedy machine? Any machine you wanted as a portable. Especially an Atari. I see hands going up already.

 

We need to pick the lemons before having lemonade. And we definitely need help picking those lemons.

 

Narrowing the choices is step in the right direction. Picking one sets ideas into action. Its time to compare lemons...

 

Who is with me? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

[/falls off soapbox]

 

ouch...

 

FujiMan

 

Ok everyone. Looks like atarimuseum.com has a good hold of the Atari prototypes (like the 1450XL) that have both the Atari chips and with IBM compatibility, why doesn't someone take that to a manufacturer and see the cost to produce a few thousand of those units? I would surely take one! I still think that an American-built computer, built here in the USA would appeal to lots of folks.

 

There are also lots of you with good ideas. So why has anyone not put it all together and started building Atari's again?

[carmel_andrews]

I'm just surprised that Atari didn't bring any of their 'concept' case designs into commercial reality....according to atarihistory.com (CV's site), Atari were toying with the idea of Tower Config'd PC stylee cases long before the XT/AT stylee pc's stopped being flat tops/base units

 

 

I'm sure it's possible to rip out an Atari mobo, rework the power supply (to that of an old 145/200 watt pc) and stick everything into a modern day tower pc case

 

With regards to the video output, you just rework the existing rf/video output on the atari mobo into an s/vga or FPD compatible video output (so you can see things in HD (High def)

 

FPD (Flat Panel Displays)

Edited July 15, 2008 by carmel_andrews

[machf]

I'm just surprised that Atari didn't bring any of their 'concept' case designs into commercial reality....according to atarihistory.com (CV's site), Atari were toying with the idea of Tower Config'd PC stylee cases long before the XT/AT stylee pc's stopped being flat tops/base units

 

 

I'm sure it's possible to rip out an Atari mobo, rework the power supply (to that of an old 145/200 watt pc) and stick everything into a modern day tower pc case

That's the easy part, you'd probably use an AT power supply (not an ATX one), the hardest part would be fixing the mobo inside the case... but also remember, you'd need an AC 9V supply for each of the disk drives (if you're placing them inside the case too). And a couple adapters and an extender cable for the keyboard, which would probably remain inside the origina A8 casing. Didn't someone already do this long ago? I even remember it had the cartridge slot on a 3.5"FDD bay...

 

With regards to the video output, you just rework the existing rf/video output on the atari mobo into an s/vga or FPD compatible video output (so you can see things in HD (High def)

 

FPD (Flat Panel Displays)

That's NOT easy. The default A8 video outputs are composite video, S-video and RF; VGA uses component (RGB) video instead. Maybe you could buy one of those commercial converter boxes and stick it inside the case... I'd be happy with having standard output connectors for the regular A8 video signals.

[MEtalGuy66]

That's the easy part, you'd probably use an AT power supply (not an ATX one), the hardest part would be fixing the mobo inside the case... but also remember, you'd need an AC 9V supply for each of the disk drives (if you're placing them inside the case too). And a couple adapters and an extender cable for the keyboard, which would probably remain inside the origina A8 casing. Didn't someone already do this long ago? I even remember it had the cartridge slot on a 3.5"FDD bay...

 

 

Naah. Thats easy. You dont need 9vac... The 9vac is rectified/regulated inside the atari drive to 12vdc and 5vdc.. So what you do (for a 1050) is just hook the red wire from the AT power supply to the output of the 5v reguator and the yellow wire from the AT power supply to the output of the 12v regulator (both located on the 1050 logic board).. Then hook your ground wire, and you're done..

 

If you are using an XF551, just hook one of the existing drive-power connectors from the AT power supply to the drive mech, and run +5v and ground back to the logic board.

 

 

You probably want a FULL AT TOWER case to house the computer motherboard, the disk drive logic board, and whatever hardisk controller (if any) you are using. Then just mount the floppy mechs and hardisks in the AT drive bays..

 

But the best thing of all to do would be to use a CSS BLACK BOX (with a CSS FLOPPY BOARD) and just use standard PC floppy mechs to begin with. Then you dont have to worry about extra power wires or disk drive logic boards at all.. And youve also taken care of your hardisk controller requirements, external printer port, and serial port, at the same time...

[+Allan]

Could one of you guys do a write-up on how to get a 8-bit and a 1050 drive hooked up to a PC power supply for us not so electronic geniuses? I can solder pretty good and do mods on computers but I need exact directions like 'The red wire needs to be soldered to the left end of R12', etc. I always wanted to mount a XEGS in a tower with a couple of 1050's and a modem in it but I could never figure out what to do about the power supplies.

 

From what you guys are saying it doesn't sound that hard. Probably the hardest thing is getting everything in there and getting it physically stable in the tower. I think you might want a seperate switch for the the computer so the computer doesn't start before the 1050's start.

 

Allan

[MEtalGuy66]

Could one of you guys do a write-up on how to get a 8-bit and a 1050 drive hooked up to a PC power supply for us not so electronic geniuses? I can solder pretty good and do mods on computers but I need exact directions like 'The red wire needs to be soldered to the left end of R12', etc. I always wanted to mount a XEGS in a tower with a couple of 1050's and a modem in it but I could never figure out what to do about the power supplies.

 

From what you guys are saying it doesn't sound that hard. Probably the hardest thing is getting everything in there and getting it physically stable in the tower. I think you might want a seperate switch for the the computer so the computer doesn't start before the 1050's start.

 

Allan

 

Actually, it doesnt matter.. I used to turn my 800XL/dual 1050 setup on from a single switch on a power strip for years.. Never had a problem, and I dont remember the drives ever failing to boot that way..

 

As I said above, you simply solder the red wire (from the PC power supply) to the output of the 5v regulator.. And the yellow wire to the output of the 12v regulator.. You can even remove the regulators (and all the rest of the power supply components on the 1050 mainboard) for that matter, if you want to make the board easier to fit.. Those huge electrolytic caps are bulky as hell.. As far as I recall, the 1050 uses standard 7805 and 7812 positive regulators. (The little black things with 3 legs, bolted to the heatsink plate).

 

Heres how they are hooked:

 

 

The output of those 2 regulators supplies all the functional circuits on the 1050 board, including the logic, stepper motor, and spindle motor drive circuits.. Ground is common to everything..

 

If you cant figure it out from all this, you've got no business messing with it..

[+Allan]

The output of those 2 regulators supplies all the functional circuits on the 1050 board, including the logic, stepper motor, and spindle motor drive circuits.. Ground is common to everything..

 

If you cant figure it out from all this, you've got no business messing with it..

 

Thanks Metalguy,

 

That looks pretty easy.

 

What about the 130XE/800XL?

 

Here's the pinout.

 

Power Adapter Plug (all but 400,800,1200XL,1400XL,1450XLD):

  7   6
3	   1
5	 4
2

1. +5V

2. Shield

3. Ground

4. +5V

5. Ground

6. +5V

7. Ground

 

I'm assuming you use another red wire from the PC power supply, Yes? Does it matter what +5V pin you use from the Atari?

 

Allan

Edited July 16, 2008 by Allan

[carmel_andrews]

Seeming as though this subject is dealing with 'Rebuilding' an A8 computer...I think that going down the 'Black box' route would be very limiting to future expansion

 

What i was thinking was, since the 800 was designed to be 'plug and play' possible (i.e. the proceesor, memory, o/s as well as sound/gfx chips were on separate cards and Atari were 'toying' with the possibility of using Tower config'd cases as part of it's PC design

 

You just have a standard Atari mobo (say an xl/e version of the 800's mobo) inside the Tower case (with the power supply reworking already done, like in a modern pc, you'd have a standard slot for the proccy, standard slots for the memory (making it easier to upgrade both the mem. and the proccy) also 2 expansion slots 1 for graphics (based on either pci-e or AGP) and a standard Expansion slot for a sound card (or can have onboard sound (like modern pc bopards do) and 2 addit. expansion slots (PCI based) for either a tv/mpeg/dvd decoder (like wintv) and a scsi or combo SAta/IDE and scsi card

 

You wouldn't need to cannibalise/bastarsdise a 1050 or '551 all you do is use a standard pc drive mech (5.25/ or 3.5) and o/s extensions would allow the drives to behave like standard Atari 1050 or '551 drives as well as being capable for reading PC, Amiga or ST formats (as well as other custom or exotic formats) as there would be a built in equiv. to happy/super Arch 2 etc

 

As well as being able to support large capacity hd's as well as removable media like Jazz/Zip drives and removable storage media like CD/DVD and Blu Ray writer drives

 

The reason why this approach would be easier is that not everyone has or wants a black box, plus the fact that you'd have to add bits to it (the black box) to getting it to doing anything usefull (ie the floppy board etc) as well as waiting ages for someone to write drivers for the new things.....The 1090 seemed a viable option so far as 'Atari h/w expansion' was concerned, unfortunately a change in management at Atari shelved that possibility....However, there was the problem with the fact that it would have been the 2nd only product to officially support the PBI port (not that anyone was in a mad rush to support PBI that is)

[Fletch]

Am I reading this correctly, you expect a rebuilt Atari 8-bit to support cards for decoding mpg and DVDs? And you would also like to burn Blue Ray Disks?

 

I'll be honest Carmel, I'm beginning to see why you rub MetalGuy the wrong way.

 

Fletch

 

 

Seeming as though this subject is dealing with 'Rebuilding' an A8 computer...I think that going down the 'Black box' route would be very limiting to future expansion

 

What i was thinking was, since the 800 was designed to be 'plug and play' possible (i.e. the proceesor, memory, o/s as well as sound/gfx chips were on separate cards and Atari were 'toying' with the possibility of using Tower config'd cases as part of it's PC design

 

You just have a standard Atari mobo (say an xl/e version of the 800's mobo) inside the Tower case (with the power supply reworking already done, like in a modern pc, you'd have a standard slot for the proccy, standard slots for the memory (making it easier to upgrade both the mem. and the proccy) also 2 expansion slots 1 for graphics (based on either pci-e or AGP) and a standard Expansion slot for a sound card (or can have onboard sound (like modern pc bopards do) and 2 addit. expansion slots (PCI based) for either a tv/mpeg/dvd decoder (like wintv) and a scsi or combo SAta/IDE and scsi card

 

You wouldn't need to cannibalise/bastarsdise a 1050 or '551 all you do is use a standard pc drive mech (5.25/ or 3.5) and o/s extensions would allow the drives to behave like standard Atari 1050 or '551 drives as well as being capable for reading PC, Amiga or ST formats (as well as other custom or exotic formats) as there would be a built in equiv. to happy/super Arch 2 etc

 

As well as being able to support large capacity hd's as well as removable media like Jazz/Zip drives and removable storage media like CD/DVD and Blu Ray writer drives

 

The reason why this approach would be easier is that not everyone has or wants a black box, plus the fact that you'd have to add bits to it (the black box) to getting it to doing anything usefull (ie the floppy board etc) as well as waiting ages for someone to write drivers for the new things.....The 1090 seemed a viable option so far as 'Atari h/w expansion' was concerned, unfortunately a change in management at Atari shelved that possibility....However, there was the problem with the fact that it would have been the 2nd only product to officially support the PBI port (not that anyone was in a mad rush to support PBI that is)

[MEtalGuy66]

I think Carmel should take all that imagination and channel it constructively.. I think he'd be a hell of a science-fiction writer.

 

Maybe he's actually from another planet... A society far more technologically advanced than ours.. Maybe that's where he gets these ideas...

 

I guess sometimes Im a little too hard on Carmel.. I expect him to stay within the confines of what is actually possible, based on a working understanding of real technology. I guess theres nothing wrong with his suggestions. As long as he doesn't get too disapointed when people don't take them seriously...

[+remowilliams]

I guess sometimes Im a little too hard on Carmel..

Not really. The constant blissful ignorance of every previous post in every thread, the endless non sequiturs from way out of left field, the seeming disconnect with reality, and the all too often posting of completely inaccurate information as fact becomes tiresome. Not to mention detrimental to an aging community where experts and accurate information are dwindling over time.

 

Science-fiction writer might be a good path.

[peteym5]

I think we should leave burning laser media and playing video to the PCs. Atari computers were never meant to do those things. I have looked at several design ideals here. Looks like people favor the authentic Atari computer chip set. A few may want a more compact design than a full tower. Maybe produce Beatles Atari 8-bit lap top or something. I have said it a few times that there is a lot of new Atari hardware floating around in warehouses that would be a cost effective solution over other designs. Atari computers are not that scarce to where someone will have to spend a load of money to get one. Big question is how many people will jump in and buy one of these things? What can you do to make it more worthwhile for people to buy these things?

[Math You]

The only way that this is ever going to become a reality is if it can be made into a commercially successful product. This means a games console or handheld games machine, an educational computer for kids or possibly an MP3 player with the added bonus of Atari 8bit compatability.

 

The real issue is the legality of including Atari software. A console or handheld would need to include software licensed from Atari. An educational computer would also need built in Atari software, or at least have some new software written for it.

 

Interestingly, an MP3 player wouldn't need any Atari software as it would be sold on the pretence of playing music. It would then be down to the user to download software from the internet. An MP3 player would probably outsell a games console anyway.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Math You

[RedBeard]

The only way that this is ever going to become a reality is if it can be made into a commercially successful product. This means a games console or handheld games machine, an educational computer for kids or possibly an MP3 player with the added bonus of Atari 8bit compatability.

 

This already exists: an IPAQ running "Pocket Atari" 800 emulator. All of those things, plus datebook/scheduling and e-mail synch. and so on. Pocket Atari works pretty well, too. The screen is slightly squished & small and typing on it is SLOW (hunt and peck one key at a time with the stylus), but overall it is very fun... wonderful for those slow moments at work, I must say. (I finally finished Zork, for example.)

 

><>RedBeard

 

 

/* As far as the 'new' machine goes, I'm sorry, but I just don't see people buying a full size tower case for an Atari 8 bit. (I could be wrong here, but: ) I'd bet that a laptop machine hacked from actual Atari hardware would outsell that other machine 3 to 1. */

[machf]

What about the 130XE/800XL?

 

Here's the pinout.

 

Power Adapter Plug (all but 400,800,1200XL,1400XL,1450XLD):

  7   6
3	   1
5	 4
2

1. +5V

2. Shield

3. Ground

4. +5V

5. Ground

6. +5V

7. Ground

 

I'm assuming you use another red wire from the PC power supply, Yes? Does it matter what +5V pin you use from the Atari?

 

Allan

A long time ago, I made this (very rough) schematic of the custom power supply the 800XL of my cousin's children used. All +5V pins were connected together, as well as all the GND pins. And it worked fine (still works fine, I got it from them several years ago - being an early model, it has socketed ICs, ideal for modding). So, you could just do the same.

[MEtalGuy66]

A long time ago, I made this (very rough) schematic of the custom power supply the 800XL of my cousin's children used. All +5V pins were connected together, as well as all the GND pins. And it worked fine (still works fine, I got it from them several years ago - being an early model, it has socketed ICs, ideal for modding). So, you could just do the same.

 

This one will work alot better:

 

1) It uses full-wave rectification, so you can use the transformer from a standard 1050 "PSU-BRICK" and you wont get any "hum" in the 5VDC line.

 

In fact, you could build it to simply plug "in-line" with your existing 1050 power input wire, and "split-off" 5VDC for the computer. The 1050 PSU transformer has plenty of current capacity to run both.

 

2) It also has the power indicator on the OUTPUT of the power supply so that it actually indicates if the PSU is working.. And it also uses an LED, to eliminate the possibility of a burned-out bulb..

 

The way you had it, the lamp would only tell you that there was AC power coming in. The transformer, diodes, or regulator could be fried, and that light would still come on.

 

 

 

 

 

This is fine for eliminating your computer's "POWER BRICK"...

 

However, lets remember that if your going to build everything intot a tower case, a PC AT power supply is THE ONLY WAY TO GO..

PC power supplies generate a wide range of DC outputs, including 5v and 12v, and have MUCH BETTER noise filtering and plenty of current capacity as well. And as we discussed above, atari disk drives really run on 5VDC and 12vDC. Theres no reason to require 9VAC if everything is going to be custom wired inside a computer case..

Edited July 17, 2008 by MEtalGuy66

[Retro Rogue]

I fully agree with you here, but that's a different debate. One thing is software vs. hardware emulation. Another is emulation on PC vs. emulation on dedicated hardware.

 

A PC would never give the same feel as the real original hardware. This has nothing to do with the fact that you are doing software emulation. It would still be the same if a PC would be fast enough for gate-level simulation at realtime (or if you would run a hardware clone on a PC, for that matter).

 

But again, this issue you raise is about dedicated hardware vs. PC. You can perfectly do software emulation on dedicated hardware (it is already done), and if you would want, you could also do hardware clone on a PC.

 

No, its not done. What you have is "almost exact" or "almost as good as", even on dedicated hardware. Maybe being in the graphic arts and a musician, I'm more kin to notice things than others that are not.

 

You don't need to do gate level reproduction to get 100% accuracy.

 

If you're not, its simulating - i.e. trying to reproduce a behavior. That's not 100% accuracy, what you're talking about is accurate behavior. An emulator can have 100% the same expected behavior, but not 100% accurately reproduce - i.e. I have yet to hear any software that has the same depth as an actual POKEY. Or a SID chip - even though all the SID emulators are reproducing all the expected behavior (minus the ability to duplicate the analog section).

 

It is a translator of course, and there is nothing wrong on that. A translator can be as accurate as a 1-to-1 reproduction, and it could do it more efficiently. Actually, a hardware clone is also a translator, and not a 1-to-1 reproduction (unless you are actually reproducing the original mask, which you are not).

 

That's not entirely true, you can start with the original mask and chip designs and go from there. In fact some single chip designs take the original chips and lay them out on a single chip. I.E. you have some of the final generation 2600 JR.'s that have all-in-one chips in them. Or you have the FB2 chip.

 

Regardless, I'm more interested in seeing something along the lines of what Briel has done with his Apple I and Kim reproductions. Real hardware, with modern upgrades where possible, without deviating from the design (I.E. just using modern hardware and throwing an emulator on there).

Edited July 17, 2008 by wgungfu

[frogstar_robot]

That's not entirely true, you can start with the original mask and chip designs and go from there. In fact some single chip designs take the original chips and lay them out on a single chip. I.E. you have some of the final generation 2600 JR.'s that have all-in-one chips in them. Or you have the FB2 chip.

 

Regardless, I'm more interested in seeing something along the lines of what Briel has done with his Apple I and Kim reproductions. Real hardware, with modern upgrades where possible, without deviating from the design (I.E. just using modern hardware and throwing an emulator on there).

 

Most of this talk of a "new A8" fails to account for skills, demographics, and economics. I would love to see a highly open and modifiable A8 on new silicon. It just makes the Atari nerd in me simply drool. But it gets less likely with each passing month and year that we don't see something like the FB3 (which I understood was to be an A8 of some sort). There are many people with the skills to implement such a thing but I suspect the intersection of that set of people and gonzo A8 geeks is very small. You might pay such a one to do an FPGA design but how much financial return is in it?

 

A new motherboard using surplus old silicon with the easy ability to be mounted in modern cases, use modern power supplies, and be connected to (some) modern peripherals is more doable. Ben Heckendorn does them on a one off basis for a fairly steep price. A few people here seem to have the requisite skills but even modern bank switch cartridge designs take months at least to shake out. Still if you want a "new" custom A8 with all the goody upgrades you can have it today. Just be ready to pay the piper with either time or money.

 

Lastly, there is the emulation option you dislike. There are enough skilled developers to give us reasonably accurate facsimiles of an A8 on a broad range of hardware. I agree with you that emulation isn't perfect but for quite a few people it is "Good Enough". And if developers improve the accuracy from time to time then so much the better.

[HiroProX]

A "new" A8 is possible. The trick is, it has to be realistic.

 

Personally, I'd settle for capability comparable to what the XL line was supposed to achieve. On that vein, a good starting line for development would be 1400XL/1450XLD/65XEM level machines. To that end, the idea of a replacement board for existing cases makes the most sense. Keep the board small, and it should be able to be hacked into any model of A8 case without too much difficulty.

 

Forget about "enhancing ANTIC or GTIA". Make the board expandable using the PBI, which is known and established tech. Though some enhancements could be built into the new board, such as SIO2IDE/MyIDE, dual POKEY, 1meg flash for ROM images/Cart. images, PBI FDD controller, USB. All things that have been worked up already. Maybe one extravagance would be to use SIMM memory, ala 30-pin SIMMs or such. For the truely adventurous, an ATX form-factor board with PBI slots, or a PBI backplane that'd fit in an existing ATX case, and would connect to the re-boarded A8.

 

From that point, if you want hot-rodded video, make a PBI card for it. But get a working foundation that isn't going to break the bank just getting to the point of being capable of making it.

 

At this point, I'd settle for a 1090XL clone backplane.

Edited July 18, 2008 by HiroProX

[ijor]

You can perfectly do software emulation on dedicated hardware (it is already done),

 

No, its not done. What you have is "almost exact" or "almost as good as", even on dedicated hardware.

 

I didn't mean it is already perfect. I only meant that software emulation on dedicated hardware was already done. The "perfectly" in my sentence meant (it is perfect possible to do).

 

If you're not, its simulating - i.e. trying to reproduce a behavior. That's not 100% accuracy, what you're talking about is accurate behavior. An emulator can have 100% the same expected behavior, but not 100% accurately reproduce...

 

It is possibly my limited english, but seems to me you are just playing semantics. What is the difference between 100% accurate behavior, but not 100% accurate reproduction. What is the difference between exact, perfect, or 100%. We all mean the same thing.

 

And regardless what the different wording might mean, you are not saying why you think that software emulation can't be as accurate (or perfect, or exact, or whatever) as a hardware clone.

 

You might call it simulation, emulation, translation. Who cares how it is internally implemented. I could argue that a modern hardware implementation, based on a completely different technology and silicon process than the original, is a simulation as well. It is certainly is if you look at it at the analog level. But again who cares?

 

You don't care if the internal implementation is the original chip, or the same netsmak, a modern ASIC clone, an FPGA clone, or if there are little fast gremlins inside that are manually moving switches.

 

You only care about the external signals. As long as the externals signals are identical, you have no way to know one from the other and then you don't care.

 

- i.e. I have yet to hear any software that has the same depth as an actual POKEY.

 

You are probably right. So? What that this prooves in relation to the debate? Nothing at all. It only means that current generation of software emulators are not yet "there". It doesn't mean they couldn't eventually reach that level.

 

There are inaccuracies related to Pokey that are more or less known (see some of the recent threads here). Some are being studied, and other probably are yet unknown. You have to remember that the Pokey schematics are not publicly available, so it is not fair to claim emulators are not perfect. You certainly can't make a 1-1 gate-level hardware reproduction without the schematics or netlist, can you?

 

Or a SID chip - even though all the SID emulators are reproducing all the expected behavior (minus the ability to duplicate the analog section).

 

I don't know much about the SID, so I can't really comment on this. But if the analog section wasn't reproduced, then it is not surprising that it sounds different.

 

And speaking about analog sections, how you would reproduce it on a FPGA based clone? You can't. This means that you can't actually make a 1-1 gate-level reproduction of Pokey on an FPGA.

 

That's not entirely true, you can start with the original mask and chip designs and go from there. In fact some single chip designs take the original chips and lay them out on a single chip. I.E. you have some of the final generation 2600 JR.'s that have all-in-one chips in them. Or you have the FB2 chip.

 

I didn't mean the original mask literally. I mean that any modern reproduction isn't likely to be a gate-level reproduction of the original one.

 

I don't think the FB2 is a 100% gate-level reproduction of the 2600. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK you didn't have the 6502 netlist, do you? So all you did, was to make a new design with the exact same behavior (or at least you tried). That's exactly what software emulation does.

 

And in the case of the FB2 you were lucky that you had the schematics of the custom chipset. For most classic consoles and computers, there are no schematics, netlist, or any internal/confidential information available. So all what a hardware clone can do, is once again to try to reproduce the behavior.

[peteym5]

You know I am not sure myself when someone says Emulation is not 100% perfect or accurate. I run Atari800Win and does not have any issues running anything that was ever written for an Atari. If something is slightly off like the palette, it can be adjusted. Like I say, if you were to go with the emulation route, you can include emulators for the other Atari game systems as well in a single package.

 

I would prefer going for a more compact design than a tower, more like a laptop or a small device that can optionally be hooked to a tv. We are talking a computer system that is over 25 years old. You can load everything onto a laptop hard drive and still have an external floppy hookup for your floppy drives. Most of us emulation users have a copy of every game ever made for the Atari anyway now. You can easily get them from News Groups or Bit-Torrent services. Most of the stuff people won't even care about. Atari has not cracked down on internet emulation of the 8-bit system nor seem to have any interest in it.