Homebrew Controllers: Modernish 5200 and Vectrex Digital

[ApolloBoy]

Do want.

Edited December 14, 2007 by ApolloBoy

[BigO]

I like them both, actually. I also did like the biege faceplate. But this looks great! How do you DO all this stuff? You're more talented than I, sir.

Ha, thanks. But, don't be fooled by that little bit of smoke and mirrors. While I do have some basic metalworking skills, what you're looking at there ain't them. It's just a strip of aluminum adhesive tape cut down from 2" wide with a razor knife and a steel ruler.

 

Looks good enough for the camera, but I wouldn't do it on a production piece unless it was with an inlaid, brushed and laminated material.

[BassGuitari]

Still crooked a bit, but that's mostly due to following the edge of the hacksaw cut plastic face plate (hey, it was a mockup and it's hard to get a keyboard properly lined up on a table saw).

Not sure if I like this better. Will have to decide when/if I come up with a final design.

 

I think I'd like it if the buttons were centered in the strip. I put them down as far as I could to leave room for a slightly larger keypad in the mockup stage.

 

That is the coolest thing I've seen in a very long time. Excellent work, BigO.

 

I like my stock 5200 joysticks when they work...but if I go longer than a day or two without using them, they go wonky on me, and I'm starting to get a bit sick of it. I have to fix them every time I use them, basically. I'll bet your controller works amazingly.

 

Have you considered doing something like this for the Vectrex?

[BigO]

Have you considered doing something like this for the Vectrex?

 

At this time, I can admit only to having acquired a Vectrex recently and wished for a slightly different controller and having searched for the schematic to save me the trouble of tearing my Vectrex controller apart...

 

 

As a general statement, building this 5200 controller isn't quite exactly what I had set out to do. I was researching for a similar project and needed a way to test some things. As it stands now, I'm iffy on moving forward to producing something in any quantity, largely because I haven't found a good source for the potentiometer thumbstick that is compatible with the simple interface methodology I want to use. The one I'm using came from a 3rd party Astropad Dreamcast controller.

 

I'd really like to use the ones from the OEM Dreamcast controller as they're solid state and plentiful. I just don't want to commit to developing the electronics to interface the Hall Effect sensors to the 5200's analog port. If somebody put a gun to my head and said, "Make it happen", I could. But, it wouldn't be cost effective enough to go into production with. I have some experimentation planned, but it'll be some time before I can dedicate the resources to that investigation.

 

If anybody can point me to a source of readily available thumbsticks that I can easily use, I'd appreciate it.

 

I'm looking at alternatives, too. The Playstation "Dual Shock" controller has nifty thumbsticks, but the pots don't have enough range to work properly without some more complex electronics. It appears to be an Alps piece, so I may be able to find replacement pots that will work. Again, cost goes way up and procurement of the stick assembly is iffy; spotty at best.

 

If anybody happens to have technical knowledge of the Nintendo 64 thumbsticks, I'd appreciate you sharing. I ran across some technical info the other day that looked discouraging (simplicity-wise) and now can't find it. But, those replacement/repair parts are so pervasive that it bears looking into again. I just bought an N64 controller at a thrift store that I'm tearing apart.

 

Any pointers to resources would be appreciated. I'm not in the electronics industry, so sourcing this stuff isn't my forte. I'll keep searching the web. I'm sure I could find somebody in China who'd make me a million for a buck apiece, but it just ain't gonna be able to happen that way.

Edited December 14, 2007 by BigO

[Atari~e]

That is pretty nifty, cool. I remember Atariage had Atari 5200 Super System controller interface that could use a PC, 2600 & 7800 controller when pluged into the 5200 controller ports back in I believe 2000. I wish they still had them because I am really getting into my Atari 5200. I use my Wico controller with the 5200 touch button joystick controller. I need to get more games for it. Time to go to Videogamesnewyork in the East Village :0)...

[pmpddytim]

If anybody happens to have technical knowledge of the Nintendo 64 thumbsticks, I'd appreciate you sharing. I ran across some technical info the other day that looked discouraging (simplicity-wise) and now can't find it. But, those replacement/repair parts are so pervasive that it bears looking into again. I just bought an N64 controller at a thrift store that I'm tearing apart.

 

I don't know anything technical about N64 thumbsticks but I do know they wear out quickly. They tend to go "flaccid" with extended use. Meaning after awhile they don't like to return to center. I never played a ton of N64 but I've killed 2 thumbsticks. So to me that seems a bit backwards in terms of reliability.

 

I would pay $100 easy if you decide to produce them.

 

If you decide it is cost prohibitive and you are not going to produce them a tutorial would be great. I'm sure people would even buy them as kits, I would.

 

-Tim

[BigO]

I don't know anything technical about N64 thumbsticks but I do know they wear out quickly. They tend to go "flaccid" with extended use. Meaning after awhile they don't like to return to center. I never played a ton of N64 but I've killed 2 thumbsticks. So to me that seems a bit backwards in terms of reliability.

 

I would pay $100 easy if you decide to produce them.

 

If you decide it is cost prohibitive and you are not going to produce them a tutorial would be great. I'm sure people would even buy them as kits, I would.

 

-Tim

 

I have seen reports of that problem. That explains the widely available replacement parts. I wouldn't bother if I see or hear evidence that the replacement parts are equally bad quality/design.

 

I cracked open the N64 controller I bought and learned nothing. It was a third party controller that had what turned out to be a gargantuan, crappy looking potentiometer based joystick. Hot glue to attach the pots to the assembly? C'mon...

 

Anybody got an N64 controller they want to donate for research? I'll cover the cheapest possible shipping.

Edited December 14, 2007 by BigO

[doubledown]

Aren't the actual N64 thumbsticks encoder-based?

[joeybastard]

here's a page on the N64 sticks if that helps.

 

 

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/n643.htm

[BigO]

Aren't the actual N64 thumbsticks encoder-based?

 

I believe so. That's not too scary if I can get all of the specs and I'm building one or two for me. I can probably handle the technological issues, but the time to write code and the additional expense of a microcontroller means an expensive product or finding a way to sell a whole bunch of 'em.

 

So, I'm still kinda dependent on finding a supply of potentiometer based thumbsticks with 100K+ ohm pots to keep it simple.

[BigO]

[duplicate post]

Edited February 7, 2008 by BigO

[BigO]

here's a page on the N64 sticks if that helps.

 

 

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/n643.htm

 

Yes, that is helpful, thanks.

 

The drawing looks like it would be a Gray code sorta scheme like an optomechanical mouse. But, the text makes it sound like the slot(s) in the wheel would get progressively more open or closed depending on wheel/stick position. The latter agrees with how I interpreted the one other article I read about the N64 stick (that I can't find now). That's actually encouraging.

 

Based on experience decoding Gray code with a PIC for another hobby project, I believe the latter would be more straightforward to deal with. I'll be looking for one to experiment with.

 

[EDIT]: further sources seem to indicate that the optomechanical mouseish scheme is what's used in the OEM style stick for th N64

Edited December 15, 2007 by BigO

[BigO]

Minor update. I found another 3rd party Dreamcast controller that uses the same thumbstick. As much as I'd hate to use salvaged parts on a production piece, at least there's a chance of finding the stuff. But, at 6 bucks a throw for the controllers, I'm gonna have to find a big lot on eBay or something.

 

This one is the Quantum FighterPad by Interact.

 

Instead of light gray, this thumbstick is charcoal colored...I may swap it out...or start on a more production friendly prototype II.

[BigO]

I expect a full report.

 

If anyone wants to make me a smokin' deal on 5200 Kaboom!, I'd be happy to report on my findings with it.

 

'fraid the report isn't all positive. While I can certainly play Kaboom with the thumbstick, I can play it much better with the other full size joystick custom controller that I built. I can't imagine either of those rivaling the play when using a paddle controller.

 

The thumbstick, as with any self-centering controller just isn't anything like ideal for correlating controller position directly to player position (vs. player velocity).

 

Love the game, though. Thanks again for offering it up. I will work on a way to play it better.

[joeybastard]

Minor update. I found another 3rd party Dreamcast controller that uses the same thumbstick. As much as I'd hate to use salvaged parts on a production piece, at least there's a chance of finding the stuff. But, at 6 bucks a throw for the controllers, I'm gonna have to find a big lot on eBay or something.

 

This one is the Quantum FighterPad by Interact.

 

Instead of light gray, this thumbstick is charcoal colored...I may swap it out...or start on a more production friendly prototype II.

 

Funny, that's the one I tried to make a 5200 stick out of last year but I couldn't figure it out. I ended up just messing up a 5200 stick and the DC pad since I kind of just screw around, I don't know what I'm doing with this stuff.

[BigO]

Minor update. I found another 3rd party Dreamcast controller that uses the same thumbstick. As much as I'd hate to use salvaged parts on a production piece, at least there's a chance of finding the stuff. But, at 6 bucks a throw for the controllers, I'm gonna have to find a big lot on eBay or something.

 

This one is the Quantum FighterPad by Interact.

 

Instead of light gray, this thumbstick is charcoal colored...I may swap it out...or start on a more production friendly prototype II.

 

Funny, that's the one I tried to make a 5200 stick out of last year but I couldn't figure it out. I ended up just messing up a 5200 stick and the DC pad since I kind of just screw around, I don't know what I'm doing with this stuff.

 

If you still have the remnants laying around, PM me. I might be able to help. As far as using this particular thumbstick in place of the 5200 pots, well there's almost nothing to it. If it is the same thumbstick, you should be able to hack up that controller to make a 5200 controller out of it. I don't have it in front of me, but there may even be room for a keypad. Even if there's not, you could probably rig up the most commonly used buttons with what's there: start,pause,reset, 1,2,*,#.

 

You'd have to do something with the cable, but it sounds like you sacrificed a 5200 controller, so no problem there.

[BigO]

I came across a cheap, worn out N64 controller yesterday. I can definitely use that optomechanical setup if I include a microcontroller in my controller but, blecch, what a bad design. I hadn't seen anyone actually detail out what wore out on those things. The slot that the stick passes through in each of the two gimbals is "wallered out" horribly. It seems like they used the wrong types of plastic. The stick shows almost no wear while the gimbals are totally shot. I was able to heat and bend the gimbals to close up the slot for a tiny improvement. In case anyone is wondering, it's not worth the effort.

 

If I have to include a microcontroller, I'll probably just go with the fairly common, smoother acting and better looking Playstation style thumbstick. I can pick those up new in single unit quantities for $9.00 each. Second hand in a Dual Shock controller: 2 for 6 to 8 bucks. I've tried a few things to make them work directly with only passive electronics, but it doesn't look that will happen.

 

Another possibility if I have to use a uC is that I might be able to use the original Dreamcast Hall effect sticks. Those controllers can be had all day long around here for about $6 each. I have yet to see one that shows any signs of wearing out. I'd also get a D-pad out of the deal that I might be able to incorporate.

[doubledown]

What are the ratings of the potentiometers in the 5200 controllers?

[Prodos8]

What are the ratings of the potentiometers in the 5200 controllers?

They're 500k ohm, but I don't think the stick moves enough to give them the full range.

Edited December 22, 2007 by Prodos8

[BigO]

What are the ratings of the potentiometers in the 5200 controllers?

You'd think I'd know this by now, but I don't. I measured it once, but did all of this controller development experimentally. It wasn't worth the effort to try to actually calculate the value for the auxiliary caps.

 

Now I'm going to have to dig out a real 5200 controller and measure it.

[doubledown]

I ask because there are a few analog joysticks that I've seen that might be able to be used for a 5200 controller versus having to hack one out of another controller.

[BigO]

I ask because there are a few analog joysticks that I've seen that might be able to be used for a 5200 controller versus having to hack one out of another controller.

 

Theoretically...

 

From what I've seen of the 5200 joystick mechanism, the pots look they probably rotate no more than 180 degrees. Pots typically rotate 330 degrees. They are 500K pots.

 

180=~55% of 330, so say they rotate about 55% of their total range

55% of 500K= ~273K total delta.

 

Assuming the wiper moves equally to both sides of center (250K):

Low end resistance would be 250K - (273K/2) = 250K-136K=114K (approx)

Hi end resistance would be 250K + (273K/2) = 250K + 136K = 386K (approx)

Edited December 22, 2007 by BigO

[Prodos8]

I ask because there are a few analog joysticks that I've seen that might be able to be used for a 5200 controller versus having to hack one out of another controller.

 

Theoretically...

 

From what I've seen of the 5200 joystick mechanism, the pots look they probably rotate no more than 180 degrees. Pots typically rotate 330 degrees. They are 500K pots.

 

180=~55% of 330, so say they rotate about 55% of their total range

55% of 500K= ~273K total delta.

 

Assuming the wiper moves equally to both sides of center (250K):

Low end resistance would be 250K - (273K/2) = 250K-136K=114K (approx)

Hi end resistance would be 250K + (273K/2) = 250K + 136K = 386K (approx)

Yup that pretty much sums it up. When I build my DIY MasterPlays I use 10k for least resistance, then 250K ( a 100k + 150k resistor) for middle, and 1Mohm for max on each axis. The original MasterPlay used an open circuit (air) for max resistance, which some games didn't like.

[phuzzed]

This looks really nice

 

Another nice addition would be just a standard D-Pad, for games, like Pac-Man, where it's not necessary to have the analog control.

 

But, that might complicate things..... Really nice though

 

Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie!

[SRGilbert]

This is a little off topic, but I'd like to see something simple like a true 4-way joystick with mechanical restrictors. With so many great arcade ports, this would be a no brainer I'd think.

 

I guess something like the Colecovision arcade stick like that guy from AU sold on here recently would be cool.