Atari Vs C64 --- 80s Computer scene etc chat...

[Allas]

Next year is the 30th Anniversary of Atari 8bit machines. A giant step in computers due his hardware with custom coprocessors, DMA and powerful ANTIC video processor, that show the path to next generation of computers. Even with all the time, there are features that has not been reached for other 8bit models.

 

Ray Kassar has the idea to let Atari to enter to the home computer market and Jay Miner designed this wonderful system, all his works (2600, A8bit and Amiga) are great. Still, there are a lot of people that create software, hardware, events and support Atari 8bit machines. And off course, there is still many users. I hope Atari live for long time.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Allas

[Oswald]

here you are, c64 _charmode_ used at its best _no_tricks_ whatsoever, this is the built in charmode:

 

 

atariksi,

 

maybe here you'll find what you need, I'm unsure what do you want to achieve exactly, but there are already projects which turn a pc into a fileserver using the stock protocol without fastload.

http://zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/crosspl...r/transfer.html

[Oswald]

Next year is the 30th Anniversary of Atari 8bit machines. A giant step in computers due his hardware with custom coprocessors, DMA and powerful ANTIC video processor, that show the path to next generation of computers. Even with all the time, there are features that has not been reached for other 8bit models.

 

yeah cute atarian boasting my fave part is the DMA so how about this: then PET was way ahead of atari with those giant steps, with its custom coprocessor for display, DMA, and powerful 256 character screen(a feature that has not been reached by atari 8 bits ), first usage of 6502 in a home computer, particularly first in everything since c= pet was the first home computer, that showed the path to atari.

[Allas]

Next year is the 30th Anniversary of Atari 8bit machines. A giant step in computers due his hardware with custom coprocessors, DMA and powerful ANTIC video processor, that show the path to next generation of computers. Even with all the time, there are features that has not been reached for other 8bit models.

 

yeah cute atarian boasting my fave part is the DMA so how about this: then PET was way ahead of atari with those giant steps, with its custom coprocessor for display, DMA, and powerful 256 character screen(a feature that has not been reached by atari 8 bits ), first usage of 6502 in a home computer, particularly first in everything since c= pet was the first home computer, that showed the path to atari.

 

You have a PET on your home? you want to celebrete his Anniversary?

[thomasholzer]

Just read my signature, guys

[Oswald]

You have a PET on your home? you want to celebrete his Anniversary?

 

is that required to be allowed to think that the a8bit line was not a giant leap in computing just one step on the stairs?

[Oswald]

Just read my signature, guys

 

"c64 is the superior computer" - 30 million customers

[carmel_andrews]

The c64 is just a R.E'd Atari 8bit....albeit SLIGHTLY slower (R.E'd=Reverse Engineered)

 

In saying that...if our 6510/6502/8502 codeheaded friends from the a8 and c64 world didn't apply any trickery (i e advanced graphics coding techniques like gbug/hip/tip/cin, or FLI/IFLI etc and whatnot to their programs...both machines have roughly the same capabilities

 

In saying that though...You have to admire what our 6510/6502/8502 codeheaded friends are doing on their 'ancient' c64/a8's and making everyone elses jaw drop....As in 'wow, you can get an ancient 8bit computer to do that'...keep up the good work guy's (and girls possibly)

Edited April 23, 2008 by carmel_andrews

[vdub_bobby]

What machine do you think is better by hardware: C64 or NES ?

 

Well, the NES has more colours and a higher colour depth despite it's standard mode being a bit lower res horizontally than the C64; being able to do that ring-buffered scrolling stuff is pretty cool too (one thing i wish the C64 could do a bit easier, VSP or AGSP routines help loads but having it in hardware so y'don't have to stop the sprites leaving through the top of the play area would've been nice) but i'm really not keen on how you have to get data to and from the PPU through a couple of registers, it's a serious bottleneck. The NES sprites are weaker than the C64 too, s'got 64 sprites that can either be 8x8 or 8x16 pixels but the same eight-on-a-scanline limit as the C64 so that's only 64 pixels across max on the one scanline, a quarter of the screen. Granted, a decent-sized object need only be sixteen pixels across but that's still only four objects a scanline before things start disappearing...

A few responses...

The NES absolutely blows away the C64 hires modes. Sure, the C64 sprites are much wider, but they are single-color. So if you want a multicolored sprite you have to stack them and then that advantage disappears. Which is why virtually all games that appeared on both platforms were in the 160 mode on the C64 (i.e., Commando, Pac-Man, Castlevania, 1942, Xevious, etc.) and so look better on the NES.

On the other hand, yes, the NES has some flicker issues.

 

Speaking to the PPU bottleneck - the PPU does has its own data bus so the CPU is not halted while the screen is being drawn. And there is a fast data transfer method that allows you to transfer a page of data to the PPU in ~512 cycles IIRC.

 

Sound is another story, but I will note that the NES audio hardware beats POKEY, so stick it between the A8 and C64 as far as that goes.

Edited April 23, 2008 by vdub_bobby

[Bryan]

The c64 is just a R.E'd Atari 8bit....albeit SLIGHTLY slower (R.E'd=Reverse Engineered)

 

I don't buy this argument for a minute. Every computer product draws upon previous advancements in the marketplace. The 64 chipset does almost nothing the same way as the A8, and is actually more like the kind of hardware found in early arcade machines. For arcade style gaming on a budget, the 64 was untouchable for a couple years.

 

The A8 was revolutionary in its time, but Commodore saw the real opportunities in home computing. Atari didn't understand the market and let their engineers leave. Game over.

 

-Bry

Edited April 23, 2008 by Bryan

[thomasholzer]

Just read my signature, guys

 

"c64 is the superior computer" - 30 million customers

 

how come the C64/Spectrum/Apple ][ etc.... programmers didn't think so?

 

and for you quantity makes quality? You saying that the best selling UK computer, the Spectrum, must be awesome then. Quantity only means thats where the money is.

 

Anyway, I am both, a C64 (C128)/fdd user and A8 (130XE)/fdd user since 1985/1986 (and also Apple ][/fdd from 1989 onwards), so don't tell me which is the superior computer.

 

It was just down to pricing, C64/fdd was lots cheaper than A8/fdd, and oodles cheaper than Apple ][/fdd.

 

For me, many great games on all 3 machines, 1000s of lousy software too.

Edited April 23, 2008 by thomasholzer

[Oswald]

The NES absolutely blows away the C64 hires modes.

 

thats true, c64 can do 160 pixels with many colors, while NES does 256 in a similar mode. however there are exception check this screenshot for example of an unfinished game:

 

 

c64 320x200 kicking the NES resolution.

 

Sure, the C64 sprites are much wider, but they are single-color.

 

*bzzzzzzzzzt* wrong!

 

c64 sprites can be set to multi or single color freely on per sprite basis also can be stretched (doubling pixels) in x/y direction, and/or put under bitmap/charmode gfx which can be set again on a per sprite basis. (priority)

 

So if you want a multicolored sprite you have to stack them and then that advantage disappears. Which is why virtually all games that appeared on both platforms were in the 160 mode on the C64 and so look better on the NES.

 

I fail to see the logical connection how stacked up sprites will turn the screen resolution into 160. if you want a multicolored sprite, then you turn multicolor for that sprite on, no need to stack sprites.

 

c64 sprites are 100% independent of the underlying gfx and vice versa. you can have hires/multicol sprites over hires/multicol/bitmap/charmode/whatever in any mixture, including the ability changing any attributes of those modes (or change the mode itself) midscreen or even midline anywhere be it sprite or gfx.

 

On the other hand, yes, the NES has some flicker issues.

 

the c64 aswell when there are too many sprites on the same scanline.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Oswald

[Cybergoth]

Sound is another story, but I will note that the NES audio hardware beats POKEY, so stick it between the A8 and C64 as far as that goes.

 

Doesn't matter much wether APU or Pokey wins this. The SID is playing completely in another league, probably competing with a Moog or a 303.

 

I've been listening through the _complete_ ASMA archive and 700+ NSF files, there's neither the quantity nor the quality that you can get with SID music.

 

Listen to these, my top 5 SAPs:

 

Debilizator_1_Music_2.sap

Halle_Project_Another_Part.sap

Intel_Outside_Dots_And_Pl.sap

Space_Fix.sap

Vagabond.sap

 

Then pick 5 totally random SIDs from Rob Hubbard, Martin Galway, Chris Hülsbeck, Jeroen Tell, David Whittaker, Feekzoid, Ben Daglish, Matt Gray, Edwin van Santen, Thomas Danko, Mark Cooksey or Pete Clarke or another of the great SID musicians and the SID will still win.

[vdub_bobby]

Sure, the C64 sprites are much wider, but they are single-color.

 

*bzzzzzzzzzt* wrong!

Sorry, I wasn't clear - C64 hires sprites are single-color. To get multicolored sprites you have to go down to lores.

 

Or is that wrong?

[vdub_bobby]

Sound is another story, but I will note that the NES audio hardware beats POKEY, so stick it between the A8 and C64 as far as that goes.

 

Doesn't matter much wether APU or Pokey wins this. The SID is playing completely in another league, probably competing with a Moog or a 303.

True enough.

 

Most SID music I have heard has been very techno-ish - can you point me to some SID tunes more in the style of The Legend of Zelda?

 

 

And, in defense of the NES audio, it does allow background streaming of digitized samples, which I don't believe the SID does.

[Cybergoth]

And, in defense of the NES audio, it does allow background streaming of digitized samples, which I don't believe the SID does.

 

Hm... I think it does. At least if I'm understanding what you mean

 

Try he beginning of Rob Hubbards I'Ball tune, it does say "I'Ball" and even plays digitized drums parallel I think. If you want to fire up VICE, you can try Mega Apocalypse IIRC when it plays samples like "Speed up" or "Missile", there's also still the music underneath.

[Oswald]

It was just down to pricing, C64/fdd was lots cheaper than A8/fdd, and oodles cheaper than Apple ][/fdd.

 

it was not only cheaper, it was a better machine for gaming (sfx,gfx), which both machines were bought for at the first place.

 

Turricans, Creatures, Mayhem, Maniac Mansion, Defender of The Crown, Last Ninjas, Armalyte, Impossible Mission, Giana, California Games, Enforcer, Katakis, Skate or Die, Newcomer, Rick Dangerous, Midnight Resistance, Predator, Driller... the list goes on and on, games that could have been not done in as good quality on a8 as on the c64.

[emkay]

Next year is the 30th Anniversary of Atari 8bit machines. A giant step in computers due his hardware with custom coprocessors, DMA and powerful ANTIC video processor, that show the path to next generation of computers. Even with all the time, there are features that has not been reached for other 8bit models.

 

yeah cute atarian boasting my fave part is the DMA so how about this: then PET was way ahead of atari with those giant steps, with its custom coprocessor for display, DMA, and powerful 256 character screen(a feature that has not been reached by atari 8 bits ), first usage of 6502 in a home computer, particularly first in everything since c= pet was the first home computer, that showed the path to atari.

 

I knew you onlycame to Atariage for finding point o flaming ...

 

To put some stuff to the right direction:

 

Antic is the first custom Chip designed for a specific computer which has the ability of creating its own DMA without using the STOP command of the CPU. That's why the DMA doesn't take as much time as many people think. The ANTIC chip also uses the DMA to run its own program, called the "Dislpaylist" , and it has its own RAM for storing a line of graphics data, so it is a real co-processor, even if very basic.

Well, Agnus (from AMIGA) is the succsessor to the ANTIC chip. While ANTIC runs the Displaylist and only controls the Displaylist Interrupt, the AMIGA's chip also handles the "Displaylist interrupt" without using the CPU...

 

Your "PET DMA" argument is really worthy a laugh....

Edited April 23, 2008 by emkay

[Oswald]

Sorry, I wasn't clear - C64 hires sprites are single-color. To get multicolored sprites you have to go down to lores.

 

thats correct. so what can be said is that NES's 256 wide pixels (and sprites in that reso) represent higher res than c64's 160 wide multicolor mode including its multicolor sprites.

[Oswald]

Most SID music I have heard has been very techno-ish - can you point me to some SID tunes more in the style of The Legend of Zelda?

 

 

http://www.c64.org/sidfind/

 

type "dane" into the search box, he is the best c64 musician imho, with ammazing funky jazzish popish melodies. you will have a problem finding a tune in the result list which you dont like

[vdub_bobby]

And, in defense of the NES audio, it does allow background streaming of digitized samples, which I don't believe the SID does.

 

Hm... I think it does. At least if I'm understanding what you mean

By "background" I mean you point the audio hardware at your data and then it automatically streams the digitized sample without you having to manually bang the hardware ~262 times / second.

 

I'm pretty sure even the lowly TIA can play (one channel ) sound while playing digitized samples with the other channel.

[emkay]

Then pick 5 totally random SIDs from Rob Hubbard, Martin Galway, Chris Hülsbeck, Jeroen Tell, David Whittaker, Feekzoid, Ben Daglish, Matt Gray, Edwin van Santen, Thomas Danko, Mark Cooksey or Pete Clarke or another of the great SID musicians and the SID will still win.

 

No doubt about the SID. But, really, what you hear in the ASMA is not even 50% of what pokey is really capable of.

[emkay]

Making PMG's easy for a BASIC programmer to use probably would have exceeded an 8K ROM.

 

So that's why the LOGO cartridge was 16kB?

 

 

The only complex thing about PM programming in ATARI Basic was that it wasn't explained how to use the "DIM" function for using the PMG with almost ML speeds.

[Cybergoth]

Most SID music I have heard has been very techno-ish - can you point me to some SID tunes more in the style of The Legend of Zelda?

 

There's even two covers of the Zelda dungeon theme in the HVSC:

/MUSICIANS/N/Nata/Zelda_1-Dungeon.sid

/MUSICIANS/A/Ames_John/Legend_Of_Zelda-Dungeon.sid

 

But I think you were rather asking for some slower epic scores? Here's some 10 minute beasts that try building some athmosphere rather than pumping techno beats:

 

/MUSICIANS/G/Gray_Matt/Driller.sid

/MUSICIANS/B/Beben_Wally/Dark_Side.sid

/MUSICIANS/B/Beben_Wally/Tetris.sid

 

(Patience with these, it's really worth it!!)

 

Maybe also try Martin Galways "Times of Lore" score, being a Zelda clone it has some epic RPGish score. Not a personal favourite of mine, but I know many others love it

[Oswald]

:

Antic is the first custom Chip designed for a specific computer which has the ability of creating its own DMA without using the STOP command of the CPU.

 

probably the first in the home computers, but otherwise DMA was invented before Antic. Also can you cite any source which states antic can read from the memory without stopping the cpu? I'm pretty sure thats not true. c64 shares the bus 50-50% of the time with the gfx chip, so something like that must be present in a8 aswell, which I've never heard of. a8 stops the cpu whenever gfx date is to be fetched, it even stops the cpu for memory refresh cycles.

 

That's why the DMA doesn't take as much time as many people think. The ANTIC chip also uses the DMA to run its own program, called the "Dislpaylist" , and it has its own RAM for storing a line of graphics data, so it is a real co-processor, even if very basic.

 

calling registers as RAM is incorrect, I can agree on the rest.

 

Your "PET DMA" argument is really worthy a laugh....

 

yeah, I was wrong there indeed, I do gladly admit it was a false statement. but thats something yourself should start to practise aswell.