NES vs 7800

[DracIsBack]

Not only is the 7800 version not even half as good (and I don't think anyone will argue that), it also happens to be due to 7800's limitations.

 

Really? So you're saying that the 7800 version of Double Dragon is the best it can possibly be and that the fact that Imagineering (the C- dev house behind the likes of FIGHT NIGHT, TOUCHDOWN FOOTBALL and SUPER HUEY) being not a great developer had nothing to do with it? Or the fact that the game was so rushed that the Abobos were lifted clean out of "Title Match Wrestling" had nothing to do with it? Or the fact that it was a 128K cartridge instead of 256K?

 

Huh. You guys argue that 7800 games should only be compared with NES games running on stock hardware. I do just that with Mario Bros., and then you say 7800 Mario Bros. shouldn't be compared because it's not programmed the best it can be (or at least, that's what it sounds like)?

 

First off, I actually don't dispute that there are some NES strengths.

 

That said, there is a legit complaint that the 7800 was not pushed as it should have been.

 

Issue one: Nintendo locked up the A+ developers with their contracts. They weren't making 7800 games because they were bound to make NES games first.

 

Issue two: Jack Tramiel was cheap when it came to paying for heavy development of 7800 games, 7800 cartridges or A+ talent. There's plenty of examples of this: Winter Games and Summer Games being reduced to 128K from 256K. Time Lords getting cancelled because they didn't want to build a 4 megabit cart with a battery backup. The dev docs telling developers they couldn't use extra memory unless the Tramiels themselves offered it in writing. GCC telling commenting that Jack wanted games but didn't want to pay any money for them. Or cheap-ass dev houses like Ibid inc. getting handed contracts to do half-ass conversions like Karateka which should have been wayyy better.

 

Etc. etc. etc.

 

 

I just get sick and tired of GroovyBee's constant assertions that how 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system

 

When has he said that? Only thing I've seen him say is that the 7800 is under-estimated and wasn't pushed back in the day. And I agree with him ... see above.

 

He just can't accept that NES does indeed have strengths that 7800 doesn't

 

There's a difference between saying "the NES has no strengths over the 7800" and disagreeing that "the 7800 can't pull off something", when you have more experience actually coding the machine in question than most of the commentators. I don't recall GroovyBee ever saying the former. I do recall him saying the latter.

[DracIsBack]

 

Fair point, but I was only thowing it out there because the "lack of resources" argument seems to be the case in so many of Atari's efforts on the 7800, where most of the NES games were done very well and got the most out of the system (although there were some bad-programmed stinkers- just see AVGN ).

 

Here's the way that I like to think about it:

 

If Capcom, Konami, Tradewest, Nintendo and Sega were

 

- all required to make 7800 games

- all allowed to put them on 2-4 megabit cartridges

- able to place staff and development cycles as long as NES and SMS games

- incented to make 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th generation games

- Had good quality dev tools, sample codes and docs

 

 

- How would the 7800 library look?

 

Of course there are technical differences and strengths and weaknesses among the consoles. But that's not all the story.

[Godzilla]

i hardly think mario bros is even a fair comparison, programmed by nintendo who made the original arcade game vs a lowest-bidder port

[ZylonBane]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

 

If your point is that Mario Bros on the NES and 7800 don't actually look like that, well... good luck with that.

[4Ks]

i hardly think mario bros is even a fair comparison, programmed by nintendo who made the original arcade game vs a lowest-bidder port

 

Lowest bidder port? I always thought people liked 7800 Mario Bros.

[4Ks]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

 

I was going to say that! +1 for you!

[+Stephen]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

 

I was going to say that! +1 for you!

Can you use an emulator to compare games on the 7800 to games on the NES

[yell0w_lantern]

It's funny - this thread was actually civilized and informative when it was started...

[ZylonBane]

Can you use an emulator to compare games on the 7800 to games on the NES

Absolutely not. If you try, your computer will explode.

[+Mitch]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

My point being that the quality of the emulator affects the quality of the screenshot. The fact that the 7800 screenshots are zoomed in to make the NES ones look better is icing on the cake.

 

Mitch

[Atarifever]

Can you use an emulator to compare games on the 7800 to games on the NES

Absolutely not. If you try, your computer will explode.

I don't believe that. Zylonbane, please confirm. I couldn't care less how it goes from there.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Atarifever

[prostx23]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

My point being that the quality of the emulator affects the quality of the screenshot. The fact that the 7800 screenshots are zoomed in to make the NES ones look better is icing on the cake.

 

Mitch

 

Those screen shots accurately reflect on how the game looks on each system. The Nintendo version looks better and plays better. I used to own an NES and that game. I like the 7800 version, but it is a bit lacking.

[GroovyBee]

I just get sick and tired of GroovyBee's constant assertions that how 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system

 

Please quote were I've stated that.

 

his incessant talk about how sweet his homebrews are,

 

I have pointed people at all 7800 homebrew authors in the past as examples of how far the 7800 has come.

 

and, most of all, his stubbornness. He just can't accept that NES does indeed have strengths that 7800 doesn't, and he constantly gets into arguments with people about it.

 

Again. Please quote where I've said that the 7800 beats the NES hands down.

 

Sigh... I think I just need to stay out of any and all online arguments for the rest of my life (in particular, arguments about NES/7800/Jaguar). Things always end up like this, and nobody comes out the better for it. I'm going to go play my Prosystem emulator and cool down.

 

Yep! I agree you are best off out of it when your argument for pushing more pixels is a screen shot with a static background and 4 sprites in 4 colours.

[Atarifever]

 

There's a difference between a system not being able to handle a game and a game being poorly programmed.

Yes. Yes there is. Welcome to everyone else's point of view except yours. Now that we are all agreed that it is apples to tuna, let us move on.

[The_Laird]

Here is another good example - Commando

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B76JAp8TNg

 

NES Version

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJFsqDgkLyM

 

7800 Version

 

I think its pretty obvious that the 7800 version has far better use of colour, no flicker like the NES version and the sound is better too.

[Underball]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

My point being that the quality of the emulator affects the quality of the screenshot. The fact that the 7800 screenshots are zoomed in to make the NES ones look better is icing on the cake.

 

Mitch

 

Those screen shots accurately reflect on how the game looks on each system. The Nintendo version looks better and plays better. I used to own an NES and that game. I like the 7800 version, but it is a bit lacking.

Not really. That 7800 screenshot is from an old emulator that doesn't have the correct color palette.

[4Ks]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

My point being that the quality of the emulator affects the quality of the screenshot. The fact that the 7800 screenshots are zoomed in to make the NES ones look better is icing on the cake.

 

Mitch

 

Assuming much? I got those screenshots from GameFAQs.com, and I DIDN'T ZOOM THEM IN. They just happened to be like that. Go look up those screenshots on the website if you don't believe me.

[4Ks]

This is the last I'll say, because my head is hurting from the sheer lunacy of you people (except you, ZylonBane. You rock!).

 

I just get sick and tired of GroovyBee's constant assertions that how 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system

 

Please quote were I've stated that.

 

 

The "Sell me on a 5200" thread, starting here.

 

his incessant talk about how sweet his homebrews are,

 

I have pointed people at all 7800 homebrew authors in the past as examples of how far the 7800 has come.

 

I'm talking about how you go into every "best 7800 games" thread and glorify all your homebrews, instead of just suggesting your favorite old games (which, after all, is what those topics are about).

 

and, most of all, his stubbornness. He just can't accept that NES does indeed have strengths that 7800 doesn't, and he constantly gets into arguments with people about it.

 

Again. Please quote where I've said that the 7800 beats the NES hands down.

 

That's not what I said. I said you just won't accept that there are some things 7800 can't do, and NES can. 7800 can do Robotron, NES can't. NES can do Kirby's Adventure, 7800 can't. It's that simple.

 

Sigh... I think I just need to stay out of any and all online arguments for the rest of my life (in particular, arguments about NES/7800/Jaguar). Things always end up like this, and nobody comes out the better for it. I'm going to go play my Prosystem emulator and cool down.

 

Yep! I agree you are best off out of it when your argument for pushing more pixels is a screen shot with a static background and 4 sprites in 4 colours.

 

Let me get this straight: I can't use GameFAQs screenshots to compare games on the two systems because they don't make 7800 look good? However, Laird can get away with deliberately singling out the games that were badly ported to NES, in an effort to make it look bad. I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or roll my eyes. Maybe I should do them all.

Edited December 22, 2010 by 4Ks

[Metal Ghost]

This is the last I'll say, because my head is hurting from the sheer lunacy of you people (except you, ZylonBane. You rock!).

 

I just get sick and tired of GroovyBee's constant assertions that how 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system

 

Please quote were I've stated that.

 

 

The "Sell me on a 5200" thread, starting here.

 

I just slogged through 3 pages of posts, starting from where the link placed me, and nowhere did I see GB state, either implicitly or explicitly that the 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system. Looked like he was simply arguing a technical point regarding the merits of the 7800 vs the 5200.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Metal Ghost

[toptenmaterial]

Those are emulation screenshots. What's your point?

Yes, those are emulation screenshots. What's YOUR point?

My point being that the quality of the emulator affects the quality of the screenshot. The fact that the 7800 screenshots are zoomed in to make the NES ones look better is icing on the cake.

 

Mitch

yes, especially in regards to responsiveness and control

[DracIsBack]

This is the last I'll say, because my head is hurting from the sheer lunacy of you people

 

That's what you said before, yet the insults and the twistings keep a'comin ...

 

The "Sell me on a 5200" thread, starting here.

 

Sorry. Don't see an explicit or implicit "7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system" comment anywhere. Just discussions about strengths and weaknesses and perceived limitations.

 

That's not what I said. I said you just won't accept that there are some things 7800 can't do, and NES can.

 

1. Where has he said that?

2. Given that he's coded the thing (extensively) and you haven't, why are you the judge on what the 7800 can or can't do?

 

NES can do Kirby's Adventure, 7800 can't. It's that simple.

 

First, as was mentioned earlier, the stock NES can't do Kirby's Adventure either. It uses additional hardware to pull it off.

 

Second, tell me about your own coding experience on the 7800.

 

Laird can get away with deliberately singling out the games that were badly ported to NES, in an effort to make it look bad.

 

Seems to me, you did the exact same thing with Double Dragon ...

[Underball]

I'm starting to think 4Ks owes Zylonbane money, and Grooveybee kicked him in the NES.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Underball

[GroovyBee]

This is the last I'll say, because my head is hurting from the sheer lunacy of you people (except you, ZylonBane. You rock!).

 

I just get sick and tired of GroovyBee's constant assertions that how 7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system

 

Please quote were I've stated that.

 

 

The "Sell me on a 5200" thread, starting here.

 

Please find in that thread where I've said that the 7800 is the most powerful 8 bit. If you can't, then you are talking BS.

 

his incessant talk about how sweet his homebrews are,

 

I have pointed people at all 7800 homebrew authors in the past as examples of how far the 7800 has come.

 

I'm talking about how you go into every "best 7800 games" thread and glorify all your homebrews, instead of just suggesting your favorite old games (which, after all, is what those topics are about).

 

Every 7800 games thread? People point out that homebrewing is going on for the old platforms all the time. Yet another BS comment from you.

 

and, most of all, his stubbornness. He just can't accept that NES does indeed have strengths that 7800 doesn't, and he constantly gets into arguments with people about it.

 

Again. Please quote where I've said that the 7800 beats the NES hands down.

 

That's not what I said. I said you just won't accept that there are some things 7800 can't do, and NES can. 7800 can do Robotron, NES can't. NES can do Kirby's Adventure, 7800 can't. It's that simple.

 

So its OK for you to put words in my mouth but not the other way around? . Again, please find where I've said that "the NES can't do Robotron". The NES can't do Kirby's Adventure without additional hardware in the cart. The 7800 can't do Kirby's Adventure in your opinion. In my opinion I don't see why it couldn't do a reasonable port of the game. Since I've coded several scrolling games on the 7800 and you haven't, I'll take my opinion over yours any day of the week.

[high voltage]

7800 is the most powerful 8-bit system

[Atarifever]

This is the last I'll say, because my head is hurting from the sheer lunacy of you people (except you, ZylonBane. You rock!).

 

This compliment must please Zylonbane. Having you say that is like finding out you have someone to verify your alibi for not murdering someone. Then finding out that person is OJ Simpson.

 

Your head isn't hurting from lunacy. That is the feeling of trying to have a thought that is informed by something, like data or logic. It may be painful, but strugggle through. Don't fight it. The vast majority of both logic and fact are against you, so you may find that changes your opinion. Happens to people all the time. That's the point of debate. As I said in my last post, you have already stated the truth. I guess you just have to accept what you already said. I know it is scary. Thought sometimes is.