lemoncurry Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Thats awful. The real reason for the change is so less sellers file NPB alerts. You file a strike against someone and you get negged. It will be the last time you file a strike against someone and you just eat that small fee next time. If they neg you and still don't pay, it will get removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Thats awful. The real reason for the change is so less sellers file NPB alerts. You file a strike against someone and you get negged. It will be the last time you file a strike against someone and you just eat that small fee next time. If they neg you and still don't pay, it will get removed. ONLY if they don't respond to the complaint. If they say anything. Anything at all in the complaint then it won't be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 The new feedback policies are definately crap, but so were the old ones. I as a seller leave feedback the instant the buyer has fufilled his/her obligation to me (making payment). Where as 95% of persons I buy from don't leave feedback untill I leave feedback for them. With the old system it was obiviously because they were holding their feedback in case I gave them a negative, then they would just give me a negative too out of spite. Which did happen more than once, and which is why my score now has a few negatives. The only negatives I have are as a buyer, in each case I guaranteed I paid for the auction withing 24 hours with an instant PayPal payment. So how on my part does that constitute a bad transaction thus constituting a negative mark on my account. At least with the new system I can leave a neutral/negative without fear of vendictive asshole reprisal. I personally look too much at feedback any more any ways. My feedback score is up around 450 with only those couple negative retailtory strikes, and I don't really think it's going to affect a buyer's decision that much. I honestly rarely check a seller's feedback with the possible exception of what their overall number is. There are a few times you should check a sellers feedback. If the item is very expensive. If they are asking for something unusual like ship to another address. If they complain about a problem that you were sure did not exist (like in Ian's case) I don't care so much that feedback is now worthless. I care that problem buyers and chargeback scammer can't be marked. Ohh well the buyers can take it as a loss no problem for ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetset Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Don't blame ebay. Blame the sellers who have been taking advantage for years. No that's not to say all sellers are bad, far from it. But there was WAY too much bullshit going on with little or no protection for buyers. Sorry some of you are losing pocket change listing items that don't get paid for, but the shoe has been on the other foot for a LONG time. Ebay had to do something to try and lure buyers back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwackery Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 In about the 20 transactions as a buyer I've done in the last 3 months, 2 were absolutely horrible and so I left negatives, 2 were horrible, did some correction, but not enough, so I left neutrals, and 3 more tried shenanigans with the shipping costs that I had to work with behind the scenes to get them to put things right, so that puts me at roughly a 33% rate for what I consider to be problematic transactions. I am not thrilled with how eBay has gone down the tubes. Most of my buying, selling, and collecting has pretty much lapsed because I don't want the hassle of dealing with humans of disreputable caliber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemoncurry Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Thats awful. The real reason for the change is so less sellers file NPB alerts. You file a strike against someone and you get negged. It will be the last time you file a strike against someone and you just eat that small fee next time. If they neg you and still don't pay, it will get removed. ONLY if they don't respond to the complaint. If they say anything. Anything at all in the complaint then it won't be removed. You are saying that because it says, where they list the valid reasons for feedback removal: "A buyer fails to respond to the Unpaid Item process." However, it also says: "When the communication and comments left by the buyer within the Unpaid Item Dispute Console undermine the integrity of both the Unpaid Item process and the eBay Feedback system" Also, morons playing games with the feedback process or repeatedly being a NPB will get NARUed, and: "If a member is suspended by eBay, negative & neutral Feedback left by that member is removed." So it's not "ONLY" if they don't respond to the NPB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Don't blame ebay. Blame the sellers who have been taking advantage for years. No that's not to say all sellers are bad, far from it. But there was WAY too much bullshit going on with little or no protection for buyers. Sorry some of you are losing pocket change listing items that don't get paid for, but the shoe has been on the other foot for a LONG time. Ebay had to do something to try and lure buyers back. You have paypal protection. That is worth more than anything ebay could do. In the past a quick glance at feedback would give you all you needed to know. You could tell a bad seller from a good seller. Some buyers wouldn't post bad negs but enough would to give you a clear idea of what was going on. Now everyone will have negs (atleast the sellers) bad sellers who jump through hoops will now have better feedback and scammers on the buyers end have a free lunch. Ebay now "protects" buyers from negatives? Who cares? Buyers don't need great feedback anyway its not like people will turn away money unless there is a real issue there. The truely bad sellers will now have better feedback and the great seller will have worse. No feedback removal means there is no reason for the seller to work with you after the fact. How exactly does this new feedback system make things better? Its worse for everyone BUT the scammer. The seller scammer and the buyer scammer are both lovin it. If you got ripped off as a buyer 90% of the time it is your fault. You didn't use paypal with a credit card or you didn't research your buyer. If the seller has no shipping price or has it listed at $99 shipping for a combat cart then yes thats your fault for bidding. As a seller you can not pick your buyers you can block them but only after they screwed you over once before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetset Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 No feedback removal means there is no reason for the seller to work with you after the fact. How exactly does this new feedback system make things better? Its worse for everyone BUT the scammer. The seller scammer and the buyer scammer are both lovin it. The new feedback system is a godsend for buyers. The seller can no longer play games with inflated shipping, or sending something not as advertised, or take 2 weeks to ship out, etc...Well, they can still play games, but before they only did it because they were holding back the positive for the seller, and because of that the buyer wouldn't give proper feedback. Today? A buyer can truly give appropriate feedback without fear of the "nyah-nyah" retaliation neg simply for paying immediately and not being happy about being scammed by the buyer. Ripped off on shipping? NEG! Atari carts smell of cat urine? NEG! Took 2 weeks to respond to emails and never shipped item NEGNEGNEGNEG!!! If you got ripped off as a buyer 90% of the time it is your fault. You didn't use paypal with a credit card or you didn't research your buyer. If the seller has no shipping price or has it listed at $99 shipping for a combat cart then yes thats your fault for bidding. As a seller you can not pick your buyers you can block them but only after they screwed you over once before. Well, that goes both ways. If a sellers gets a neg 90% of the time now its their fault. Don't want a neg for inflated shipping? Don't inflate the shipping! Just remember there's a LOT more scam artist sellers than buyers by FAR. It seems otherwise here on AA because there are so very many businessmen here to sell stuff and make a buck off the hobby using Atari Age as their free advertising pulpit. Buyers needed protection. Our only complaint is that this update took so long to happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 The new feedback system is a godsend for buyers. The seller can no longer play games with inflated shipping, or sending something not as advertised, or take 2 weeks to ship out, etc...Well, they can still play games, but before they only did it because they were holding back the positive for the seller, and because of that the buyer wouldn't give proper feedback. You are both correct and incorrect - it is not just about feedback for the sellers. It is about sellers being ripped off as well. I used to check bidder feedback and cancel bids from people with shit feedback.. I guess I can only do that now if they are bad sellers too... If only buyers needed protection, then why do we even worry about things like counterfeit money, bad cheques, stolen credit cards... A bad seller before will still be a bad seller. They were operating under the threat of receiving negative feedback before and they still are. They just can't leave retaliatory negs anymore. A good seller has more incentive to finally leave eBay, which I have done. As more good sellers leave, we'll see how much of a "godsend" that is for buyers... I had most negatives from NPBs and other newbs who had no idea how to use the feedback system. I sold mostly DVDs over several years and I still cannot comprehend how so many people left comments about the freakin movie they bought from me versus their purchase experience... My feed back is over 12,000 BTW. I never scammed anyone, never left anyone hanging for a solution, but I got taken for plenty of rides by scamming buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwackery Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 (edited) Do y'all think that, as the economy here in the US steadily worsens, there has been a general decline in the quality of service, and a rise in the general snarkiness of people, across the board? Edited June 13, 2008 by Zwackery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 Across what board? This message board or on eBay? As eBay moves forward, the people have become lamer as a whole. The idea that it is far from a community is apparent, and there are more people who lack a sense of responsibility for their actions. In particular as computers have become utterly mainstream amongst the computer illiterate. Here on AA? Haven't seen much of a chance except for more desperate sales, which I like as a buyer. ------ And I don't understand how shipping can be a scam? Most people agree on shipping costs. If you don't know the shipping cost before bidding, it's your risk, absolutely. If you don't like the charge, if you can't haggle it down or agree on a reasonable approach between you and the seller before close, then you have no business bidding. I see shipping more as a service issue. If the item is improperly shipped and damaged, then that's bad service. I've had more problems with shipping off eBay. My pet peeve is European homebrewers sending their wares overseas. I'm maybe 1 for 4 on well packaged homebrew items (in homebrew full color boxes) being shipped improperly in envelopes, bags, whatever and getting damaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetset Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And I don't understand how shipping can be a scam? Say you buy an item...say a 5200 joystick. the seller charges.....say $9.00 Of course you trust the seller that the stamp cost is, well...$9.00 or within a buck or 2 at most. Now a week later you get the item, and its in a package with a $4.50 parcel post stamp on it. You've just been scammed haven't you? Sure we "professional" buyers know better, but most ebay buyers don't know better and trust the seller is not charging them a 100% markup. Of course, in that case the seller deserves and hopefully gets a neg, and next time the byer knows better. But up until that point of seeing the actual postage, the buyer was taking a leap of faith that the seller is being truthful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pangasinan Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I'm the opposite,lately i have been underestimating the shipping cost and making a small loss..that will teach me for being lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 And I don't understand how shipping can be a scam? Say you buy an item...say a 5200 joystick. the seller charges.....say $9.00 Of course you trust the seller that the stamp cost is, well...$9.00 or within a buck or 2 at most. Now a week later you get the item, and its in a package with a $4.50 parcel post stamp on it. You've just been scammed haven't you? Sure we "professional" buyers know better, but most ebay buyers don't know better and trust the seller is not charging them a 100% markup. Of course, in that case the seller deserves and hopefully gets a neg, and next time the byer knows better. But up until that point of seeing the actual postage, the buyer was taking a leap of faith that the seller is being truthful. It is still not a scam... Walmart doesn't charge you the same price they pay for your Doritos do they? As long as the seller tells you up front what they are charging you, and you agree to pay it, it doesn't matter what the markup is... If you don't like the price up front don't buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 And I don't understand how shipping can be a scam? Say you buy an item...say a 5200 joystick. the seller charges.....say $9.00 Of course you trust the seller that the stamp cost is, well...$9.00 or within a buck or 2 at most. Now a week later you get the item, and its in a package with a $4.50 parcel post stamp on it. You've just been scammed haven't you? Sure we "professional" buyers know better, but most ebay buyers don't know better and trust the seller is not charging them a 100% markup. Of course, in that case the seller deserves and hopefully gets a neg, and next time the byer knows better. But up until that point of seeing the actual postage, the buyer was taking a leap of faith that the seller is being truthful. Have you ever purchased mail order prior to Ebay? Even ebay says sellers are permitted to charge a handling fee. Esp with Atari games which cost what $1 or $2 on average most sellers wouldn't offer them at all if they had to charge exactr shipping on a $1 game what is left after fees taking into account the ones that didn't sell. A scam is when you are decieved. When I sell you a game and sell you a copy instead. When shipping is clearly listed you are not scammed. You are either a first time buyer OR just too lazy to read the description. Ebay now lets you compare items and items can be sorted by total price (price+shipping) People gripe about some real problems but to gripe about about shipping costs when you clearly see them and bid anyway is like complaining that fire is hot as you stick your hand in the oven without an oven mit. Those sellers who charge a fee do so to survive and they will not change unless ebay boots them. If that happens they start a new one. If they sell less items guess what the shipping goies up. Sure you can neg them but now guys like Ian get neged as well and it is now harder to tell someone like him from someone with multiple accounts who lets all the negs fall off on one while he lists with another. The only benefit is that Jetset can now leave a bunch of negs without getting one in return. Nothing else will change for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerG Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I continue to buy off Ebay, but I haven't sold anything since the ridiculous feedback change. It is now a system with no checks and balances tilted in favor of the buyer. I did join ChasetheChuckwagon. I have seen too many of these small auction sites come and go, but I do support it, check it, and hope it stays around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamTR Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 Still no idea why anyone complains about shipping costs if they are clearly upfront in the auction. I mean, Buyatari is right, this is normal service for Wal-Mart, Sears, K-Mart, anyone you buy stuff from online is going to implement a handling charge. If you have employees doing your stuff for you, you aren't supposed to chrage handling fees? With gas prices going up and up, you think the airlines are running scams by charging for bags too? Should not even be in the equation here. I've bought thousands of items off eBay and sold thousands of items off eBay. There is absolutely no protection for people to be warned of unsavory buyers with possible Paypal scamming potential. At the very least, this feedback was protection built in for overseas scammers, but now they can run rampant. If you haven't sold tons of items, and only bought a few on eBay, but continue to gripe at each and every thread, maybe you should just buy stuff from the store and not deal with online trading. Feedback system is just an atrocity now, there really is no point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetset Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 (edited) Well sellers will continue the charge of "the amount is stated", and buyers feel differently. The debate will likely never be resolved. Bottom line though, for buyers the feedback change is the best thing ebay has done in years. Sure there's going to be the odd situation like Ianoid had, but all in all it's going to prevent the bs that sellers have been pulling for years. Or at least now other buyers will be able to have warning beforehand. I'll still never understand why sellers have to decieve and inflate shipping, but now they'll get the neg/neutral they deserve for doing so. If you're only here to peddle your wares and advertise your ebay sales, and don't understand why buyers dont like being ripped off, and continue to defend this tactic in every thread, maybe you should open a website where you can get away with it. It ain't happening on ebay anymore. The feedback system finally makes sense now. Unless you're a seller that rips people off. Edited June 14, 2008 by jetset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroogur Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 (edited) Speaking as a buyer i will offer this explanation as to why folks get mad about shipping and it is plain and simple: People go to ebay looking for a bargain like a giant flea market right in your home we understand the item will cost money to ship what we don't understand is why shipping is stated in the auction is say $10 and when we get said item it's wrapped in used kleenex and stamped with $1.43 postage that right there is the problem. If we never find out that it cost $1.43 to ship then we are blissfully unaware. Some folks are quick to say "we'll you knew the shipping up front" or "don't like the shipping don't buy" or suggest trying to haggle the shipping cost and those statements are all well and good. If ebay really wanted to address the problem they would make two slots to fill out one for the actual shipping cost and the secondary for the handling cost this would give the buyer better protection from getting gouged by some gluttonous pig seller who figures this item may not sell for a good enough price so i'll just pad the shipping! And if the shipping is $1.50 and the handling is $10.00 you as the buyer can either haggle or just move on But what if the seller lies when he fills out the shipping info? well here's the cool part if the seller fudges the numbers and the postage is on the package and it don't match you have instant proof and can file a complaint with ebay against the scumbag seller! I also sell on ebay and i never charge handling fee's as they are BS for a private seller to ask for(you can very well drop that package off on your way to work and packing materials are easy enough to scrounge for). However if you sell in large volume and or have employees then i can understand a handling fee because packing materials,fuel and manpower do cost money when i list an auction i pack then weigh the item then get the proper postage listed on the auction i ship either priority mail or UPS and by God thats what my customers get! none of this charge for priority and send media crap. Edited June 14, 2008 by kroogur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hex65000 Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I also sell on ebay and i never charge handling fee's as they are BS for a private seller to ask for(you can very well drop that package off on your way to work and packing materials are easy enough to scrounge for). However if you sell in large volume and or have employees then i can understand a handling fee because packing materials,fuel and manpower do cost money when i list an auction i pack then weigh the item then get the proper postage listed on the auction i ship either priority mail or UPS and by God thats what my customers get! none of this charge for priority and send media crap. Yes now! I've been doing this for a while as a private seller and since I've tried pushing a bunch of my extras on the CTCW, I've stuck with a similar policy and while I suspect that some people are turned off by paying for priority mail or whatever, they can't complain about me ripping them off for shipping. Because when that box shows up at their door. it will have a confirmation sticker on it and it will tell them that they paid the actual price. In a way, I view it as an indication that the contents of the auction have been dealt with in good faith. It's horribly important in this hobby and especially when you're trying to sell stuff on a startup site -- because a bad-faith action is magnified across a much smaller seller base. What I've been doing is when i weigh the box after the auction is I record the weight (if i remember to) that way if there's an accusation that I'm inflating, I can readily point them at the USPS web site and they can look up the price v/s weight themselves. I just shipped a box that I think just barely put itself into the next weight slot up and I charged the guy appropriately, but if it went under what I quoted, he was gonna have to get the difference back. Otherwise i just violated my own fairly clear shipping terms. Hex. [ Well, it's time to start the real work... ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwackery Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 This pretty much sums it up for me, too, and I agree 100%. Thanks to kroogur! Speaking as a buyer i will offer this explanation as to why folks get mad about shipping and it is plain and simple: People go to ebay looking for a bargain like a giant flea market right in your home we understand the item will cost money to ship what we don't understand is why shipping is stated in the auction is say $10 and when we get said item it's wrapped in used kleenex and stamped with $1.43 postage that right there is the problem.If we never find out that it cost $1.43 to ship then we are blissfully unaware. Some folks are quick to say "we'll you knew the shipping up front" or "don't like the shipping don't buy" or suggest trying to haggle the shipping cost and those statements are all well and good. If ebay really wanted to address the problem they would make two slots to fill out one for the actual shipping cost and the secondary for the handling cost this would give the buyer better protection from getting gouged by some gluttonous pig seller who figures this item may not sell for a good enough price so i'll just pad the shipping! And if the shipping is $1.50 and the handling is $10.00 you as the seller can either haggle or just move on But what if the seller lies when he fills out the shipping info? well here's the cool part if the seller fudges the numbers and the postage is on the package and it don't match you have instant proof and can file a complaint with ebay against the scumbag seller! I also sell on ebay and i never charge handling fee's as they are BS for a private seller to ask for(you can very well drop that package off on your way to work and packing materials are easy enough to scrounge for). However if you sell in large volume and or have employees then i can understand a handling fee because packing materials,fuel and manpower do cost money when i list an auction i pack then weigh the item then get the proper postage listed on the auction i ship either priority mail or UPS and by God thats what my customers get! none of this charge for priority and send media crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udisi Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I agree that if you know the price up front in an auction, you're not being scammed if it actually costs less to ship. You agreed to pay the price in the auction. The auctions I do get pissed as, is when it says $5 for PRIORITY MAIL, and I get a padded envelope for $1.47 First Class, or a Media Mail package 2 weeks later. If is says priority, it should come priority. If it says $9 for 1st class fine, but if it says priority, that's what I expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted June 14, 2008 Author Share Posted June 14, 2008 I agree that if you know the price up front in an auction, you're not being scammed if it actually costs less to ship. You agreed to pay the price in the auction. The auctions I do get pissed as, is when it says $5 for PRIORITY MAIL, and I get a padded envelope for $1.47 First Class, or a Media Mail package 2 weeks later. If is says priority, it should come priority. If it says $9 for 1st class fine, but if it says priority, that's what I expect. This is simply deceptive, I agree it's lame. But it's not a scam, even if you feel scammed. As long as what I wanted was shipped and arrived in good condition, I can't complain. Sometimes shipping prices suck, I hate them, I move on. I use Endicia and for domestic shipping you can use a Stealth Endicia, which doesn't show the price. For international shipping, unfortunately you can't do that. I think the Stealth thing helps me get less complaints and ill will as a seller. Note that my policy is cost+75 cents for domestic and cost+$1 for international (paperwork literally takes me more time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I agree that if you know the price up front in an auction, you're not being scammed if it actually costs less to ship. You agreed to pay the price in the auction. The auctions I do get pissed as, is when it says $5 for PRIORITY MAIL, and I get a padded envelope for $1.47 First Class, or a Media Mail package 2 weeks later. If is says priority, it should come priority. If it says $9 for 1st class fine, but if it says priority, that's what I expect. This is simply deceptive, I agree it's lame. But it's not a scam, even if you feel scammed. As long as what I wanted was shipped and arrived in good condition, I can't complain. Sometimes shipping prices suck, I hate them, I move on. I use Endicia and for domestic shipping you can use a Stealth Endicia, which doesn't show the price. For international shipping, unfortunately you can't do that. I think the Stealth thing helps me get less complaints and ill will as a seller. Note that my policy is cost+75 cents for domestic and cost+$1 for international (paperwork literally takes me more time). Well if he SAYS priority and it doesn't get shipped priorty then you aren't getting what you paid for and you have a reason to bitch even if he charges exact shipping. If he says flat rate or other or something else then you don't no matter what he charged. The argument that if you pay $9 shipping and the seller paid $4 to ship then you are being ripped off is just retarded. By the same logic whenever you bid on FREE SHIPPING items you are now stealing from the seller and ripping him off. So now you guys who hate high shipping will give sellers who charge excess shipping negs. The clearly listed shipping wasn't enough to prevent you from bidding why would several negs in his feedback that say "high shipping" matter? The real reason you guys love this is you just wan't to complain and think you will now be heard but you won't. Everyone will have negs and they just won't mean as much. If those seller lose sales shipping goes up not down so you have just made it worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holygrailvideogames.com Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 Do y'all think that, as the economy here in the US steadily worsens, there has been a general decline in the quality of service, and a rise in the general snarkiness of people, across the board? The one thing that I have noticed as the economy has gotten worse is that more people are shipping carts and even systems media mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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