The Best Game of the Year - Kaz Kompo 2007

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

Hi Atarians! The first day of 2008 can mean only one: the time to choose the best Atari 8-bit game of the previous year. Thus, let's get started with Kaz Kompo 2007 - competition organised by me and Andreas Koch known as Charlie Chaplin. You can read more about here (yes! English version this time!)

 

You can vote on atari.online.pl webpage OR Atari Area forum OR Atari Age (in the present topic). The most interesting comments will be rewarded! Have a fun!

Edited January 1, 2008 by Kaz atari.online.pl

[GameEngine]

My top three are as follows:

 

1. Crownland - beautiful graphics

2. Yoomp! - perfect execution

3. Jetboy - for making it better then the original

 

Thank you.

[Tezz]

Hi Kaz, happy new year.. and wow what a cool year for our Atari 2007 was!... 2008 looks to continue even greater

 

hmm if I can choose only 3 from all the amazing work last year.. I guess that's going to be..

 

1: Crownland It was excellent to see such a professional game released which pushed the Atari graphically and also had good gameplay. I love the sprite engine. It is beyond great for me as a graphics guy to see good colorful graphics during game play. And I think Pr0be has since improved this and may release a bigger and better + version in 2008! It's a superb piece of work in my opinion despite any of the small criticisms that a few have placed on it for the things that were not totally completed in it to meet the competition deadline.

 

2: Yoomp! Wow, well what can you say about a game that has already had much said about it! very cool and worthy of the competition winner. Eru is a class coder. It's great to see coders of this standard working on the Atari. It was a very professional production.

 

3: Jet Set Wily 2007! How excellent it was to see the "real" Jet Set Willy accurately ported by xxl! It was certainly one of my Atari highlights last year. xxl deserves a lot of praise for his hard work last year, it's all impressive and long may it continue!

 

I'm tempted to break the rules and vote for more because there were so many great productions last year! BIG respect to all Atarians, I think 2008 will top 2007.

 

Regards

Tezz

Edited January 1, 2008 by Tezz

[Bunsen]

Kaz, you forgot two very nice games in your preselection written by Dieter Gretzschel and released in ABBUC Mag #91 - Mini Master-Mind and Multi Master-Mind written in Turbo-Basic. My Kudos goes to him, because of fine games and perfect presentation at the fujiama fair 2007.

 

1. Mini Master-Mind by Dieter Gretzschel

 

2. Game Harry by Winfried Fiedler

I love his blinking characters!

 

3. Multi Master-Mind by Dieter Gretzschel

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

Kaz, you forgot two very nice games in your preselection written by Dieter Gretzschel and released in ABBUC Mag #91 - Mini Master-Mind and Multi Master-Mind written in Turbo-Basic.

 

I didn't forget them - I didn't know they exist

I can attach to my list of games, where I can read ABBUC Mag and download its contents?

Edited January 1, 2008 by Kaz atari.online.pl

[pps]

Abbuc Mag can you get, if you become a member of abbuc. You´ll get a printed paper magazine with additional discs then 4 times the year.

 

If you create an account at abbuc.de, you can get access to the download section, where the discs of the mags also will be available.

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

Abbuc Mag can you get, if you become a member of abbuc. You´ll get a printed paper magazine with additional discs then 4 times the year. If you create an account at abbuc.de, you can get access to the download section, where the discs of the mags also will be available.

 

Thus, these games weren't really released . There were released for ABBUC members only. How people can vote for games if they couldn't see these games? If you want to popularize ABBUC programs, you shouldn't keep all your programs in a deep shadow Make them free. Kaz Kompo by definion is open competition, where we vote for published games. According to Webster Dictionary "published" means "to make public; to make known to mankind, or to people in general". When you publish your games only for group (by definition), it is not really "published".

 

If it is a way to attract new people, I find it personally unsuccesfull. Long time ago I tried to explore ABBUC webpage and couldn't find any interesting stuff to download, even old one. I don't like to buy something I can't see. Or to buy promises only. It doesn't matter for me how much it cost (was 30 euro per year, am I right?). More important is I don't want to respect rules I don't agree - for example about your compo. Moreover, I notice that ABBUC is generally resistant to changes in modern world - 400 members and you have the same old webpage design, the same secret-rules, only 3 internal games per year. Have you ever heard about freeware, open source, etc? You decided to keep distance from the world - that's your choice, not mine, so I don't want to be ABBUC member.

 

I prefer to take a part in organisation who is able to evolve or to work on my own. Don't get me wrong - I really respect your work, I was excited by ABBUC intros in 80's, I wanted to be a member long time ago, I admire ABBUC that it is so well organized (i.e. your parties are brilliant!), but I think that ABBUC in present formula is like a mammoth: slowly going to the past... less people, less programs, less enthusiasm. Please change it, because Atari-world without ABBUC will not be the same.

[cas]

Abbuc Mag can you get, if you become a member of abbuc. You´ll get a printed paper magazine with additional discs then 4 times the year. If you create an account at abbuc.de, you can get access to the download section, where the discs of the mags also will be available.

 

 

Hello Kaz,

 

I cannot fully agree here. Please be aware that this is my personal opinion, not an official ABBUC statement

 

your rules say

1. Our competition can enter all 8-bit Atari games published in 2007. It doesn't matter if they are commercial or freeware ones, if they won in other contests or not, if they require 64kB or 1MB of memory, if they require particular extensions, etc. It is only important that they were made generally available between January 1st and December 31st 2007.

 

thus the releases in ABBUC Mag would be commercial releases. Dieter Gretschel who wrote the Master Mind versions pps is referring to is an 80+ year old member of ABBUC, without Internet or PC. Just an Atari. If he chooses to publish only in the ABBUC magazine, it is his decision we must respect. Every author of software can decide to publish a program that is on ABBUC magazin also anywere else, as open source, freeware, public domain or commercially. It is not ABBUCs fault if that is not done.

 

Thus, these games weren't really released . There were released for ABBUC members only. How people can vote for games if they couldn't see these games? If you want to popularize ABBUC programs, you shouldn't keep all your programs in a deep shadow Make them free. Kaz Kompo by definion is open competition, where we vote for published games. According to Webster Dictionary "published" means "to make public; to make known to mankind, or to people in general". When you publish your games only for group (by definition), it is not really "published".

 

Where is then the difference between commercial games and games on ABBUC magazines? A commercial game is also only published for a group, the group of people paying for it. as such, the ABBUC magazine is an commercial offering.

 

If it is a way to attract new people, I find it personally unsuccesfull. Long time ago I tried to explore ABBUC webpage and couldn't find any interesting stuff to download, even old one. I don't like to buy something I can't see. Or to buy promises only. It doesn't matter for me how much it cost (was 30 euro per year, am I right?). More important is I don't want to respect rules I don't agree - for example about your compo. Moreover, I notice that ABBUC is generally resistant to changes in modern world - 400 members and you have the same old webpage design, the same secret-rules, only 3 internal games per year. Have you ever heard about freeware, open source, etc? You decided to keep distance from the world - that's your choice, not mine, so I don't want to be ABBUC member.

 

I prefer to take a part in organisation who is able to evolve or to work on my own. Don't get me wrong - I really respect your work, I was excited by ABBUC intros in 80's, I wanted to be a member long time ago, I admire ABBUC that it is so well organized (i.e. your parties are brilliant!), but I think that ABBUC in present formula is like a mammoth: slowly going to the past... less people, less programs, less enthusiasm. Please change it, because Atari-world without ABBUC will not be the same.

 

The way ABBUC works and how it looks like is the product of the work of its members. Its always easy to criticize an organization from the outside, but to change it, it needs hard work on the inside.

 

As an member of FSF (Free Software Foundation) I try to convince Atari/ABBUC programmers to share information and code more freely. We have heated discussions about that almost each annual meeting. ABBUC is an organization living and being steered from its members, in a democratic fashion.

 

I invite everyone who wants ABBUC to change to join and work for that change. Help creating new CSS/PHP/XHTML (or whatever) code to make the webpage more modern. Help convincing that free software (and hardware) will only benefit the whole ATARI community. Help to make more ABBUC material available in english, polish, spanish language.

 

And I don't see "..less people, less programs, less enthusiasm. ". I'm member of ABBUC since 1986. There are always "..new people, new programs, more fun" at ABBUC in the last 21 years for me. There are people leaving ABBUC each quarter, but at the same time about the same amount of people join. ABBUC keeps it's membership level at about 400 members for about 15 years now. It cannot be _all_ wrong then.

 

Carsten

Edited January 2, 2008 by cas

[Heaven/TQA]

Carsten, well said but there are points in both views.

 

I am member since, well...can not remember but could be around end of 80s... or 1991 latest (as there was my first intro published).

 

If I want to release my stuff on Abbuc Disc...it's my personal decision... if I want to made it public then again... When I am finishing Beyond Evil (Heaven touching woood...) I might enter the Abbuc software contest 2008...and if so... I am sticking to that rules.

 

I personally don't look into the 5,25 discs I got every quarter but I like the nostalgica with them... I haven't hooked up my 1050 so since for years I am asking for having ATRs, too... but not 3 months after release... so there are still issues I would like to change at Abbuc but as Carsten pointed out... Abbuc is changing since existing... and I personally find Abbuc more active than ever... with PR, Hardware releases, Books, etc...

[+Philsan]

Dieter Gretschel who wrote the Master Mind versions pps is referring to is an 80+ year old member of ABBUC, without Internet or PC. Just an Atari.

My respect for this member.

Can you send him my regards?

[cas]

Dieter Gretschel who wrote the Master Mind versions pps is referring to is an 80+ year old member of ABBUC, without Internet or PC. Just an Atari.

My respect for this member.

Can you send him my regards?

 

Hi Philsan

 

I only see him once a year. And without him having Internet, I cannot send an E-Mail.

 

Here is a picture of Dieter (aka "Old Men Tower") presenting the two Master-Mind versions at Fujiama Party 2007

 

Carsten

[Allas]

Great Picture. Greetings and all my respect to Dieter.

I hope some day all atarians could enjoy the Master-Mind versions.

[Bunsen]

If somebody of you would send some kind words to Dieter, we can collect it here and then I will send it via snail mail.

Perhaps send him some words, your name, your country you live in and a question if he (or me or cas instead of him) could publish his programs here in the forum.

 

Sorry for kind of capturing your thread, Kaz.

[cas]

If somebody of you would send some kind words to Dieter, we can collect it here and then I will send it via snail mail.

Perhaps send him some words, your name, your country you live in and a question if he (or me or cas instead of him) could publish his programs here in the forum.

 

Sorry for kind of capturing your thread, Kaz.

 

Also we might want to ask Dieter if he likes to translate the programs in english (or if we are allowed to do a translation).

 

I'm sure he will be happy about the interest in his programming.

 

Carsten

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

If somebody of you would send some kind words to Dieter, we can collect it here and then I will send it via snail mail. Perhaps send him some words, your name, your country you live in and a question if he (or me or cas instead of him) could publish his programs here in the forum. Sorry for kind of capturing your thread, Kaz.

 

No problem at all. I would like to send few words of great respect to Dieter as well. That is amazing story by the way! Probably the oldest ACTIVE Atari programmer in the world! Can somebody interview him? Can you ask my questions? For example when he started learn programming? When he wrote the first program and what it was? Some of you know that I'm fascinating by history of Atari people (for example my interview with one the oldest Atari person in Poland here, so I could translate this interview into Polish to popularize knowledge about ABBUC

 

And let's go back to discussion about ABBUC rules. Carsten wrote:

 

thus the releases in ABBUC Mag would be commercial releases. (...) Where is then the difference between commercial games and games on ABBUC magazines?"

 

But ABBUC doesn't work as a shop, where I can buy a program. Which shop force you to be a member of any organisation? Or to respect a set of extra rules you even don't know? Don't forget I'm not German but ABBUC is registered in Germany and restricted by German law.

 

A commercial game is also only published for a group, the group of people paying for it. as such, the ABBUC magazine is an commercial offering.

 

I expected this argument . Thus my question is: can I buy this program separately? I don't want to be a member of ABBUC, but I want to buy Dieter's games. And going to the point: I will put both games to my list, that is aligned with rules of Kaz Kompo. Other question is what chances these games have in compo, when only ABBUC member saw them?

 

Dieter Gretschel who wrote the Master Mind versions pps is referring to is an 80+ year old member of ABBUC, without Internet or PC. Just an Atari. If he chooses to publish only in the ABBUC magazine, it is his decision we must respect.

 

That is the point I am talking about. ABBUC is closed. What is coming in is not coming out. You have so brilliant member, worth to popularize in the world and who knows about? Would we know about him without our discussion about ABBUC not-fit-modern-world? Why this person should be known only for other ABBUC members?

 

Every author of software can decide to publish a program that is on ABBUC magazin also anywere else, as open source, freeware, public domain or commercially. It is not ABBUCs fault if that is not done.

 

1. It is hard to believe for me that Dieter decided to keep his programs in secret or to get money for that (commercial release) or release them only for ABBUC members. I quess he shown high loyalty to ABBUC (as an ABBUC member) and decided to publish his program in ABBUC magazine. If ABBUC magazine would be available to download for everyone, he still would publish there. Am I wrong? Can you ask him about?

 

2. I don't think that example of person who is not using internet or modern computers is a good example that ABBUC is ready for evolution and changes.

 

Its always easy to criticize an organization from the outside, but to change it, it needs hard work on the inside.

 

It wasn't easy for me to critize ABBUC rules, because I know that most of people wil be angry and I will get a lot of negative feedback. It is better and easier to stay quiet. But I still belive that ABBUC can change itself (a little bit) and I hope our discussion isn't pointless. I'm sure ABBUC members will not accept all my cyber-anarchistic ideas, but at least one of them?

 

As an member of FSF (Free Software Foundation) I try to convince Atari/ABBUC programmers to share information and code more freely.

 

1. When did you start convince ABBUC programmers (FSF started in 1985)? And what results do you have now? Why ABBUC members, who are not programmers, decide how ABBUC programmers should release their programs (you vote on your meetings about)?

 

2. There aren't any Atari democratic bodies, fundations, clubs in Poland. But we have free games directly from programmers, free software directly from authors, sources available for everyone directly from creators.

 

Help convincing that free software (and hardware) will only benefit the whole ATARI community.

 

Yes! That the most important point and I try to do it here. Also by Kaz Kompo.

 

Help to make more ABBUC material available in english, polish, spanish language.

 

I did, when ABBUC told he needed a help (I translated invitation movie for JHV meeting). I spent a few hours on it and that was okey. If I would be ABBUC member I should say: "no, I can't release my translation. It is only for ABBUC members."

 

It cannot be _all_ wrong then.

 

Of course not Mammoths were nice and had many advantages. Unfortunetly they were not able to adjust themselves to new world

Edited January 2, 2008 by Kaz atari.online.pl

[+Philsan]

I too am sorry to interrupt this interesting thread but I want to send this message to Dieter:

 

Hi.

I'm Filippo (nickname Philsan) from Switzerland (Ticino).

Unfortunately I don't speak German but I'm sure your friends of ABBUC will translate my words.

I am glad to have known of you.

I, and I think all forum members, hope to reach your (Atari) age programming!

I also hope that our machines will continue to work!

A big "ciao".

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well folks,

I can understand the many discussions about Abbuc (its rules, etc.), but in the end we must not forget:

- Abbuc is a registered club (registered by german law, which has pos. and neg. effects)

- Abbuc lives with and from its members (if no-one writes an article or a program, there is no Abbuc magazine)

- as a club we are closed (and must be closed) somehow to non-club members, thats normal for a club !

 

And err, allthough it sounds very sad there is one more important thing:

To become an Abbuc member you have to pay money and fill in + sign some kind of contact-form or contract (thats also normal for most clubs). In return you get a paper magazine and a disk magazine filled with articles, software, etc. As said before: the members pay money, so why should other Atarians (non Abbuc members) get the magazines, etc. for free ?!? And furthermore, Abbuc does a contest and spends money for it, this is money from Abbuc or better from Abbuc club members !! So why should other Atarians (that are not Abbuc members) get all the contest programs for free ?!? And that`s why Abbuc as a club is closed - it is the money paid by its members to publish, arrange, buy, ... certain things for the club and all its club members...

 

Well, if all things which Abbuc does for its members would be freely available in the internet for everyone [e.g. to download, to read, etc.] then Abbuc as a club would become more or less redundant. And thats why Abbuc must protect itself. If there would be no advantage of being a club member of Abbuc, then why should anyone pay money for being a member ?!? Of course Abbuc is old and somehow antiquated, but its the job of its members to make Abbuc do some changes. Alas, not only Abbuc, but also its members are getting older and older and err, with 400 club members its not quite easy to arrange changes in some way or another... But maybe the small changes are (or the conservative behaviour of Abbuc is) the reason, why this club is still alive, while most other Atari clubs in the world are gone... Just my opinion - Andreas Koch.

 

P.S.: You cannot buy a certain magazine-program at Abbuc, because Abbuc must not sell them individually, like commercial programs (as a club, it would not be allowed to do so). But you can get the program(s) simply by buying a certain club-magazine, which contains that program... That sounds like nonsense, but not for the german jurists and lawyers...

 

2nd P.S.: Hopefully we can get back now to the original topic: vote for the Kaz Kompo 2007...

[Bunsen]

I already have written it before: I will write a letter to Dieter with all your words (Allas, Philsan, Kaz,...). And if you have questions (Interview), I am sure he will write back to answer your questions.

 

Kaz, first I was upset about your words against ABBUC. But now I appreciate your efforts to explain yourself and your thoughts about ABBUC. In former years some club members sensed aversions against the ABBUC especially from Poland. But nobody explained, what's the point of criticism. This time was the first time we heard some clear words, thanks for that. I think many club members will think about it - many of the members of the ABBUC read this forum.

 

We all have the same aim: to keep the atari and atari scene alive. But the more people, all the more ways to reach the aim. One way is to support programmers and developers with a small aid money. The ABBUC decided to keep this way. In the ABBUC Software Contest the club members spend their club fees to support, not to buy things. The only benefit for members is that they get the programs a few weeks (days?) before the rest of the world. I think that is not so much worth to blame the ABBUC for contest rules.

 

Since some years there are some efforts in the ABBUC to provide english contents and make the club more international. Also there are some members who want to open the ABBUC more and provide more contents for everyone. But other members could think (?): Why pay club fees when I can get all the contents (magazine, diskmag, software, support, and so on) for free?

 

As you mentioned, the ABBUC is registered in Germany and is restricted (?) by german law. That means for example it is illegal to provide downloads of computergames, if they are not tested by the authorities ("BPjM - Bundesprüfstelle jugendgefährdender Medien" - http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bmfsfj/gen...dienschutz.html ) to protect the youth from violence, sexism, nazism and crime.

 

And, Kaz, your "club" is your language. The whole atari world knows your homepage atari.online.pl and is excluded from interesting information because the lack of knowing your language

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

And if you have questions (Interview), I am sure he will write back to answer your questions.

 

Perfect, I have a lot of questions. When he has bought his first Atari, what model? Why he decided to buy Atari? Why he is still programming Atari? Can he release these games in English? What does he plan to do next (on Atari)? How long he spend working on one game? What is the language he is programming in? How long he is an ABBUC member? What kind of games and utils he likes, what his favourite game is? What is exactly his birth date? (maybe he should be in the Guinnes Book as the oldest game creator in the world?). Why he is not using internet and modern computer?

 

In former years some club members sensed aversions against the ABBUC especially from Poland. But nobody explained, what's the point of criticism. This time was the first time we heard some clear words, thanks for that. I think many club members will think about it - many of the members of the ABBUC read this forum.

 

Bunsen, I'm happy that you are listening what I'm talking about and we are not keeping focus on emotions, which are natural in this situation. What can I say? I don't represent any Atarians from Poland. I represent myself and my private point of view. However, I also heard many criticism about ABBUC from other Polish people and their mostly based on results of ABBUC members activity we CAN OBSERVE. We don't really know what is inside, but we see results of your activity. And what we can observe? Very old webpage. One or three game per year from ABBUC members in their own internal competion. No download, even for very old production. No changes of compo rules for years (small changes under pressure of few people inside in last two years?), unclear rules (I discussed about with Andreas Koch last year) of program attendance. Many times I wanted to go to roots of German Atari-scene. ABBUC should popularize that. Why you are not doing that? We can't see old German intros, demos, etc. For example Fandal, who is Czech guy, and who is collecting and presenting all scene-related products is doing more for you roots than ABBUC. That is a shame in my opinion.

 

We all have the same aim: to keep the atari and atari scene alive. But the more people, all the more ways to reach the aim. One way is to support programmers and developers with a small aid money. The ABBUC decided to keep this way.

 

I agree with your words about our aim, so that is the reason why I created Kaz Kompo in open formula. ABBUC is internal compo (I know that, I respect it, I wrote about in my article), so it shouldn't be only compo we have in the world.

 

The only benefit for members is that they get the programs a few weeks (days?) before the rest of the world. I think that is not so much worth to blame the ABBUC for contest rules.

 

If is only a temporary benefit, why I can download ABBUC stuff from, for example 1988? Why I can't download stuff from ABBUC contest from 2006? Do you really think that it giving ABBUC power and popularity, when people avoid ABBUC webpage to download it free from other sites?

 

The rest of world giving you their programs at the same time when the rest of the world has it. ABBUC members can play all games developed by non-members and using their hard work. Without any money. That is natural, because we all are working for Atari community. Why ABBUC members can't share _more_ with the rest of the world?

 

Since some years there are some efforts in the ABBUC to provide english contents and make the club more international. Also there are some members who want to open the ABBUC more and provide more contents for everyone.

 

I hope I gave few arguments to these people

 

But other members could think (?): Why pay club fees when I can get all the contents (magazine, diskmag, software, support, and so on) for free?

 

Nobody said: everything. And nobody said: immediately. That's really clear that members should get something more than non-members. But keeping everything and forever in secret is senseless.

 

As you mentioned, the ABBUC is registered in Germany and is restricted (?) by german law. That means for example it is illegal to provide downloads of computergames, if they are not tested by the authorities ("BPjM - Bundesprüfstelle jugendgefährdender Medien").

 

This is kind of restriction. And you have more as far as I know.

 

And, Kaz, your "club" is your language. The whole atari world knows your homepage atari.online.pl and is excluded from interesting information because the lack of knowing your language

 

That is true. But I don't release Atari programs under condition that you have to pay me money or to read my article I also don't try to stop people to download files from my webpage and publish them on their sites or to copy my words/articles/whatever. Atarians from Chile download my games database without my permission and I was happy - proposed them to cooperate to update this. This is the highest level of admiration when somebody try to copy you.

 

I hope that my comments did not sound aggresive. If so, blame my (poor) English!

[Heaven/TQA]

@ Bunsen

 

why not simply call him to get a quick permission regarding the software?

 

@ Abbuc Members

 

I think I should get more involved in the internals as I see many valid points to discuss like why are the mag discs not available as ATRs for everyone to download or the other stuff (f.e. magazine 001-087 (end of 2006). And as I haven't found time to travel to the JHV is there any other meeting where ABBUC internals can be discussed?

 

@ Fandal

 

I am sure you would like to collect all the Intros...

 

what about this from October 2007 Mag?

[pepax]

As you mentioned, the ABBUC is registered in Germany and is restricted (?) by german law. That means for example it is illegal to provide downloads of computergames, if they are not tested by the authorities ("BPjM - Bundesprüfstelle jugendgefährdender Medien" - http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bmfsfj/gen...dienschutz.html ) to protect the youth from violence, sexism, nazism and crime.

 

I'm no lawyer and I don't even speak German but it seems to me that this is the crucial piece of information and also the answer to more than one of Kaz's questions/objections. Am I wrong?

Not that it would make sense to do so but just out of curiosity: how much do such tests cost?

[carmel_andrews]

Whilst I am not familiar with German Law...I am assuming or guessing that any software published by abbuc (which i do remember hearing about way bk when) is Public Domain as abbuc was essentially a user group

 

Seeming as though there are German Members of Atariage that are also affiliated to Abbuc, why don't those member's get Wolfgang/Dieter's permission to re-issue or re-publish the software (with non german translation rights) and since there's very little A8 stuff sold via Atariage, to get Albert & co to stock the Abbuc back catalog

 

I do recall that you can download most if not all my user groups Disk software (LACE/London Atari Computer Enthusiasts) it was also included as part of the original 'PoolDisk' (if you remember that)..I think Pooldisk was done by Bo Shrerrs

 

I would be very interested in the Abbuc Hardware line (as they seemed to excel in both soft/hardware)

 

I'll vote for the Kaz Kompo once i've downloaded the competition entires (incl crownland, which i'm assuming i've the finished version)

Edited January 3, 2008 by carmel_andrews

[Bunsen]

Bunsen, I'm happy that you are listening what I'm talking about and we are not keeping focus on emotions, which are natural in this situation. What can I say? I don't represent any Atarians from Poland. I represent myself and my private point of view. However, I also heard many criticism about ABBUC from other Polish people and their mostly based on results of ABBUC members activity we CAN OBSERVE. We don't really know what is inside, but we see results of your activity. And what we can observe? Very old webpage. One or three game per year from ABBUC members in their own internal competion. No download, even for very old production. No changes of compo rules for years (small changes under pressure of few people inside in last two years?), unclear rules (I discussed about with Andreas Koch last year) of program attendance. Many times I wanted to go to roots of German Atari-scene. ABBUC should popularize that. Why you are not doing that? We can't see old German intros, demos, etc. For example Fandal, who is Czech guy, and who is collecting and presenting all scene-related products is doing more for you roots than ABBUC. That is a shame in my opinion.

 

Kaz, we're discussing as two persons, one polish atari user and one german atari user and abbuc member. You don't represent all polish atarians and I don't represent all german atarians or all ABBUC members. Perhaps you are right when you say the representation of the ABBUC to outside can be better. But I think there are many members that are thinking: It's enough for me to get four times a year a mag and a discmag, or to go to some meetings (I am a member of the regional branch of the abbuc called RENO, that means REgional group NOrth, we meet four times a year and it's reeaally fun http://andymanone.dyndns.org/reno/071006.html - next meeting is saturday ).

My opinion is: being in a club means to work (work is not the right word, better: be active) for the club to keep it alive. Probably there are too less people thinking like me in the ABBUC? My active part in the club is to write a few articles (game reviews) for the paper mag.

 

I think in the future you won't find any downloads on the official abbuc homepage (reasons were said already). But it's not very hard to find really ALL content of the ABBUC in the internet (demos for example: http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~sgl/atari/...index_php3.html )

 

 

I agree with your words about our aim, so that is the reason why I created Kaz Kompo in open formula. ABBUC is internal compo (I know that, I respect it, I wrote about in my article), so it shouldn't be only compo we have in the world.

 

What do you mean with internal compo? ABBUC contest is open for all. But to publish the programs (articles, ... also) is the case of the authors. Nobody says it is not allowed to publish your things where you want. ABBUC can't determine about the rights of the authors (copyright).

Ofcourse there is nothing to say about another contest. But why so offend against the ABBUC (every third word in your text was ABBUC, I see you changed it )?

 

 

 

This is kind of restriction. And you have more as far as I know.

 

It hinders a small group of people (retro gamers) but protects majority of the population (children).

 

That is true. But I don't release Atari programs under condition that you have to pay me money or to read my article

 

Probably I would pay for interesting articles (if I could read them ). And I do so. Every second month I buy the german magazine *RETRO* http://www.retromagazin.eu/ .

 

 

I also don't try to stop people to download files from my webpage and publish them on their sites

 

Are you the owner of the files?

 

or to copy my words/articles/whatever.

 

You can determine about your words/articles/whatever and I can determine about my stuff. But I can't determine about other people (or abbuc members) programs/words/articles/whatever.

 

I hope that my comments did not sound aggresive. If so, blame my (poor) English!

 

No, it did not . And my English is poorer than yours.

[Bunsen]

@ Bunsen

 

why not simply call him to get a quick permission regarding the software?

 

Yes, why not? Call him if you want, you will find him at telefonbuch.de (He is living in Berlin).

 

@ Abbuc Members

 

I think I should get more involved in the internals as I see many valid points to discuss like why are the mag discs not available as ATRs for everyone to download or the other stuff (f.e. magazine 001-087 (end of 2006). And as I haven't found time to travel to the JHV is there any other meeting where ABBUC internals can be discussed?

 

There is a special forum for internals on the homepage (*Spezialthemen*). It is hidden. You must send the webmaster an email to get access.

[cas]

Whilst I am not familiar with German Law...I am assuming or guessing that any software published by abbuc (which i do remember hearing about way bk when) is Public Domain as abbuc was essentially a user group

 

Seeming as though there are German Members of Atariage that are also affiliated to Abbuc, why don't those member's get Wolfgang/Dieter's permission to re-issue or re-publish the software (with non german translation rights) and since there's very little A8 stuff sold via Atariage, to get Albert & co to stock the Abbuc back catalog

 

I do recall that you can download most if not all my user groups Disk software (LACE/London Atari Computer Enthusiasts) it was also included as part of the original 'PoolDisk' (if you remember that)..I think Pooldisk was done by Bo Shrerrs

 

I would be very interested in the Abbuc Hardware line (as they seemed to excel in both soft/hardware)

 

I'll vote for the Kaz Kompo once i've downloaded the competition entires (incl crownland, which i'm assuming i've the finished version)

 

This is one misconception. ABBUC does not own the rights. The Authors of Software and Articles in the ABBUC Magazin grant ABBUC the non-exclusive right to publish the Software or Article for its Users. ABBUC does not own the right to publish the software on the Magazine disc or Articles to anyone on the Internet.

 

In the past, ABBUC has bought Licenses of commercial Software to distribute that software for free among ABBUC members. But that software is still commercial, and sometimes even sold commercially outside ABBUC today.

 

If possible ABBUC tries to acquire an unlimited right to the Software, and publishes that software then into the public domain if possible (free for everyone). This happened for example with Turbo-DOS. Charlie Chaplin (the master mind of software) has probably more examples of this.

 

But the right to publish outside ABBUC is mostly held by the authors of the Software and Articles. It is the decision of these Authors to make the Software or Articles free for everyone, for example by publishing it on the Internet.

 

We at ABBUC can only encourage the Authors to do so. But ABBUC has not the publishing rights outside the ABBUC member base, so ABBUC cannot decide on this and cannot make that Software available without permission from the Author.

 

German Law and the ("BPjM - Bundesprüfstelle jugendgefährdender Medien") is an other issue. It's a law with good intentions but done by politicians that don't know how the Internet works.

 

The Law mandates that every software download must either be checked for adult content and labeled accordingly (price, 250-1500 € per disk) or it must be ensured that only adult people over 18years can access the (unlabeled and unchecked) software. Because ABBUC cannot pay the 250-1500 € per Disk, we allow download only for members (this is also true for the Public Domain downloads from the ABBUC site for the same reason).

 

I think it would be a good Idea to start an FAQ in english about ABBUC to bring a little light into some hard to understand decisions from ABBUC side.

Edited January 3, 2008 by cas