Why did Atari ditch the 5200?

[bobotech]

I have always loved the Atari 5200. I'm a big 8-bit fan so it held a speical place for me. I never got one as a kid though but it was my dream system (along with the colecovision).

[supercat]

#1 if atari 5200 was backwards compatible from the the start (no add ons) w/the 2600. that alone would have been a safeguard for atari and would have made many 2600 owners think the 5200 was an "upgrade."

 

I would think that the circuitry required to make a 5200 emulate a 2600 would actually have cost more than the circuitry for a 2600. On the other hand, some acknowledgment of the 2600 in the 5200's design might have been nice. I wonder how hard it would have been, for example, to have an RCA "video" (RF) input jack and a three-position power/video selector for 2600/off/5200 mode.

[+Allan]

#1 if atari 5200 was backwards compatible from the the start (no add ons) w/the 2600. that alone would have been a safeguard for atari and would have made many 2600 owners think the 5200 was an "upgrade."

 

I would think that the circuitry required to make a 5200 emulate a 2600 would actually have cost more than the circuitry for a 2600. On the other hand, some acknowledgment of the 2600 in the 5200's design might have been nice. I wonder how hard it would have been, for example, to have an RCA "video" (RF) input jack and a three-position power/video selector for 2600/off/5200 mode.

 

I believe your right. That's why the GCC guys said "Hey, the 5200! It's not even 2600 compatible! We could do better."

and designed the 7800. I still think the 5200 in some ways is ahead of the 7800 due to the genius of Jay Minor and crew but then again the 7800 was designed with the idea of simplicity where the 800/5200 was designed to be the best of the best throwing 2600-compatibility out the window.

 

People interested in ths subject should really listen to the GCC speech with Curt V. It's on Curt's site in the 7800 section. http://www.atarimuseum.com/

 

Allan

Edited February 19, 2008 by Allan

[NE146]

The thing is, I don't think any 5200 games use the analog nature of the stick.

 

Nah man try out Missile Command on the 5200. It's pure analog control. For me it's almost too delicate.

 

As someone who was lucky enough to have a 5200 (thanks mom) I really don't know why some corporate decisions were made. I only know what I experienced from my perspective as a kid looking for hot new 5200 releases! For a time it was the coolest thing to have this sleek console that when you turned on, had amazing graphics on your tv such as Joust. Oh man was it awesome. That being said, I recall a long period of time where I noticed the availability of games were drying up and there seemed to be no more carts to buy. It sucked ass.

 

Now with retro-perspective turned on.. do you know how amazing it would have been if we had seen games like Super Pacman, Jr. Pacman, BLASTER (!), STARGATE (!), and Millipede come out? I think my head would have exploded. It really pisses me off that those games were pretty much THERE and we didnt see them back in the day. They are awesome ports. And even to an extent that Donkey Kong, Asteroids & Tempest were still possibilities, the 5200 could have been so much more of THE most awesome console of it's time back in the day when those games counted. Ah well. At least we get to play them now

[+Allan]

The thing is, I don't think any 5200 games use the analog nature of the stick.

 

Nah man try out Missile Command on the 5200. It's pure analog control. For me it's almost too delicate.

 

As someone who was lucky enough to have a 5200 (thanks mom) I really don't know why some corporate decisions were made. I only know what I experienced from my perspective as a kid looking for hot new 5200 releases! For a time it was the coolest thing to have this sleek console that when you turned on, had amazing graphics on your tv such as Joust. Oh man was it awesome. That being said, I recall a long period of time where I noticed the availability of games were drying up and there seemed to be no more carts to buy. It sucked ass.

 

Now with retro-perspective turned on.. do you know how amazing it would have been if we had seen games like Super Pacman, Jr. Pacman, BLASTER (!), STARGATE (!), and Millipede come out? I think my head would have exploded. It really pisses me off that those games were pretty much THERE and we didnt see them back in the day. They are awesome ports. And even to an extent that Donkey Kong, Asteroids & Tempest were still possibilities, the 5200 could have been so much more of THE most awesome console of it's time back in the day when those games counted. Ah well. At least we get to play them now

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. I remember calling Atari's 1-800 number and talking to people about what games were coming out. One person said look for a game called 'Final Legacy', but it never made it.

 

Allan

[ymike673]

AS an original 5200 owner.(I purchased mine the first day it was released) I just want to set a few things straight.

 

The reason Pac Man was not the" pack in" game was because Pac Man was not released until about 3 months after the 5200 debuted. Atari would release about 3 games a month after the console came out. The Track Ball came out about 6 months later. "Super Break Out" actually made sense since it could be played by 4 players and that was one of the 5200's original selling points. Furthermore the 5 or 6 games that were released when the 5200 came out (Missle Command, Countermeasure,Defender,Star Raiders) all could be played with the 5200 non-self centering joystick with no problems. As for the 5200 vs the 400/800 computers, while the 5200 sold for around $250 the 400 went for $400+ and the 800 even more. If you were just interested in gaming the 5200 was the "cheaper alternative" at the time. And at the time it was rumored that Atari was going to release a keyboard module for the 5200.

Now Atari did make many mistakes. Why not more 4 player cartridges?. And had a self-centering joystick been released at the same time as Pac Man it could also have helped things. When the price of the 5200 was lowered to $100 with Pac Man included I believe it did outsell the Colecovision unit. The main reason I went with the Atari was that other than Donkey Kong, I played all the games featured by Atari at arcades.

[phuzaxeman]

AS an original 5200 owner.(I purchased mine the first day it was released) I just want to set a few things straight.

 

The reason Pac Man was not the" pack in" game was because Pac Man was not released until about 3 months after the 5200 debuted. Atari would release about 3 games a month after the console came out. The Track Ball came out about 6 months later. "Super Break Out" actually made sense since it could be played by 4 players and that was one of the 5200's original selling points. Furthermore the 5 or 6 games that were released when the 5200 came out (Missle Command, Countermeasure,Defender,Star Raiders) all could be played with the 5200 non-self centering joystick with no problems. As for the 5200 vs the 400/800 computers, while the 5200 sold for around $250 the 400 went for $400+ and the 800 even more. If you were just interested in gaming the 5200 was the "cheaper alternative" at the time. And at the time it was rumored that Atari was going to release a keyboard module for the 5200.

Now Atari did make many mistakes. Why not more 4 player cartridges?. And had a self-centering joystick been released at the same time as Pac Man it could also have helped things. When the price of the 5200 was lowered to $100 with Pac Man included I believe it did outsell the Colecovision unit. The main reason I went with the Atari was that other than Donkey Kong, I played all the games featured by Atari at arcades.

i dont think the 5200 outsold the colecovision.

 

i love super breakout but the 5200 would have sold more if it built a campaign around a 5200 w/pac man console from the start.

 

one of the biggest mistakes was not having the 5200 compatible with the 2600 from the getgo and not devoting more $ to development and advertising.

[supercat]

"Super Break Out" actually made sense since it could be played by 4 players and that was one of the 5200's original selling points.

 

Perhaps, but Super Breakout was available on the 2600, and possibly more playable on that platform (depends on how well one gets the 'feel' of the sticks). There wasn't really anything to distinguish the 5200 Super Breakout from the 2600 version.

 

Atari should have included Star Raiders as the pack-in, and skipped the 2600 version of that game altogether. That would have given the 5200 a large and immediate boost.

[supercat]

one of the biggest mistakes was not having the 5200 compatible with the 2600 from the getgo and not devoting more $ to development and advertising.

 

There would have been no practical way to make a machine compatible with both the Atari 400 and the 2600. The only components that would be shared between the two machines would be the RF modulator, power supply, and processor. Further, because of everything else that was different between the two machines, sharing the processor would have been impractical.

 

If Atari's goal had instead been to design a "2600 plus", that might have been interesting. Some features that could have been added reasonably easily:

• A 2Kx8 SRAM from $0800-$0FFF
  
• An extended cartridge connector to allow 64K of addressing space (I would have made the cartridges shape somewhat like a non-slanted Chevrolet logo), so new cartridges would be bigger but old cartridges would fit snugly.
  
• A selectable phi0 clock rate of clk/3 (old mode) or clk/2 (new mode)
  
• Two more pairs of player/missile sprites
  
• Allow each sprite to be triggered by either its own or its "partner's" position register (see below), with delay.
  
• A more versatile NUSIZx arrangement (writes to the old NUSIZx would get automatically translated to the new style)
  
• A more convenient sprite motion system.
  
• Some improvements to 'vertical delay'
  
• An 80-bit-wide playfield (10 bytes), with ganged and unganged write registers.
  

A machine like that may not have been quite as powerful as the 5200, but it could have done a lot. In situations where one would want to overlay two sprites to mimic a more colorful sprite, or position two sprites next to each other to mimic a wider one, being able to have the sprites triggered by one's choice of position registers would allow one register to be set up while the other was used for display.

 

Such a machine couldn't do some of the things the 5200 can do, but it could still do a lot, and at a much lower cost than the 5200.

[slampam]

Atari never ditched the 5200, their new owner "Mr. T" did that for them. After getting kicked out of his own company (Commodore), "Mr. T" trashed the game side of Atari thinking it Kid Stuff that distracted from the Adult computer market. (Atari was half a billion in dept). As a result the pre-"Mr. T" 7800 was also ditched as well as the 7800 adapter for the 5200. Fixed controllers and ready-for-release prototype games became dreams. I Pity the Fool!

[ymike673]

"Super Break Out" actually made sense since it could be played by 4 players and that was one of the 5200's original selling points.

 

Perhaps, but Super Breakout was available on the 2600, and possibly more playable on that platform (depends on how well one gets the 'feel' of the sticks). There wasn't really anything to distinguish the 5200 Super Breakout from the 2600 version.

 

Atari should have included Star Raiders as the pack-in, and skipped the 2600 version of that game altogether. That would have given the 5200 a large and immediate boost.

 

I agree with you. Star Raiders would have been a better choice than Super Break Out and it played well with the 5200 joysticks. I really believe Breakout being the "Pack In" game was because it was the only 5200 game that could be played by 4 players and Atari originally marketed the 5200 as a 4 player system. I think Missle Command would also have been a better choice.

[Lord Thag]

Atari should have included Star Raiders as the pack-in, and skipped the 2600 version of that game altogether. That would have given the 5200 a large and immediate boost.

 

 

I agree with you. Star Raiders would have been a better choice than Super Break Out and it played well with the 5200 joysticks. I really believe Breakout being the "Pack In" game was because it was the only 5200 game that could be played by 4 players and Atari originally marketed the 5200 as a 4 player system. I think Missle Command would also have been a better choice.

 

You know, I never thought about it before, but Star Raiders would have made a huge impact. That game was the biggest reason a lot of folks actually bought their Atari computers way back when (it's how my original 800 got picked up). Star Raiders as a pack in would have rocked! Good point.

[supercat]

I really believe Breakout being the "Pack In" game was because it was the only 5200 game that could be played by 4 players and Atari originally marketed the 5200 as a 4 player system. I think Missle Command would also have been a better choice.

 

Does the 5200 version of Super Breakout support any simultaneous-play options? If not, why is it more suitable for 4 players than any other turn-based game?

 

Hmm.... if I actually had anyone with whom to play test during development I just had an idea for a 2600 game. How about "team breakout". In two-player mode, there would be a wall of bricks at the top of the screen to be broken. The two players would have paddles at different heights; there would be one or two rows of bricks below the paddles. There would always be three balls in play; each turn would last until a ball broke through below the two players.

 

The game could then also have a four-player mode, with paddles on the top and bottom. To add a strategy element, each player could vary how hard they hit the ball using a "power-gauge" controlled by the fire button. Something like Warlords, but for two teams of two players each.

 

How does that sound for an arrangement?

[supercat]

You know, I never thought about it before, but Star Raiders would have made a huge impact. That game was the biggest reason a lot of folks actually bought their Atari computers way back when (it's how my original 800 got picked up). Star Raiders as a pack in would have rocked! Good point.

 

After Combat, was Coleco's Donkey Kong the next stand-out game to be bundled with a console? Have any later systems not made by Atari not come with a stand-out game?

 

IIRC, the Intellivision came with Blackjack/Poker (yawn).

The Odyssey came with a 3-way cart which was functional as a pack-in, but a racing game with no concept of momentum isn't much fun.

The Colecovision came with Donkey Kong (yeah!)

The Sega Genesis came with Sonic the Hedgehog (right?)

The NES came with Super Mario Brothers (yeah!)

 

The 5200 came with Super Breakout (huh?)

The 7800 came with Pole Position II (yawn)

 

What did the Lynx, Dreamcast, Turbo Duo, PS, PS2, PS3, XBox, and DS come with?

[Inky]

The Sega Genesis came with Sonic the Hedgehog (right?)

 

Well, first gen Genesises (Genese? Genesi?) Came with ALtered Beast as a pack in.

[accousticguitar]

There was no game with the PS1 I bought.

[Retro Rogue]

The Sega Genesis came with Sonic the Hedgehog (right?)

 

As Inky mentioned, the first pack in was Altered Beast. Sonic was later ('91).

 

The 5200 came with Super Breakout (huh?)

 

Actually, this was the first pack in. It was replaced by Pac-Man.

 

 

What did the Lynx, Dreamcast, Turbo Duo, PS, PS2, PS3, XBox, and DS come with?

 

California Games for the Lynx I. The Lynx II had several different pack in versions.

 

Dreamcast had Sega Smash Pack Volume 1 initially, and there were other packaged volumes.

 

Turbo Duo - 3-in-1 CD, Ys Book I and II, and a Hu-card containing one of several different games)

 

PS - none

 

PS2 - Gran Turismo 3

[Retro Rogue]

The 5200 should have been the XEGS. 3 years was plenty of time for Atari to learn how to cost-reduce the 400 enough to release that, maybe something like a 600XL with a membrane or optional external keyboard.

 

 

That was exactly one of the main reasons for canceling it that Leonard Tramiel had told me. They felt it was a travesty, and tried to "do it right" with the XEGS. That, and the fact that it wasn't selling well. Though they did have it in the back of their booth at the Winter CES in early '85, though it was kept in the background (I think they were mainly interested in just selling off the stock that was left).

[DracIsBack]

That was exactly one of the main reasons for canceling it that Leonard Tramiel had told me. They felt it was a travesty, and tried to "do it right" with the XEGS. That, and the fact that it wasn't selling well. Though they did have it in the back of their booth at the Winter CES in early '85, though it was kept in the background (I think they were mainly interested in just selling off the stock that was left).

 

I thought the 5200 was discontinued by Warner before Tramiel entered the picture?

[ymike673]

I really believe Breakout being the "Pack In" game was because it was the only 5200 game that could be played by 4 players and Atari originally marketed the 5200 as a 4 player system. I think Missle Command would also have been a better choice.

 

Does the 5200 version of Super Breakout support any simultaneous-play options? If not, why is it more suitable for 4 players than any other turn-based game?

 

Hmm.... if I actually had anyone with whom to play test during development I just had an idea for a 2600 game. How about "team breakout". In two-player mode, there would be a wall of bricks at the top of the screen to be broken. The two players would have paddles at different heights; there would be one or two rows of bricks below the paddles. There would always be three balls in play; each turn would last until a ball broke through below the two players.

 

The game could then also have a four-player mode, with paddles on the top and bottom. To add a strategy element, each player could vary how hard they hit the ball using a "power-gauge" controlled by the fire button. Something like Warlords, but for two teams of two players each.

 

How does that sound for an arrangement?

 

 

It's 4 player in the sense that 4 people could have joysticks plugged in at the same time and could all play in rotation. You could not have all 4 play the game at the same time. I know this is not a big deal buts it is still the "only" game Atari releaed in which the 4 joystick ports on the console were ever really needed. If you plugged the Track Ball into port 1 all four players could also play in rotatation.

[NE146]

re: pack-ins, don't forget the TG16 came with the amazing Keith Courage in Alpha Zones

[ymike673]

Here is another possible reason for Super Break Out. When I bought my 5200 I also bought a Missle Command Cartridge because I wanted to play a better game than Break Out. Maybe Atari decided to include a so-so game with the console because they believed that buyers would also buy a better game cartridge when they purchased the console. Kind of short sighted thinking but possible.

[HammR25]

They ditched it because they had a far superior console given to them by GCC.

[Retro Rogue]

That was exactly one of the main reasons for canceling it that Leonard Tramiel had told me. They felt it was a travesty, and tried to "do it right" with the XEGS. That, and the fact that it wasn't selling well. Though they did have it in the back of their booth at the Winter CES in early '85, though it was kept in the background (I think they were mainly interested in just selling off the stock that was left).

 

I thought the 5200 was discontinued by Warner before Tramiel entered the picture?

 

 

No. In fact they had just signed a deal with Lucasfilm that May to do Rescue on Fractulus and Ballblazer for the 5200. Cloak and Dagger was in the works as well, the Puffer project, etc. The Tramiel's put the final nail in the coffin for 5200 support by Atari.

[mos6507]

No. In fact they had just signed a deal with Lucasfilm that May to do Rescue on Fractulus and Ballblazer for the 5200. Cloak and Dagger was in the works as well, the Puffer project, etc. The Tramiel's put the final nail in the coffin for 5200 support by Atari.

 

It's too bad the Tramiels didn't dust off all of the older 5200 titles that were in the queue to release as XEGS titles. They never released Super Pac Man, for instance. Of course, most of these were probably in license hell.