Which media do you think lasts longer, tape or disk?

[Ross PK]

I'm talking about usage.

 

I'd also like to know the answer as far as them not being used, like in storage.

 

Thanks.

[classics]

Tapes and disks can both last in storage, it just depends on the formulation of the media.

 

Tapes by design stretch and wear out a little every time they are used, so they have a very finite usage life. Disks won't last forever either but hold up much better than tapes to constant use.

 

Steve

[Fröhn]

Disks with teflon sealed surface last very long.

[Rybags]

I'd say disks.

 

With tape you have the problem of the tape being wound around itself.

 

Factors like heat and humidity can cause all sorts of problems, especially with high speed reel to reel tapes as were used on larger computer systems.

 

I've got floppies that are 25 years old and still going. As for tapes, well I don't bother with them because even in the old days some would go bad in a matter of months.

 

To expand on that, I'd rate home computer media reliability in my experience (worst to best):

 

CD-R

Audio type cassette tape

3.5 inch floppy

DVD-R

5.25 inch floppy

 

"In the day" I found 3.5 inch floppies to be pretty good, but I've found them to be very unreliable once they've been sitting around for a few years.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Rybags

[Urchlay]

Commercially mastered (factory-recorded) tape software seems to survive a lot longer than user-recorded tapes... I've got a box of maybe 70 or 80 user-recorded tapes someone gave me, and almost none of them work with any of my 3 tape drives, but the 3 or 4 originals I have will load fine.

 

I'd have to say disks last better than tapes... most of my disks still work, even though they're all over 20 years old and weren't stored in what you'd call optimum conditions.

[+Psionic]

Factors like heat and humidity can cause all sorts of problems, especially with high speed reel to reel tapes as were used on larger computer systems.

Indeed...tapes are a nightmare, especially if not stored properly. Either way, I'd go with disks.

[Ross PK]

I remember someone saying about getting their disks out of storage and they didn't work. They'd been there for 20 years or something.

 

That's what made me wonder.

 

The reason why I'm asking is because there's a copy of Mr Robot And His Robot Factory on disc for really cheap on ebay. I was wondering whether I should buy it even though I don't have a disk drive at the moment or wait for the tape version to come up.

 

But actually I don't really think I care about getting it now, even though I enjoyed it when I was younger it doesn't really seem like something that I'd enjoy that much today.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Ross PK

[doctorclu]

To expand on that, I'd rate home computer media reliability in my experience (worst to best):

 

CD-R

Audio type cassette tape

3.5 inch floppy

DVD-R

5.25 inch floppy

 

Worst to best eh?

 

The CD-R is the worst? Why is that?

 

Strangely think 3.5 inch floppies are the worst. They seem to fail quicker, in my experience, than 5.25 inch floppies.

 

I think it would be nice if they made a media, like metal records, that you could store the MOST important files too. Not cheap, but we are talking long time storage.

 

Or you know those blocks of crystal that you can put an image in cut out by laser... be cool if you could store files on those by laser reference.

 

Just something that would not neccessarily be cheap, but could save files for hundreds of years.

[Rybags]

Going by media that just fails early in life, CDs got it easily for me.

 

But, the early CD writers were pretty unreliable at best anyway.

 

As for 5.25 floppies - I've probably thrown away less than 20 ever.

[+remowilliams]

Strangely think 3.5 inch floppies are the worst. They seem to fail quicker, in my experience, than 5.25 inch floppies.

That's because the quality of modern 3.5" disks (and mechs for that matter) is shit. The first HD 3.5" disks lasted quite some time, the ones you buy now get corrupted carrying them from one room to another.

 

I have many many old 5.25" disks that are still fine. I know they can't last forever, but I am amazed at their longevity. I have two in particular that are a testament to the quality of their time. One I actually closed in my locker in high school and bent it at a 90 degree angle, the other (from the same period) had something spilled all over it and I removed the media from the sleeve, washed it, let it dry and put it into another clean sleeve. Both of them still work fine.

[jaybird3rd]

That's because the quality of modern 3.5" disks (and mechs for that matter) is shit. The first HD 3.5" disks lasted quite some time, the ones you buy now get corrupted carrying them from one room to another.

 

I have many many old 5.25" disks that are still fine. I know they can't last forever, but I am amazed at their longevity. I have two in particular that are a testament to the quality of their time. One I actually closed in my locker in high school and bent it at a 90 degree angle, the other (from the same period) had something spilled all over it and I removed the media from the sleeve, washed it, let it dry and put it into another clean sleeve. Both of them still work fine.

I agree. 5.25-inch floppy drives were something like $300 peripherals when they were first released, whereas modern 3.5-inch floppy drive mechs are $10 parts that are mostly made of plastic. There's no way they could have reduced costs that much without making some serious compromises in quality. The quality of the media has degraded, too, to the point where modern floppies aren't any good for more than one or two uses anymore. However, I still have floppies that I formatted in my trusty old Atari 1050 diskette drive in 1983, and they still work fine. So does the 1050.

[andylama]

Going by media that just fails early in life, CDs got it easily for me.

 

But, the early CD writers were pretty unreliable at best anyway.

 

As for 5.25 floppies - I've probably thrown away less than 20 ever.

 

When I was still actively using 3.5" floppies, I'd throw away about 20 per month.

 

That's one medium I don't miss at all.

 

I've only had two or three CD-Rs 'go bad' ever, and even then, I suspect it was the fault of the no-name off-brand media I used.

 

Your mileage may vary---well it sounds like it has.

[thomasholzer]

I got original audio tapes from 1972 - 1980 and they work PEREFCT.

[Ross PK]

I got original audio tapes from 1972 - 1980 and they work PEREFCT.

 

My oldest audio tape is from 1992, and the recording on it is from 1992 too. It still works but obviously from playing it a lot over th years, the sound quality has degraded. This is why I've ripped it onto my PC and burnt it to CD for preservation, I even uploaded it onto Youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=socGRGHcQ7s I

 

It'll never go down in quality now no matter how many times I play it on those mediums.

 

I think tapes would probably last near enough forever come to think of it as long as they're put away and not played.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Ross PK

[deathtrappomegranate]

All magnetic media, of course, are subject to degradation over time. Likewise anything with moving parts. Cartridges are pretty stable but not immune to problems. EPROM carts are much more vulnerable then ROM versions.

 

This is one of the main reasons for the existence of Atarimania. We're tying to preserve all this stuff before it's lost forever.

 

Mr Robot and His Robot Factory (on cassette) has been imaged: http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?...VERSION_ID=6826

 

If you just want to play the game on a real Atari you can use a SIO2PC device, or just use the CAS2WAV program to make an audio file that you record to tape. Of course, it's always better to have the real, original game, especially if you're a collector.

 

In fact, I've been surprised at just how many software cassettes still work after all this time. Those that fail are often recorded on very cheap tape. Home-recorded cassettes tend to be of poor quality because people often bought the cheapest brands, often recorded over multiple generations of "A Flock of Seagulls" or "Dexy's Midnight Runners", and usually stored their cassettes very badly.

 

I think that there's little to choose between 5.25" floppies and cassettes, as long as the media are of good quality and have been well cared-for.

 

 

<edited for typo>

Edited February 8, 2008 by deathtrappomegranate

[Ross PK]

That's why I'm so glad about the Internet, deathtrap. Not just because we have access to nearly anything for free, but because all the games, scans, rare music, and whatever will be preserved forever.

 

Which otherwise, someday, would end up being lost forever.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Ross PK

[+CharlieChaplin]

Hmm,

I would say stones and rocks last much longer than any other media. Alas, they are not that easy to write to... Anyone have some thousand year old CD`s, DVD`s or disks ?!? I don`t think so - the bigger the available storage space the shorter the lifetime...

 

CD-R

Audio type cassette tape

3.5 inch floppy

DVD-R

5.25 inch floppy

[end quote]

 

Why do you think that DVD-R will last longer than CD-R ?!? Personally I have a lot of Audio-CD`s burned in the 90`s with my single-speed Hifi-CD-Recorder (not a CD-burner on the PC) and they still play very well. But the much newer MP3-DVD-recordings (the same as the audio-recordings by the way) made on the PC with a DVD-burner already have some problems here and there when played back...

 

I keep the CD`s as well as the DVD`s in jewel cases, so it can`t be the storing of the media... When I bought my Hifi-Cd-Recorder I had to pay 1000 german marks, nowadays I get a PC DVD-burner for less than 10% of that price... Still I wish the industry would continue producing Audio-Cd-R`s, alas they don`t... and my Hifi-Cd-Recorder cannot use those 48x or 52x PC-CD-R`s...

 

Speaking of Data-Cd`s and DVD`s... my old data-CD`s (burned on the PC) still read good and without errors... whereas a lot of DVD+-R`s had errors right after burning them (quite often I have to use DVD`s from different manufacturers to get a good burning result)... I never had as many problems reading a self-burned CD, CD-R or CD-RW as I now have with reading a DVD, DVD+-R/RW etc. So for self-burned media I really dislike the DVD... Hopefully Blu-Ray will do it better in the future, but I have my doubts... -Andreas Koch.

[FastRobPlus]

My experience with Atari game collecting is that the tapes I've gotten have had a much higher failure rate versus floppies.

On the other hand, tapes often have copy of the game recorded on both sides, and I have found that typically, at least one side still works.

I have an old insert that came with Automated Simulations games warning that you need to clean/demagnetize you tape heads every 10 plays or risk corrupting your tape. They cited high returns of tapes as the reason for this recommendation. So Epyx’ returns dept. at least felt disks were more reliable.

Edited February 8, 2008 by FastRobPlus

[Curt Vendel]

They appear to be a heck of a lot more durable then anyone could've ever imagined. I've recovered data from TU78's going back to 1977 - now mind you, 9 Track TU78's are designed to be military grade media, but I've had some tapes come to me that have been through over a decade in external lockers going through hot summers, frigid winters and back again over and over. What I find is they tend to sweat and will clog up the transport and read heads on a tape drive during recovery, but after a few passes they are clean and readable. What is horrible is when the tape transport becomes brittle - and you watch the media flying off of the tape and into oblivion, thats just a heartbreaker. Disks seem equally durable... when I found that Atari 800 Cloak and Dagger disk bent into an "L" shape I didn't think there was a chance in h*ll of recovering the data, put it under a stack of over 10 thick text books and waited a week, came back, slide it into an 810 with an 800 all setup with SIO2PC to immediately read and save the contents - everything copied perfect.

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

Tapes and disks can both last in storage, it just depends on the formulation of the media.

 

Tapes by design stretch and wear out a little every time they are used, so they have a very finite usage life. Disks won't last forever either but hold up much better than tapes to constant use.

 

Steve

[Ross PK]

My experience with Atari game collecting is that the tapes I've gotten have had a much higher failure rate versus floppies.

On the other hand, tapes often have copy of the game recorded on both sides, and I have found that typically, at least one side still works.

I have an old insert that came with Automated Simulations games warning that you need to clean/demagnetize you tape heads every 10 plays or risk corrupting your tape. They cited high returns of tapes as the reason for this recommendation. So Epyx’ returns dept. at least felt disks were more reliable.

 

I got a similar notice that came with Jumpan, by Epyx.

[Ross PK]

They appear to be a heck of a lot more durable then anyone could've ever imagined. I've recovered data from TU78's going back to 1977 - now mind you, 9 Track TU78's are designed to be military grade media, but I've had some tapes come to me that have been through over a decade in external lockers going through hot summers, frigid winters and back again over and over. What I find is they tend to sweat and will clog up the transport and read heads on a tape drive during recovery, but after a few passes they are clean and readable. What is horrible is when the tape transport becomes brittle - and you watch the media flying off of the tape and into oblivion, thats just a heartbreaker. Disks seem equally durable... when I found that Atari 800 Cloak and Dagger disk bent into an "L" shape I didn't think there was a chance in h*ll of recovering the data, put it under a stack of over 10 thick text books and waited a week, came back, slide it into an 810 with an 800 all setup with SIO2PC to immediately read and save the contents - everything copied perfect.

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

Tapes and disks can both last in storage, it just depends on the formulation of the media.

 

Tapes by design stretch and wear out a little every time they are used, so they have a very finite usage life. Disks won't last forever either but hold up much better than tapes to constant use.

 

Steve

 

Was it still bent quite a bit or totally flat after having it under some books for a week?

[mimo]

I remember someone saying about getting their disks out of storage and they didn't work. They'd been there for 20 years or something.

 

That's what made me wonder.

 

The reason why I'm asking is because there's a copy of Mr Robot And His Robot Factory on disc for really cheap on ebay. I was wondering whether I should buy it even though I don't have a disk drive at the moment or wait for the tape version to come up.

 

But actually I don't really think I care about getting it now, even though I enjoyed it when I was younger it doesn't really seem like something that I'd enjoy that much today.

Unless you are hell bent on having lots of software and peripherals around, SIO2SD is an excellent solution to all the clutter, for little more than the cost of a 1050 and some discs.

[Marius]

With special interest I did read this thread. Why? Because yesterday I found out all of my 5.25" inch disks are still working, and they appear to be in a VERY good condition.

 

I think my disks will last longer as my 1050 diskdrive.

 

I also have good experience with Tapes, but as said ... some tapes used were cheap, and those fail. It also depends on the fact if the tape was rewind completely to the lead-in or not.

 

5.25" disks are more reliable because the binary data is stored in a very non-economic way. The fysical bits do have a big size on those disks. (Look at the size of the writing part of the read and write head in a 1050! (compared to other media)

 

Tapes has another problem. It does not only hold the binary code, but a TRANSLATED to AUDIO binary code. That makes it more vulnerable. A little problem in the audio means the translation back to binary data can't be done. Also (already said)... the synchronisation is a problem on some tapes, because the tape is stretched up, so the original recorded sound track, can't be reproduced like the original was.

 

Finally:

 

When I got my hands on my First CD-writer, i was very excited. I thought I had found a solution for unreliable media. How wrong was I. I have already burned CD-Roms around 6 years old, that has failures! It depends on the used brand, but even CD-Roms from the same brand seem to differ!!!

 

So I am more excited about 5.25" disks.... I never was, but since yesterday I love it. It is far more reliable as I ever thought.

 

But then the question again: how long will my 1050's last... and what if they are all broken.

Are there still good/better alternatives (mechanical 5.25" drives!) available for atari 8bit?

 

Thanks

Marius

[supercat]

Tapes has another problem. It does not only hold the binary code, but a TRANSLATED to AUDIO binary code. That makes it more vulnerable. A little problem in the audio means the translation back to binary data can't be done. Also (already said)... the synchronisation is a problem on some tapes, because the tape is stretched up, so the original recorded sound track, can't be reproduced like the original was.

 

Depending upon the exact encoding method, audio could actually have some advantages for longevity, if the tape were played into a PC and analyzed. No cassette-based microcomputer that I know of made any effort to attempt data recovery by trying various detection thresholds on the signal until one worked, but a modern PC could do that with no problem.

[Ross PK]

I remember someone saying about getting their disks out of storage and they didn't work. They'd been there for 20 years or something.

 

That's what made me wonder.

 

The reason why I'm asking is because there's a copy of Mr Robot And His Robot Factory on disc for really cheap on ebay. I was wondering whether I should buy it even though I don't have a disk drive at the moment or wait for the tape version to come up.

 

But actually I don't really think I care about getting it now, even though I enjoyed it when I was younger it doesn't really seem like something that I'd enjoy that much today.

Unless you are hell bent on having lots of software and peripherals around, SIO2SD is an excellent solution to all the clutter, for little more than the cost of a 1050 and some discs.

 

I'd rather have the originals. If I'm not going to do that then I may as well just use emulation instead.