Emulation for classic gaming console

[Fort Apocalypse]

Please see topic: "Designing a classic gaming console" for reference.

 

Am curious if anyone could suggest cheap (hopefully small, but doesn't have to be) hardware for running a Mess emulator (in Linux I guess?) off of a memory card/flash memory with 2 USB inputs, and whether you think booting into Mess would be a good idea. Not thinking about selling this particular setup- just trying to figure out a proof of concept.

[Fort Apocalypse]

Note: I also asked on Tom's Hardware here then here.

Edited June 12, 2008 by Fort Apocalypse

[Fort Apocalypse]

This is closest I've come so far. Looks good!

 

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6372429785.html

[Fort Apocalypse]

There is an article I found from not long ago where there is a description of setting up a <$150 box for classic gaming.

 

It looks like sdlmame and sdlmess (along with stella, etc.) would be the most up-to-date linux version for multiple classic arcade and old computer and console emulation.

 

Has anyone installed linux on a compact flash card before? Is it pretty straightforward?

 

Is there a good solution for a single menuing system that you could boot into and run off of a flashcard to run both classic arcade games (via mame) and classic console and old computer games (via mess, stella, etc.)?

 

I've messed with AdvanceMENU before on an old PC and it worked great. Is that what you'd suggest using?

[Fort Apocalypse]

Here's info on setting up to boot into AdvanceMenu in Linux:

http://osdir.com/ml/games.mame.advancemame...5/msg00027.html

[Ze_ro]

Are you aware of the GP2X and the hopefully-soon-to-be-released Pandora? I know you're thinking more along the lines of a computer, but both of these devices run Linux, have internal memory as well as SD slots, and both include video-out so you can hook to a TV, and USB options are available to use gamepads and keyboards.

 

It's worth pointing out that MESS is actually not a very good emulator. It needs a lot of system resources, and the GP2X port of it does not run very well... the GP2X is a 200MHz machine, which leads me to think that you wouldn't be very happy with that 200MHz tiny PC you linked to. You're better off using dedicated emulators for the systems you want to play (as long as they exist... there are many systems where MESS is unfortunately your only option). I'm guessing Atari 2600 might also be unsatisfying on a 200MHz machine, as Stella and Z26 have gotten more demanding as their accuracy improves (Though Stella runs quite well on the GP2X, so maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt the developers are testing it on such low-power machines these days).

 

Regarding Compact Flash, you can find very cheap adaptors that let you hook a CF card (or two of them, in master and slave setup) to an IDE port. In such a configuration, it is essentially indistinguishable from an actual hard drive. I assume that would be a better option than running it off USB or anything else, and any Linux distro (or any other OS for that matter) should happily install to it. However, flash memory might not be such a good idea, as repeated read/write cycles eventually wear out the individual bytes in the card. Depending on the application, this may not be a big problem, but many PC programs don't make any attempt to minimize their drive access, and thus may not be very flash memory-friendly. This is actually one huge hurdle companies will have to overcome before solid-state storage can replace regular hard drives.

 

I've considered buying an Asus Eee PC as a portable emulation system, but that might be a little more expensive and powerful than you want.

 

--Zero

[Fort Apocalypse]

Are you aware of the GP2X and the hopefully-soon-to-be-released Pandora?

 

Yep, and it looks like the GP2X according to Froogle retails at around $ 179.99 + s/h and it is more of a portable gaming device that you can use with a T.V. than something you'd probably be happy sitting in your living room out all of the time as a classic gaming console. I'm not knocking it though. Would be nice to have!

 

And Pandora is also a little pricey at $330.

 

It's worth pointing out that MESS is actually not a very good emulator. It needs a lot of system resources, and the GP2X port of it does not run very well...

 

In another topic about the design, I added some other links to devices and cheaper options in terms of hardware, most notably there was a guy that had a DIY article: Build A 'MAME Brain' For Under $150 which is cheap, relatively small and packs a greater punch than the GP2X with a 1.2 GHz processor.

 

Granted, a lot of people seem to like portability, but for me, a cheaper, dedicated console would be an easier sell. I think $150 is still too expensive though for most people. I think $70-80 is probably the max that the average consumer would pay for a dedicated classic gaming console. Even that might be a hard sell if you have Jakks pumping out $20 devices, even though they only play 5 games each compared to (potentially) thousands. And I know, you can't sell MAME/sdlmame (or MESS/sdlmess, Stella, and most other emulators I'm guessing, even though I didn't look at all of their licenses) on a device that is for-profit (so I'd suggest making the company to sell it a non-profit, although I don't know if that would satisfy legal requirements), and you'd have to have agreements with those with rights to the games to sell them (although I'm sure those with rights to the old games would sell them very, very cheaply if they knew there was a chance to get the most possible profit via more sales and distribution)- the goal being to have hundreds to a thousand games or more in each card possibly.

[Rybags]

Have you looked at Damn Small Linux (DSL) ?

 

I think it should boot of various devices - not sure if you can do a command-line only version but might be worth a look.

 

AFAIK, if your machine allows USB booting then it should equally allow booting e.g. from an SD card plugged into one of those $8 adaptors.

 

You could even setup a cable + header and have it tied inside the machine with your boot card, then just use an external port for other plugin stuff.

 

The actual CPU/hardware you use would depend on what consoles you want. Something like a sub 1 GHz processor and integrated video should be fine for arcade games up to the mid to late 1980s.

 

If you're emulating the 16-bit consoles and early 3D machines like the PS1, Jaguar etc. then you'd probably want something a bit quicker, probably >= a 2 GHz P4 equivalent.

 

These days old P4 Socket 478 boxes, and Athlon XP midrange systems go for next to nothing, so they're a pretty cheap and capable setup. Plus, you can also easily make them perform HTPC functions as well.

[Fort Apocalypse]

Have you looked at Damn Small Linux (DSL) ?

 

I think it should boot of various devices - not sure if you can do a command-line only version but might be worth a look.

 

AFAIK, if your machine allows USB booting then it should equally allow booting e.g. from an SD card plugged into one of those $8 adaptors.

 

You could even setup a cable + header and have it tied inside the machine with your boot card, then just use an external port for other plugin stuff.

 

The actual CPU/hardware you use would depend on what consoles you want. Something like a sub 1 GHz processor and integrated video should be fine for arcade games up to the mid to late 1980s.

 

If you're emulating the 16-bit consoles and early 3D machines like the PS1, Jaguar etc. then you'd probably want something a bit quicker, probably >= a 2 GHz P4 equivalent.

 

These days old P4 Socket 478 boxes, and Athlon XP midrange systems go for next to nothing, so they're a pretty cheap and capable setup. Plus, you can also easily make them perform HTPC functions as well.

 

Thanks! That's good info. Yeah, I've installed DSL a few times and run it a little bit. iirc from a recent install it is Debian-based with v2.4 kernel? I'm guessing most emulators would run on it too. My guess is that the guy that did the DIY article wanted something more recent for whatever reason, although I agree it would be slower, and like the idea of DSL running it. !

 

The main goals I had for console were:

* must be really cheap (but not break apart cheap)

* must have games on some kind of card/cartridge/CD/DVD (since it is supposed to be a console) or have easy ability to buy/download online

* must not be too big (a full sized or even mini ATX case is too bulky for wide distribution)

[Fort Apocalypse]

Gators1223 on Tom's Hardware gave me this setup (roughly $135 with CF card and adapter):

 

here is the abosolute cheapest build on newegg

 

cpu: AMD Sempron LE-1150 Sparta 2.0GHz 256KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 45W Single-Core Processor - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6819103196

Motherboard: PC CHIPS A15G (V1.0) AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6100 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6813185113\

Memory: CORSAIR ValueSelect 256MB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533 (PC2 4200) Desktop Memory - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6820145528

POWMAX MATX3304-S Silver SGCC Steel MicroATX Desktop Computer Case 230W Power Supply - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6811145004

 

looks like you'd also need a CF adapter for $25: http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=SY...-B1&cpc=SCH

 

Also, the MAME brain for < $150 wouldn't need the I-Pac VE Arcade Control Interface so you could subtract $35 from it.

 

Hmm, maybe they're about even? It's too early to do the math.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Fort Apocalypse

[Fort Apocalypse]

For anyone interested, there is a great topic posted recently here on classic gaming rigs:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123026

[mimo]

how about the beagleboard, 3" SQUARE should have enough power for MAME I believe

http://beagleboard.org/hardware

[Fort Apocalypse]

how about the beagleboard, 3" SQUARE should have enough power for MAME I believe

http://beagleboard.org/hardware

 

Wow!!! Not very fast compared to other boards, but the size and featureset is awesome! Would just need a transformer that had a USB plugin to avoid using batteries or requiring another USB device to power it. I wish it weren't so darn expensive though, although that is cheap compared to other small boards!

[Forrest]

how about the beagleboard, 3" SQUARE should have enough power for MAME I believe

http://beagleboard.org/hardware

 

Wow!!! Not very fast compared to other boards, but the size and featureset is awesome! Would just need a transformer that had a USB plugin to avoid using batteries or requiring another USB device to power it. I wish it weren't so darn expensive though, although that is cheap compared to other small boards!

 

The Beagleboard, with an OMAP processor is an embedded computer - a very different box than an x86 based computer. Being the owner of a few embedded systems (HP Jornada 690 and Nokia N770) I can tell you your OS and software choices are greatly reduced on an embedded system. If you're happy these limited choices or you're a programmer than enjoys writing their own apps - then go for the embedded system. But if you're really a gamer that likes a lot of different games, go with an x86 system.

 

I haven't checked out AMD systems lately, but I think the Sempron system you mentioned above requires a CPU fan and heatsink - this system will NOT be quiet. On the other hand, mini-ITX systems based on Via and Intel Atom processors normally don't need a CPU fan - they run very quiet.

 

My current emulation system is an Acer Aspire One, based on a 1.6 GHz Atom, 1 GB RAM and 120 GB drive running Windows XP - works great for Atari800Win Plus and cost $349 http://www.laptopmag.com/review/laptops/ac...windows-xp.aspx