Why doesn't some shoot Ben Smith?

[dinosaur]

It does not happen very much, but I 100% agree with Mathy.

 

And I can remember I once bought something from him, and his aftersales service is excellent too.

 

Ofcourse... If he posts too much, that can be annoying, but hey... you could ignore it. It can't be his fault, the csa8 dried up.

 

And starting a public offense about someone personal... hmmm that appears to be a little below the belt too to me.

 

But ok. It's free to give your opinion

 

Marius

 

I think that you missed the whole complaint in the post.

 

I don't care that he sells Ataris,Hyundais,or soya beans.

 

The problem is that he posts his ADVERTISEMENTS on csa8 almost every day.

Once a month is more than enough!

 

This guy has been flamed more that Saddam Hussain,but that doesn't bother him.

He just marches along doing what ever the hell he wants to and the group be damned!

 

Any reasonable person would draw the conclusion that such behavior is not acceptable to the majority of the Usegroup,but he doesn't get the message.

 

ONCE A MONTH IS ENOUGH!

[MEtalGuy66]

It does not happen very much, but I 100% agree with Mathy.

 

And I can remember I once bought something from him, and his aftersales service is excellent too.

 

Ofcourse... If he posts too much, that can be annoying, but hey... you could ignore it. It can't be his fault, the csa8 dried up.

 

And starting a public offense about someone personal... hmmm that appears to be a little below the belt too to me.

 

But ok. It's free to give your opinion

 

Marius

 

I think that you missed the whole complaint in the post.

 

I don't care that he sells Ataris,Hyundais,or soya beans.

 

The problem is that he posts his ADVERTISEMENTS on csa8 almost every day.

Once a month is more than enough!

 

This guy has been flamed more that Saddam Hussain,but that doesn't bother him.

He just marches along doing what ever the hell he wants to and the group be damned!

 

Any reasonable person would draw the conclusion that such behavior is not acceptable to the majority of the Usegroup,but he doesn't get the message.

 

ONCE A MONTH IS ENOUGH!

 

So ya gonna "off" his sorry ass?

or are ya just blowin smoke?

Edited October 19, 2007 by MEtalGuy66

[Marius]

I think that you missed the whole complaint in the post.

 

I don't care that he sells Ataris,Hyundais,or soya beans.

 

The problem is that he posts his ADVERTISEMENTS on csa8 almost every day.

Once a month is more than enough!

 

I did get that point, but MY point is:

 

1. You should NOT start a public flamewar about someone personal.

 

2. Joke or not... I think you never should talk like 'why doesn't some SHOOT...'

 

Everything else you wrote in your post is faded-out, due to that big mistakes you've maid. Ofcourse... it irritates you. And because it irritates you, you start an irritating topic about it HERE, so now your problem irritates not only you, but all atariage readers. Good 'shot' ...

 

This guy has been flamed more that Saddam Hussain,but that doesn't bother him.

 

My old grandmother already told me to 'ignore' such fellows. And let me know: now you've started your crusade against him here on atariage will stop him? I'd say: let it go.

 

The more you talk about him or his ads make him believe his ads do really work. He certainly gots your attention, and thanks to your action, the whole atariage community has.

 

Any reasonable person would draw the conclusion that such behavior is not acceptable to the majority of the Usegroup,but he doesn't get the message.

 

And do you?

 

Thanks

Marius

[carmel_andrews]

Hey...if you shoot ben smith...there'll be no more comp.sys.atari.8bit

 

haven't seen that in ages anyway

 

 

Please remember though...not all of us carry guns here

[dinosaur]

LAST POST ON THIS SUBJECT:

 

Obviously someone here didn't realise the title of this topic was tongue-in-cheek......

 

I didn't realize that BS (snicker!) had so many admirers here........

 

So....I will say no more.

 

P.S. Politically Correct I ain't.....and damn proud of it.

 

Good night

[MEtalGuy66]

LAST POST ON THIS SUBJECT:

 

Obviously someone here didn't realise the title of this topic was tongue-in-cheek......

 

I didn't realize that BS (snicker!) had so many admirers here........

 

So....I will say no more.

 

P.S. Politically Correct I ain't.....and damn proud of it.

 

Good night

 

Aww c'mon!

 

You can't just make a death threat and back down like that..

 

You want folks to think you're yella?

 

Someone needs to put that poor crippled feller down before he goes and ruins all the atari newsgroups..

 

Just go to his house, and call him out...

 

He cant possibly draw too fast, wearing that wheel chair..

 

Seems like where I'm from, a man doesn't talk about killin a man, unless he aims to do it..

 

That newsgroup ain't big enough for the two of you..

 

so make good on yer word...

[Artlover]

1. You should NOT start a public flamewar about someone personal.

Only he's not personal. He's a public figure on the public internet publicly spamming his open to the public business. Things like personal and private have no meaning when the subject choses not to be neither personal or private.

 

2. Joke or not... I think you never should talk like 'why doesn't some SHOOT...'

1. It's just a figure of speech, a very common one at that in these parts of the world.

2. That's your personal opinion, which is fair enough. But lets leave stuff where it lies, personal opinion doesn't equate to internet rules. There aren't rules and laws against figurative speech. There are however rules and laws against spamming.

 

Everything else you wrote in your post is faded-out, due to that big mistakes you've maid.

Define "mistake". Hint, not viewing things how you chose to doesn't count.

 

BTW, you mean "made", not "maid". Thanks for illustrating what a mistake is however.

 

And let me know: now you've started your crusade against him here on atariage will stop him?

He certainly gots your attention, and thanks to your action, the whole atariage community has.

And consequently, even more people ignoring him now.

 

Any reasonable person would draw the conclusion that such behavior is not acceptable to the majority of the Usegroup,but he doesn't get the message.

And do you?

Commiting a crime is wrong, but so is discussing said crime? Since when is speaking out against unacceptable behavior unacceptable behavior? Ultimatly, there is only "one" person violating netiquette in all of this.

 

I didn't realize that BS (snicker!) had so many admirers here........

Sad, isn't it. I think the guy could tattoo his url on puppies or urinate on their children and it would be ok because he's such a great guy trying to make a living selling Atari which apparently excuses all wrong doing and demands exception to internet policy, rule and law.

 

Really makes me wonder why society even bothers with policies, rules, laws, codes of conduct and the like when the general consensus is "only what I think matters". But then isn't that always the way it is? So long as someone likes what you're doing, it's ok to them, no matter how wrong it is. Yup, kitten crushing is ok by the people who requested and bought the videos remember.

 

Most people don't have a problem with what he's trying to do. It's simply a matter that when one owns and operates a business, one expects them to be responcible and professional. While he is on many levels, he isn't on all. It's quite puzzingling that one can be so perfect with everything else, yet be so amazingly contradictory with this to the point of selfishly abusing usenet unneccessarly.

 

Personaly, my great hope is that one day, isp's and usenet providers will finally start actually enforcing the rules and policies that have long existed but been ignored and people that are unwilling to abide by the rules and policies, regardless of their intent, loose their access. Not that I'm any big fan of regulation, but usenet is a pit. People like this, unknowingly or not, and those that defend it because it satasifies their whims ARE a contributing factor. Rules are rules. Don't like them, tough. Ignoring them because you know you can get away with it is selfish and arrogant. The lawless of usenet was fine back in the days when the only people using it knew what they were doing, had respect, and followed the rules because it was the right thing to do. The problem is usenet is currently made up mostly of stupid selfish people who only care about themselves. It's obvious users can't abide by the honor system anymore so the days of lawlessness needs to end and polices need to be enforced with action. Of course, internaly, the system needs work too. There are way too many rogue usenet servers out there that won't respond to a cancel command. Those systems need to be removed or blocked from the matrix. That alone would solve more then half the problems.

[Mathy]

Hello guys (and girls?)

 

Where you live, this might be figurative speech, but how are most of us to know? If you do/say/show anything on the internet, you have to take into account, that somebody might take it in a different way then you intended it to. That doesn't mean that you have to do everything in your power to prevent people from misunderstanding you at all cost and at every moment. But you have to take into account that people might do so. And you have to take into account that people might be good at a lot of things, but maybe (or even probably) not in all things. I can say for myself that I'm pretty smart. That doesn't mean I understand everything. Or that I know everything. Heck, I have more problems doing things you might take for granted then you might probably imagine. And maybe I do stick my nose into things I know nothing about, way to much. I've probably even managed to piss people off, just because I unintentionally made grammatical, spelling or translating errors writing stuff in English, German or even Dutch. What I want to say is, I'm not perfect, and so are the other 6 billion people living on this planet. Which includes Ben Smith. His spam annoys a lot of people. But for some reason Ben doesn't get the message. There have been zillions of discussions about Ben. All they result in is more discussions about Ben. And if strong language is used (intended or not), people react to (what they see as) strong language, not to the topic the topic starter wanted to talk about. Just take Ben for what he is, a guy with shortcommings, just like you and I. And yes, his shortcommings annoy you. Just like my shortcommings will probably bug atleast somebody on the net. As will yours. I would be a very nice world if we all understood each other and never pissed each other off. But that's not gonna happen in the real world, where you can talk to somebody directly and see his bodylanguage. And it sure isn't gonna happen in the virtual world, where you don't see anybodies bodylanguage and might have to wait for ages to get an answer.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy (trying hard to do his small part in making this world a litttle better . Now how do I get this sunflower to stick in my very short hair)

[tjlazer]

I do think he needs to calm down on the SPAM posting a tad, but with that said, it isn't THAT bad. I don't know why you guys get so worked up about it. I'd say if he knocked it down to HALF the posts it would be fine. I guess this is his ONLY way to advertise, and it is FREE so what do you expect? LOL Kinda feel sorry for the guy.

[Heaven/TQA]

ok...beware now my 0.02 US$ from old europe... i followed the thread now for couple of days and to be honest...i can not understand the moining and getting such negative about spam emails... i thought that we are living in countries where you have freedom of speech and we are living in democracy... i could argue a lot about people and even about the "one nation under god" but i do not... so what? be cool and let he doing things what he wants to do... its not against any law so what?

 

or do i get something wrong?

[MEtalGuy66]

ok...beware now my 0.02 US$ from old europe... i followed the thread now for couple of days and to be honest...i can not understand the moining and getting such negative about spam emails... i thought that we are living in countries where you have freedom of speech and we are living in democracy... i could argue a lot about people and even about the "one nation under god" but i do not... so what? be cool and let he doing things what he wants to do... its not against any law so what?

 

or do i get something wrong?

 

Do you live in france?

 

Here in the states, we've had freedom of speech for so long, it IS ANNOYING. The laws are such that noone can do anything about it, but we certainly do bitch about it from time to time.

 

Im so sick of people whining about their rights being infringed apon. Our society is going to helll because no matter how reprehensible, annoying, or unnecesary an action may be, we cannot discriminate against it because it defies some person's RIGHT to perform it.

 

Anyone who wants to do ANYTHING can get an attourney to sue in their favor.. And the system is such that it is profitable for them to do so... Once the court case has been won, it becomes legal presidence, and next thing you know, the legislature is writing it into law..

 

This is why our government wastes its time on things like gay marriage, flag burning, abortion... etc... And meanwhile, the days when you could leave your house unlocked for even a quick trip to the store, leave your car running unattended on a cold morning, or trust the common man for ANYTHING are long gone because we have sh*t canned every moral standard by which we used to hold people accountable in favor of one *sshole or another's "freedoms"....

 

This is the true DOWNFALL of democracy...

 

I now yield the soap-box to the next speaker....

[frogstar_robot]

ok...beware now my 0.02 US$ from old europe... i followed the thread now for couple of days and to be honest...i can not understand the moining and getting such negative about spam emails... i thought that we are living in countries where you have freedom of speech and we are living in democracy... i could argue a lot about people and even about the "one nation under god" but i do not... so what? be cool and let he doing things what he wants to do... its not against any law so what?

 

or do i get something wrong?

 

There is a difference between freedom and anarchy. Freedom of speech means that one can speak his mind freely and know that official retailiation is forbidden. Freedom of speech DOES NOT mean that one can do things like yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theatre. Freedom of speech also doesn't entitle one to a forum or audience. This guy's love of things Atari and plucky hardworking spirit are not a "Behave like an utter ass" card. He is abusing the social mores of the forum he is posting in. "Freedom of Speech" doesn't mean he gets to urinate on the rest of the Atari lovers. "Freedom of Speech" means that he is allowed to purchase his own bandwidth on his own server and advertise with that. He is using the bandwidth and resources kindly provided by others for specified purposes for his personal gain: He is being a spammer for all that the product advertised is quality. In America, we say "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose." That is an acknowledgement that "freedom" doesn't mean the right to abuse others. BTW, I believe the parent poster also crossed the line by advocating jokingly or not that they guy should be shot. This spammer is out of line but physical harm for what he is doing isn't called for.

 

Also, a good working definition of "asshole" is "One who consistently exercises his rights whether socially appropriate or not." A hobbyist forum will tolerate a limited amount of relevent advertisement from a regular but he is crossing the line. He may not be violating laws but he is without a doubt being an asshole.

Edited October 20, 2007 by frogstar_robot

[Chrodegang]

... This spammer is out of line but physical harm for what he is doing isn't called for...

 

Nice posting. I completely agree with what you wrote.

[Artlover]

its not against any law so what?

 

or do i get something wrong?

That's the thing.

 

There is such a thing as nettiquete and terms of use as defined by ones provider. They just typicaly aren't enforced because it takes effort. ISP and usenet admins have more important things to do then monitor problem-matic users unless directed to by some legal order. Most of the time, it's offended users or companies suffering from IP violation doing the research and monitoring to build their own independant case, and only go to the provider to issue the C&D order.

 

Further, there are laws on the books regarding various bits of internet. Like spam. Except it's another one of those not clearly defined hard to enforce things, so unless it's a clearly obvious case like someone sending 100's of porno e-mails to millions of people at once, count on the law as being useless. Spitting on the sidewalk is illegal. Now I dare you to find a cop that will actually take the time to write you a ticket and take the time in the office submitting all the in-triplicate paper work for it, even if you did it in front of them.

 

It comes down to a simple matter of the people in charge not giving a damn and allowing people to get away with stuff because they don't want to be bothered with doing it. Everyone knows that, and too many people take advantage of it rather then have any respect for the rest of us and honor the policies/rules/laws for the sake of doing right.

[Curt Vendel]

I know Ben seems to be annoying....

 

 

He's not malicious or mean, Ben happens to be a very nice person.

 

 

I've known him for probably close to 15 years. Ben is a little slow, and means well. This is is sole occupation and income earning source.

 

Just take his posts with a grain of salt and move on, he doesn't mean to hurt or bother anyone, just leave it at that.

 

 

 

 

Curt

[kevin242]

I've been on the Atari 8bit Usenet group forever... since the early 90's... and I agree this guy posts his adverts way too much, which isn't a problem since you can easily add him to your kill file like any other troll on the Usenet. The only problem for me is I use Google Groups for discussion which doesn't support kill files, so yes he is annoying but geesh noone is forcing you to read his posts.

 

I find it interesting he gets all his equipment through donations, since he sent a message once offering me a AC adapter for an ST disk drive for 45 dollars + shipping. That's a little expensive! A look at his prices reveals everything he sells is over priced, he would be the last person I would go to if I was looking for something. You gotta admire him (or pity him) that he accesses the net using only Atari equipment, but I question his use of the Atari TT. Wouldn't the Falcon be a superior choice?

Edited October 20, 2007 by kevin242

[FastRobPlus]

Ah! So that's where Ben, our "Atari BENefactor" lurks! I read his web page now and again for kicks. I don't do Usenet ice we have this little WWW thing going now, but I understand the mentality.

 

Now that I know he's on the newsgroups, I respect him a bit more (maybe .0001% or so) becuse it seems he really is using Atari exclusively.

 

I can't tell you how anoying the 20 and 30-something loosers on the Amiga forums are. They drone on forever about how evil M$ killed thier hopes and dreams and we should all be living in an Amiga-powered Shangri-La and everything else sucks and the world can never be put right. Meanwhile, they post thair rants from thier Mac, Linix, and Windows(!) boxes. Every time thir HD crashes they log in to say how this would never have happened if Amiga had survived.

 

I determined long ago that there are two types in our hobby (three if you count the ones who just want to turn a buck):

 

Type 1: Retro enthusiasts who lived and loved thier home computers, and want to recapture the feel, and maybe even push the system past what was possible back in the day.

 

Type 2: Former big fish in a small pond. These are the guys who understood the Atari ST or Amiga, or Apple II or whatever way back and aybe even made money with them. They didn't keep up and now they find the world has passed them by, they are no longer the big fish and they scream nonstop into a void about how the world took a wrong turn and only they can see it.

 

This reminds me of something that happened back in 1989. I was at a computer swap meet in Bremerton, Washington. A hole in the wall affair, the kind you go to to get a baragin on a 3.5" floppy drive or a 2x CD-ROM or a math chip for your 386. Anyway, there was a table all decked out with TRS-80 equipment. Manning the table was a guy with some TRS-80 setups (including a CoCo III I think) and trying to convince anyone who would listen that the TRS-80 (though discontinued) was a viable platfomr for the future and that "Nothing you can do with 386 couldn't be done better on the TRS-80." He had his systems kludged together with 2400 baud modems, color inkjet printers, and all sorts of modern-ish stuff. It was clear that the TRS could not compete on sound, CD-ROM access, games, GUI, etc so he downplayed all of these as frils that were not necessary to serious computing. Like Ben, I admired that he had learned the outdated platform so completely that he wanted to live in it forever, but I also felt some pity in knowing that he used to be a forward-looking person who jumped on the computer badwagon early, only to turn into a kind of parody of a forward-looking person.

 

I still wonder if he sticks to his TRS-80, and unlike Ben, we never hear from him becuse he's so far in the past that he can't communicate with us at all any more.

 

*edit* forgive the typos - I typed this on my PocketPC phone.

Edited October 20, 2007 by FastRobPlus

[potatohead]

I think his prices are fair.

 

If you want it cheap, you can go looking for it and spend that time, or give Ben a call and get it straight away. Look at all those little high markup corner markets. They do exactly the same thing! Want your milk, or soda quick? Pay for that, or wade through the lines at the discount retailers and pay with your time. He's adding value, just like one should do to earn those dollars.

 

If Atari is his sole source of income, that's damn cool!

 

The simple truth of this stuff is it is really only as big of a deal as you think it is. The number of postings, limited venue, and many options each of us has for dealing with them, really puts this into pick your battles territory.

 

Is it possible to surf web forums and such on the higher end Atari machines? I've never kept up with those, preferring the 8bitters. It's entirely possible he is really not aware of the greater Internet, if he really is only using Atari machines.

 

From his perspective then, working his ass off to make sure every potential Atari buyer knows who he is and what he's got, is a pretty big deal, isn't it?

 

Bottom line to me:

 

Somebody's gotta do it, or a lot of stuff just fades away. Why not this guy? He loves the computers, and I think doing this stuff is a lot of work from his point of view. Seeing as how there are so many other venues, and options he's not doing all that much harm, and everybody more or less knows who he is and how to get hold of him. He may well not be capable of anything else. So, is "fixing" this "problem" really worth it?

 

Not from where I stand. Most Atari people are cool, right. So let's just be cool Atari people and support somebody really into the scene, for a lot of reasons beyond nostalgia. That's it for me, on this topic.

[Goochman]

Lets not get the 8bit arena into the same place the Jag arena is - Ben aint doing anything wrong - seems to be a nice person of limited means. Provides a service that some of us can appreciate. Sends way too many msgs out.

 

If thats the worst thing we got going, then Amen brother - move along, nothing to see here.

[Noelio]

Lets not get the 8bit arena into the same place the Jag arena is - Ben aint doing anything wrong - seems to be a nice person of limited means. Provides a service that some of us can appreciate. Sends way too many msgs out.

 

If thats the worst thing we got going, then Amen brother - move along, nothing to see here.

 

 

I totally see both sides. I've had recent dealings with Ben and I really can't sit back and not say that he was absolutely awesome in every respect. Someone said slow, that may be right but more of in a savant way. He may not know netiquette nor negotiative communication very well but he knows his Atari for certain. He babys them like, well, babies! He's running a real rescue agency as I see it and there's got to be operating costs if its mainly just feeding himself! ! His communication was excellent... Too excellent in that it was probably too much communication LOL! He also seemed to overlook the time difference and there was a couple times where I did get a call 3am or later but the way I see it; anything Atari is acceptable 24/7 if getting it or not is in the balance.

 

Another little story... 1991/1992 I was trying to scoop up a modem or interface for my 130... Was having a LOT of trouble and really had no resources... I called him and then he in turn called me back with all the info I was looking for on his dime. I was not a customer at the time as I told him I didnt have the kind of money to buy the parts from the western USA (I'm as far east in Canada as you can get) and get it all shipped here etc. Since I was a Teen I was poor lol. My point is that he explained the pinouts of the SIO / RS 232 jacks etc and talked about all of my alternatives... All on his dime... When it came time to buy stuff this past year (lots of it) I remembered that service and backed the truck up so to speak hehe.

 

Spam sucks indeed but at least its Atari spam in an Atari forum!!!

I do agree that the frequency might be a bit much. Once a week isnt bad.

 

Hope your day is going well folks!

[BoatofCar]

I can't tell you how anoying the 20 and 30-something loosers on the Amiga forums are. They drone on forever about how evil M$ killed thier hopes and dreams and we should all be living in an Amiga-powered Shangri-La and everything else sucks and the world can never be put right. Meanwhile, they post thair rants from thier Mac, Linix, and Windows(!) boxes. Every time thir HD crashes they log in to say how this would never have happened if Amiga had survived.

 

Exactly. This is the best post of the thread. Thanks for contributing something intelligent instead of taking shots at a guy who sends out a couple ads a week and is being roasted alive for it.

[MEtalGuy66]

I totally undersand the AMIGA guys' points of view, but I dont respect anyone who sits and whines about something that happened over 15 years ago..

 

It's true that at the time COmmodore collapsed, the AMIGA represented by far the most advanced platform in home/personal computing in many ways. Its also true that due to the nature of the market, they could not continue funding the huge beast that was Commodore. Life goes on..

 

The same can be said about the automotive industry. I saw a video-tape in auto mechanics class in 1992 about hydrogen powered vehicles. We had 100% of the available technology then to do it, and all of the benefits were well known. Unfortunately, with such a large section of the US and international market and economy hinging on the petroleum industry, it has been extremely slow changing a huge market/supply infastructure from one medium to another. Its a fact of the world we live in. You can either sit around and whine about it... or deal with it and decide to live your life in the happiest way you can.

 

As far as someone who trys to live life "in the 80s" and make a living off of old technology... well, I guess he has a right to attempt to do so.. But "beating a dead horse into the ground" by repetitively spamming advertisements into an otherwise productive newsgroup sounds like a pretty surefire way to annoy more potential customers than anything else.. Especially when 99% of what he sells can be bought from B&C, BEST, or off of EBAY..

[tjb]

Hey tj,

 

So what was his house like? Lots of clutter? Just curious.

 

Personally I feel pretty bad for the guy. It's obvious that he's a bit off. It's got to be hard to try and make ends meet selling Atari items.

 

I say let him be. Direct all flaming arrows to /dev/null.

 

tjb

[Tempest]

I think the point has been made.

 

Tempest