Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Didn't someone in the Atari camp say the BASIC was slower earlier in the thread...? Isn't it caused by the size of available commands? and what does that mean dear emkay, apart from showing you have not much idea about programming in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 This is a simple example on Atari... no yellow, no orange, no white, no red on skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Pfff, the C16 kicks both machine's asses in terms of colour and resolution.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 polly tracker - 4 channel sample player: - 4-9 kHz sample rate on each channel (C-2 = 8000 Hz) - 4-bit output (or 8-bit with Digimax) Well, It's actually the Polly Tracker making me laughing my balls of On C64 some people made a 4 channel "MOD" Player .... on a computer that wasn't even intended to play even simple digis. Particular this feature the A8 would do with bravour(.... if only one would do such stuff). Faster CPU and you don't have to downmix the 4 channels. Just play one of 4 instruments on each channel with 4 bits results in overall better dynamics... and leaves more cycles for higher samplelrates.... And now someone may tell to some Wall, or blow into an Ox's horn, that the C64 only was better by some technical facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 OK. This time the picture and the colours fit . Maybe, but as it can be observed e.g. on the Forever party, almost every C-64 picture (not to mention every thing they call "plasma") displayed on the big screen, is either violet, or brown, or both. As if the C-64 palette of 16 colors consisted of 7 violets, 7 browns, black and white :> Pretty boring in longer terms, thus my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasholzer Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 OK. This time the picture and the colours fit . Maybe, but as it can be observed e.g. on the Forever party, almost every C-64 picture (not to mention every thing they call "plasma") displayed on the big screen, is either violet, or brown, or both. As if the C-64 palette of 16 colors consisted of 7 violets, 7 browns, black and white :> Pretty boring in longer terms, thus my question. Yes, but that's the whole point isn't it. Oswald is only interested in...'my computer is better than yours', nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Maybe, but as it can be observed e.g. on the Forever party, almost every C-64 picture (not to mention every thing they call "plasma") displayed on the big screen, is either violet, or brown, or both. As if the C-64 palette of 16 colors consisted of 7 violets, 7 browns, black and white :> Pretty boring in longer terms, thus my question. If you want to shade your graphics, i think painting in primary colours wouldn't be such a good idea... For the fact that the C64 has only 16 colours, you can do much with them. Some colours, like pink, are chosen in colour gradients, because they have, for example, a luminance value between dark blue and light blue. Concerning C64 colours: http://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Didn't someone in the Atari camp say the BASIC was slower earlier in the thread...? Isn't it caused by the size of available commands? and what does that mean dear emkay, apart from showing you have not much idea about programming in general? You don't have to be polite to me in this ridiculous way. Just learn to accept other people's opinions and tastes. My question eventually explain that I have no idea of the C64's basic and that my last program is written in 1992. But it doesn't explain what you imagine in your brain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Oswald, TMR thanks for the hints. @ Oswald, I listened to the tunes you suggested. Most of them seem to 'run on CIA'. Is this the so called 'variable speed'? A few of the tunes are not totally my style of music, but instruments sound very good to me. Some of them I wouldn't even expect from SID. Would be nice if the SID-player also displays the CIA speed. Sometimes it's low, sometimes it's high, f.e. for samples. (Dirty_64.sid & R_E_E_D.sid use samples). I guess the higher player speed (instead of 50Hz) is used mostly for tweaking the filters / waveforms. What to expect from a C64 equipped with 8 separate SID-boards? Each board has own 64kB RAM and CPU (for sampling and complex synth). Can you imagine? (I have all the stuff to make it work ) ...24 voice SID with 8 independent filters. Another question (Oswald/TMR) Do you know the sound of the soundchip YM2612 (Sega Genesis)? Not regarded the number of voices of the YM2612, how do you compare it to the SID? Not sure if YM2612 also has analogue filters, but it has 6 operator-based FM synth voices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Do you know the sound of the soundchip YM2612 (Sega Genesis)? Not regarded the number of voices of the YM2612, how do you compare it to the SID? Not sure if YM2612 also has analogue filters, but it has 6 operator-based FM synth voices. It's hard to compare additive with subtractive synthesis. The YM2612 has no filter, but you can emulate filer like effects on FM by controlling the total level (TL) of an operator in realtime. Another problem is that FM is harder to program, which means: it's easy to create completely overdistorted sounds, which is the case in many many Genesis/Mega Drive Games. If programmed well, it can theoretically create a much wider range of sounds, but they all sounds different, more "calculated" than analogue filtered sounds, which however doesn't have to be a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 btw time to vomit pals Have something that is not violet and brown? sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I think the IIGS might have the best soundchip of all 16-Bit machines. It's the same chip that was powering Ensoniqs legendary Mirage synthesizer and is AFAIK the brainchild from the same guy that created the SID before. It can play 32 samples parallel or so It's been so good that the Beatles' Apple company sued Apple for entering the music business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 This is a simple example on Atari... no yellow, no orange, no white, no red on skin. looks nice, could be improved a lot by a skilled gfxman. still my example showed 320x200 (without interlace) and 16 colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 On C64 some people made a 4 channel "MOD" Player .... on a computer that wasn't even intended to play even simple digis. people usually find programs cool that do things on a machine which wasnt even intended to do, not even in a simple way. except you according to you instead of paying some respect in this cases you laugh off your 'balls off'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 For the fact that the C64 has only 16 colours, you can do much with them. indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 there are a lot of c64 pixel wizards... but unfortunatly we can not convince them to have a play with g2f... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 @ Oswald, I listened to the tunes you suggested. Most of them seem to 'run on CIA'. Is this the so called 'variable speed'? historically the default way to play music on the c64 is to call the musicroutine each frame once thus 50 times per second. then some people started to make music which called the music player often. there are tunes out there which update the tunes up to 16x50 times per second. but the most common is 2x/4x speed tunes. so a 2x tune means that it updates sid registers 2x50 times each second, etc. I guess the higher player speed (instead of 50Hz) is used mostly for tweaking the filters / waveforms. yeah if the player is written cleverly, then most of the player routine calls really just updates the registers, and the "music data sequencing" is done at 50fps only. What to expect from a C64 equipped with 8 separate SID-boards? Each board has own 64kB RAM and CPU (for sampling and complex synth). Can you imagine? (I have all the stuff to make it work ) ...24 voice SID with 8 independent filters. this is only 4 sids: Do you know the sound of the soundchip YM2612 (Sega Genesis)? the soundchip of speccys and atari STs? first I thought its very weak compared to the SID, the sounds are somehow too clean, too perfect, and only squares no filters, etc. but later I've heard some really nicely composed tunes in and then my opinion got better about it. in the hands of a good composer it gets really good. basically its a SID with only squares/noise and no filters. but I base this only on what I hear, I dont know its specs there are many great YM tunes here : http://plopbox.net/ (change the filter to YM) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Didn't someone in the Atari camp say the BASIC was slower earlier in the thread...? Isn't it caused by the size of available commands? and what does that mean dear emkay, apart from showing you have not much idea about programming in general? You don't have to be polite to me in this ridiculous way. Just learn to accept other people's opinions and tastes. My question eventually explain that I have no idea of the C64's basic and that my last program is written in 1992. But it doesn't explain what you imagine in your brain well, the size (did you mean NUMBER, right?) of the available commands has nothing to do with their speed. so I think it is a nonsubjective fact that you dont know much about programming, especially about ML. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Surely though, techniques like Gtia bug, hip/tip, cin and the c64 version fli/ifli essentially give both machines similar potential, either in incresed colours or more resolution Once the proposed 'vbxe' (by Electron) finally sees the light of day and is largely accepted by the A8 fraternity.. I'd be interested in seeing some advanced versions of gtia bug/hip/tip or cin programming on the new hardware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I think the IIGS might have the best soundchip of all 16-Bit machines. It's the same chip that was powering Ensoniqs legendary Mirage synthesizer and is AFAIK the brainchild from the same guy that created the SID before. It can play 32 samples parallel or so Ensoniq was started by the same guy who made the SID. If this guy (Bob Yannes) would have given just a few months more development time, the sid would have more sound channels: "BOB YANNES: Due to time constraints, the oscillators in SID were not multiplexed, therefore they took up a lot of chip area, constraining the number of voices I could fit on a chip." "ANDREAS : What would you have changed in the SIDs design, if you had a bigger budget from Commodore? BOB YANNES : The issue wasn't budget, it was development time and chip size constraints. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 (edited) For the fact that the C64 has only 16 colours, you can do much with them. indeed. The thing is: we both know what the C64 can do. And we are in an Atari forum, so we shouldn't expect everyone here falling on his knees, saying "yes, the C64 is the almighty best 8bit computer ever build". And why should one expect that? It would be boring if everyone is a C64 freak. I know, as a coder, it's hard to read some cringeworthy remarks by gamers here, but understand that not everyone understands every single bit discussed here. After all, all those machines we are talking about are forgotten and obsolete, but we still use them, because we like them. And coding on each machine is a technical challenge, which should have one ultimate goal: breaking the limitations thought to be impossible on this machine. Having this goal in mind, it can be fun to code on any hardware, like Atari VCS for example. What I basically mean is: some C64 people should try and look a bit over their plate, because there are so much interesting architectures around, it's boring to engage in so-called "system wars". I love each system! (except Atari ST ) Edited April 25, 2008 by Vigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Do you know the sound of the soundchip YM2612 (Sega Genesis)? the soundchip of speccys and atari STs? first I thought its very weak compared to the SID, the sounds are somehow too clean, too perfect, and only squares no filters, etc. but later I've heard some really nicely composed tunes in and then my opinion got better about it. in the hands of a good composer it gets really good. basically its a SID with only squares/noise and no filters. but I base this only on what I hear, I dont know its specs It's two different chips: AY (128K Speccy / ST ) vs. YM (Genny) Similar technology of the Yamaha chip working in the Genny was also used in Segas Arcade games and Yamaha synthesizers. The audio hardware of the Genny is a complex thing, it has a second soundchip (TI-PSG), 8K extra music RAM and an extra Z-80 CPU to control all of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Do you know the sound of the soundchip YM2612 (Sega Genesis)? the soundchip of speccys and atari STs? first I thought its very weak compared to the SID, the sounds are somehow too clean, too perfect, and only squares no filters, etc. but later I've heard some really nicely composed tunes in and then my opinion got better about it. in the hands of a good composer it gets really good. basically its a SID with only squares/noise and no filters. but I base this only on what I hear, I dont know its specs It's two different chips: AY (128K Speccy / ST ) vs. YM (Genny) The ST actually has a YM2149, which is basically a clone of the AY-8910 (except some small enhancements). Similar technology of the Yamaha chip working in the Genny was also used in Segas Arcade games and Yamaha synthesizers. The audio hardware of the Genny is a complex thing, it has a second soundchip (TI-PSG), 8K extra music RAM and an extra Z-80 CPU to control all of this The Genesis is bascially a slightly reduced hardware what Sega had used in their Arcade Games back in 1988. Yamaha built a wide range of sound chips in various flavours. The most popular were YM2149, the YM3812 (OPL2), YM2203 (YM2149 plus 3 FM voices) and the YM2151 (8 voice FM, also used in the DX-9 / DX-21 / DX-27 / DX-100 synthesizers). Atari were actually the first which got a license to use their chips (Marble Madness). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Surely though, techniques like Gtia bug, hip/tip, cin and the c64 version fli/ifli essentially give both machines similar potential, either in incresed colours or more resolution we could take a non subjective measurment: which machine reads more data to display its gfx ? nonsubjectively better gfx capabilities means more data pushed through in any cases. c64 for a gfxline maxxes out at 124 bytes read for the gfx. (I havent added sprite pointers tho they are aswell 8 bytes read for gfx purposes) atari has 48 bytes of bitmap (or font) data + 8 pmgs at max. (I may be wrong here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 The ST actually has a YM2149, which is basically a clone of the AY-8910 (except some small enhancements). I'm not sure if I got you properly, the Genny sure must've had a next generation chip compared to the Atari ST? At least I can't imagine the ST being capable of doing the music from Streets of Rage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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