New Controller Standard for 2600

[horseboy]

As far as the layout goes, I am not sure that the stick on the right side is the way to go. It would be sweet for games like Tron and whatnot, but I doubt many people would like it regular gaming. Very few arcade games or home console sticks used a layout with the stick on the right. I think it would be a very unpopular choice. except maybe for lefties.

 

I might have a solution though. A switch could easily be added that would switch the up/down and left/right switches on the sticks and also switch buttons 1 and 3 (even the pinball flippers if they make it into the final design). That way you could just flip a switch and turn the stick around and use it any way you like. Obviously, the spinner wouldn't need to be switched.

 

Just a thought.

[mos6507]

I might have a solution though. A switch could easily be added that would switch the up/down and left/right switches on the sticks and also switch buttons 1 and 3 (even the pinball flippers if they make it into the final design). That way you could just flip a switch and turn the stick around and use it any way you like. Obviously, the spinner wouldn't need to be switched.

 

That's a good idea, but you'd want the cable probably coming out the side instead of the back so that when you flip it, it doesn't then stick out at you. It's either that or just duplicate the buttons and flipper on both sides, assuming there aren't any side effects from doing that.

[horseboy]

That's a good idea, but you'd want the cable probably coming out the side instead of the back so that when you flip it, it doesn't then stick out at you. It's either that or just duplicate the buttons and flipper on both sides, assuming there aren't any side effects from doing that.

 

 

I thought about the cord thing, and coming out of the side would seem to be the best solution. It shouldn't matter much as this seems like it will be a lap/coffee table controller.

[Zonie]

As far as the layout goes, I am not sure that the stick on the right side is the way to go. It would be sweet for games like Tron and whatnot, but I doubt many people would like it regular gaming. Very few arcade games or home console sticks used a layout with the stick on the right. I think it would be a very unpopular choice. except maybe for lefties.

 

I might have a solution though. A switch could easily be added that would switch the up/down and left/right switches on the sticks and also switch buttons 1 and 3 (even the pinball flippers if they make it into the final design). That way you could just flip a switch and turn the stick around and use it any way you like. Obviously, the spinner wouldn't need to be switched.

 

Just a thought.

 

Good idea. One thing that I have come to realize is that I prefer to use my dextrous hand (right in my case) to operate the buttons. Think about the last time you played Galaga.

 

Also, this is only an "electronic/electrical" specification. People can build this and lay it out any they feel. It's the interface and signal manipulation that is key here.

[A.J. Franzman]

Very few arcade games or home console sticks used a layout with the stick on the right. I think it would be a very unpopular choice. except maybe for lefties.

Sacrilege! My console of choice (VCS/2600) uses the stick right/button left layout, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The stick is (and should be) the primary control, located for the more dexterous hand. First Nintendo got it backwards with their "brick" pad, then for reasons unknown they left it that way, then somebody realized that righties could handle more than 2 buttons with their right hands, then BAM! suddenly everything's gotta have umpteen gazillion buttons, plethorae of arcane "combo moves" involving most of those buttons, and now it seems the world will never recover.

[horseboy]

Very few arcade games or home console sticks used a layout with the stick on the right. I think it would be a very unpopular choice. except maybe for lefties.

Sacrilege! My console of choice (VCS/2600) uses the stick right/button left layout, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The stick is (and should be) the primary control, located for the more dexterous hand. First Nintendo got it backwards with their "brick" pad, then for reasons unknown they left it that way, then somebody realized that righties could handle more than 2 buttons with their right hands, then BAM! suddenly everything's gotta have umpteen gazillion buttons, plethorae of arcane "combo moves" involving most of those buttons, and now it seems the world will never recover.

 

 

Well, that isn't really what I am talking about. I was meaning the arcade style sticks, and I don't consider the standard 2600 stick one of those. It is set up perfectly for what it is. I was speaking on sticks that sit on you lap or on a table, not one that you hold in your hands. The NES Advantage is a good example of what I am talking about. The Sega Master system arcade style stick is the only one I know of with the buttons on the left. Very few arcade games had buttons only on the left side. There are several single player games like Burgertime that have buttons on both sides, but aside from those 98% of the games had the stick on the left and the buttons on the right.

 

PS. The NES pads are some of the greatest controllers ever.

Edited July 16, 2008 by horseboy

[Zonie]

Very few arcade games or home console sticks used a layout with the stick on the right. I think it would be a very unpopular choice. except maybe for lefties.

Sacrilege! My console of choice (VCS/2600) uses the stick right/button left layout, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The stick is (and should be) the primary control, located for the more dexterous hand. First Nintendo got it backwards with their "brick" pad, then for reasons unknown they left it that way, then somebody realized that righties could handle more than 2 buttons with their right hands, then BAM! suddenly everything's gotta have umpteen gazillion buttons, plethorae of arcane "combo moves" involving most of those buttons, and now it seems the world will never recover.

 

 

Well, that isn't really what I am talking about. I was meaning the arcade style sticks, and I don't consider the standard 2600 stick one of those. It is set up perfectly for what it is. I was speaking on sticks that sit on you lap or on a table, not one that you hold in your hands. The NES Advantage is a good example of what I am talking about. The Sega Master system arcade style stick is the only one I know of with the buttons on the left. Very few arcade games had buttons only on the left side. There are several single player games like Burgertime that have buttons on both sides, but aside from those 98% of the games had the stick on the left and the buttons on the right.

 

PS. The NES pads are some of the greatest controllers ever.

 

 

Horseboy is correct. this is more of an arcade type of controller. AJ, We're only talking about 3 buttons. Enough to satisfy the missile command type games and such, not the uber-crazy fighting games. This is a VCS, simple games...

[Zonie]

Ok Folks, I think this is probably about it. BigO Had a good idea to add a DPDT switch so that the spinner can be switched between the extra button inputs and the standard driving controller inputs.

 

Here it is. The first "Open Source" Standard Homebrew controller. I'd like to Freeze the design specs if everyone who is interested has given their inputs. Thanks all for the collaboration. Now we need to build one and someone can code a test program for it.

 

The NexGen 2600 Controller

 

Layout:

 

Schematic:

Edited July 18, 2008 by Zonie

[mos6507]

Last important detail. When the spinner is in driving controller mode, will it pass through the unused stick signals from the stick (left and right)?

 

For driving games it might be nice if each button also had a matching footpedal jack. Then maybe you could use a MIDI sustain pedal?

[Zonie]

Last important detail. When the spinner is in driving controller mode, will it pass through the unused stick signals from the stick (left and right)?

 

For driving games it might be nice if each button also had a matching footpedal jack. Then maybe you could use a MIDI sustain pedal?

Yes, it will use those signals.

 

As for foot pedal jacks, that too is a good idea, but I think I'd leave those to people to put on themselves. When I considered it, it was for a gas pedal, then I thought "well it needs a steering wheel attachment too." sound of record needle scratching then I realized that crossed the line of K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid)

[BigO]

Last important detail. When the spinner is in driving controller mode, will it pass through the unused stick signals from the stick (left and right)?

 

For driving games it might be nice if each button also had a matching footpedal jack. Then maybe you could use a MIDI sustain pedal?

Yes, it will use those signals.

 

As for foot pedal jacks, that too is a good idea, but I think I'd leave those to people to put on themselves. When I considered it, it was for a gas pedal, then I thought "well it needs a steering wheel attachment too." sound of record needle scratching then I realized that crossed the line of K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid)

I see the physical layer as presented here as simply a suggestion for implementation that can be accomplished with commonly available parts.

 

The most important aspect of this to me is the definition of the electrical control schemes rather than the definition of a physical controller. To me, it defines a set of signals, extended beyond the current standard schemes, that a game programmer can exploit and have a reasonable expectation that others will be able to play the game. People have known for a long time that two more buttons can be added to a joystick, but without a standard like this one catching on, it's highly unlikely that a homebrew programmer or hacker will produce a game that relied on any such scheme.

 

Following the electrical signal portion of this idea, I could theoretically build an electronic adapter that let me take the outputs from a modern serial connection type controller and translate it to these signals. Or I could implement some of the buttons with microswitches that strap to the bottom of my shoe. Or I could build the driving controller portion of this standard using the steering column I took out of my 1950 Chevy and use the horn switch as a fire button. I could build my controller just like the one depicted in this thread, but add phono jacks to allow me to plug in a potenitometer to use as a paddle control on classic games.

 

Since it's an "open" standard, a programmer could choose to produce the game and manufacture a controller and sell them as a package.

Edited July 19, 2008 by BigO

[Zonie]

Last important detail. When the spinner is in driving controller mode, will it pass through the unused stick signals from the stick (left and right)?

 

For driving games it might be nice if each button also had a matching footpedal jack. Then maybe you could use a MIDI sustain pedal?

Yes, it will use those signals.

 

As for foot pedal jacks, that too is a good idea, but I think I'd leave those to people to put on themselves. When I considered it, it was for a gas pedal, then I thought "well it needs a steering wheel attachment too." sound of record needle scratching then I realized that crossed the line of K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid)

I see the physical layer as presented here as simply a suggestion for implementation that can be accomplished with commonly available parts.

 

The most important aspect of this to me is the definition of the electrical control schemes rather than the definition of a physical controller. To me, it defines a set of signals, extended beyond the current standard schemes, that a game programmer can exploit and have a reasonable expectation that others will be able to play the game. People have known for a long time that two more buttons can be added to a joystick, but without a standard like this one catching on, it's highly unlikely that a homebrew programmer or hacker will produce a game that relied on any such scheme.

 

Following the electrical signal portion of this idea, I could theoretically build an electronic adapter that let me take the outputs from a modern serial connection type controller and translate it to these signals. Or I could implement some of the buttons with microswitches that strap to the bottom of my shoe. Or I could build the driving controller portion of this standard using the steering column I took out of my 1950 Chevy and use the horn switch as a fire button. I could build my controller just like the one depicted in this thread, but add phono jacks to allow me to plug in a potenitometer to use as a paddle control on classic games.

 

Since it's an "open" standard, a programmer could choose to produce the game and manufacture a controller and sell them as a package.

:lol:

 

He gets it.

[BigO]

I think it would be interesting to hear from some 2600 game programmers who, due to standard controller limitations, had game ideas that they couldn't implement or produced games with compromised control schemes or anyone who has an idea for a hack that would improve an existing game by using a more advanced control scheme.

 

If a programmer produces a game or at least presents an idea that uses a controller based on this proposed standard that I like well enough, I'll find the time to build a controller to play it. I have an arcade style controller sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to become useful.

[supercat]

Since it's an "open" standard, a programmer could choose to produce the game and manufacture a controller and sell them as a package.

 

I would think the best approach would probably be to find some type of controller for a different system which is (1) suitable for whatever gaming functions are required, (2) readily and cheaply available in sufficient quantities to meet any possible market, and (3) easy enough to work with electrically to allow a reasonably-simple adapter.

 

I've sometimes thought that analog joysticks would be ideal for some games, provided that the interface converted them into a binary value that could be read fairly easily (e.g. using the 'paddle dump' signal as a trigger, output the four MSB's of the X position on the joystick pins and low on the button input for 20 cycles or so, then the four LSB's of the X position and high on the button input for 20 cycles, then likewise with the Y position, and then button inputs four at a time. If there are eight buttons, then reading deluxe controllers in both joystick ports would only require about two scan lines.

 

How well available are old-style PC controllers? That might be the easiest "standard" to work with.

[BigO]

I would think the best approach would probably be to find some type of controller for a different system which is (1) suitable for whatever gaming functions are required, (2) readily and cheaply available in sufficient quantities to meet any possible market, and (3) easy enough to work with electrically to allow a reasonably-simple adapter.

 

I've sometimes thought that analog joysticks would be ideal for some games, provided that the interface converted them into a binary value that could be read fairly easily (e.g. using the 'paddle dump' signal as a trigger, output the four MSB's of the X position on the joystick pins and low on the button input for 20 cycles or so, then the four LSB's of the X position and high on the button input for 20 cycles, then likewise with the Y position, and then button inputs four at a time. If there are eight buttons, then reading deluxe controllers in both joystick ports would only require about two scan lines.

 

How well available are old-style PC controllers? That might be the easiest "standard" to work with.

 

As much as I'd enojoy discussing it, for fear of diluting this idea I'll refrain from discussing that prospect in detail here. Analog, passive PC controllers are becoming rarer, but by no means difficult to find. I saw 3 today in one thrift store. I bought one.

 

One thing I like about Zonie's proposed standard is that it can be implemented by mechanically and electrically linking stock 2600 controllers in an arcade style controller and adding a few off-the-shelf buttons and switches.

 

I think I can speak for Zonie in saying that one of the primary goals was to make it all just basic wiring so that it's easy for most anyone to build. In order for a standard such as this to be adopted by programmers, there needs to be a controller available to the community at large. It's unlikely that anyone is going to mass produce something like this so making it hardware-homebrew friendly seems like the proposal at hand is the better shot at expanding controller functionality and opening up new game possibilities.

 

I think if we could find a way to mass produce an expanded controller to sell for something in the $20 range, and a small library of games was released at the same time as the controller, then pretty much any standard would have a chance (as long as it was "open").

Edited July 22, 2008 by BigO

[mos6507]

I've sometimes thought that analog joysticks would be ideal for some games

 

The controller standard being mapped out here merely exploits the latent capabilities the 2600 always had, which is quite elegant really.

 

I think the process of an adapter funneling a controller's buttons and stick positions through the 5 bits of digital IO available (the trigger and 4 joystick lines) would be a serious kludge.

 

PC gameport is something Chimera was going to support in a simpler protocol that could use any number of 8-bit hotspots. Also I think some of the more advanced controllers would require a more sophisticated kernel, something that Chimera could provide.

[Zonie]

I've sometimes thought that analog joysticks would be ideal for some games

 

The controller standard being mapped out here merely exploits the latent capabilities the 2600 always had, which is quite elegant really.

 

I think the process of an adapter funneling a controller's buttons and stick positions through the 5 bits of digital IO available (the trigger and 4 joystick lines) would be a serious kludge.

 

PC gameport is something Chimera was going to support in a simpler protocol that could use any number of 8-bit hotspots. Also I think some of the more advanced controllers would require a more sophisticated kernel, something that Chimera could provide.

 

We're using the Analog inputs as well. If it works for the CBS booster, then it will work for this.

 

Big-O has me read right above, but then again we are on the same page and have had a long chat about this.

 

An open electrical standard is the way to go. Looking forward to the hacks to come out!

[supercat]

It's unlikely that anyone is going to mass produce something like this so making it hardware-homebrew friendly seems like the proposal at hand is the better shot at expanding controller functionality and opening up new game possibilities.

 

The majority of the potential audience isn't going to want to solder anything. I would expect that an adapter (similar to the Redemption, but in reverse) would be far easier to produce semi-commercially than anything resembling a decent controller. I would expect it to contain a DB-9 plug, a DB-15 plug, some resistors, a bypass cap, and a 20-pin microcontroller (about $2 or so). If there were enough code space in the cartridge, it would even be possible to have the 2600 program the controller in-circuit so there'd be no need for anything fancy there.

 

How much more hardware-homebrew-friendly could such a project be?

[A.J. Franzman]

a DB-9 plug, a DB-15 plug

Please use correct terminology! (DE-9 and DA-15)

 

Wikipedia: D-subminiature

 

</pedant>

[BigO]

It's unlikely that anyone is going to mass produce something like this so making it hardware-homebrew friendly seems like the proposal at hand is the better shot at expanding controller functionality and opening up new game possibilities.

 

The majority of the potential audience isn't going to want to solder anything. I would expect that an adapter (similar to the Redemption, but in reverse) would be far easier to produce semi-commercially than anything resembling a decent controller. I would expect it to contain a DB-9 plug, a DB-15 plug, some resistors, a bypass cap, and a 20-pin microcontroller (about $2 or so). If there were enough code space in the cartridge, it would even be possible to have the 2600 program the controller in-circuit so there'd be no need for anything fancy there.

 

How much more hardware-homebrew-friendly could such a project be?

 

I see merit in both approaches. I don't think that the Zonitroller and the Supercadapter need be mutually exclusive.

 

Say I build a basic Zonitroller according to the proposed standard using old Atari crap and a shoddy bomb casing filled with used pinball machine parts and I whip me up a super-duper new game, "Itchy and Scratchy's Sunnyvale Vacation" which sells tens of thousands of copies to people who are thrilled beyond measure to lop off several appendages in the process of cobbling together their own glowing-red-fireplace-poker-joystick to play my hot new release. You, however, enduring the Zonitroller as though it were a lumberjack "hot saw" competition chainsaw running just inside your left ear, see an opportunity to promote your own control scheme by building an adapter that emulates the wildly popular Zonitroller modes as well as implementing your own new digital data transfer mode (henceforth to be known as DDT2600) and you release the Supercadapter as a package deal with your new killer app, "Pinky and the Brain Games" which sells like mad and makes you filthy rich leaving you with ample time to try to take over the world using an Atari 2600 in various brilliant but humorously ill-fated schemes.

Edited July 22, 2008 by BigO

[BigO]

For a less silly interpretation of my previous posting:

 

I see merit in both approaches. I don't think that the Zonitroller and the Supercadapter need to be mutually exclusive. I see the Zonie approach as more accessible to the average guy. Its simple and makes significant functionality enhancements. The proposed design does not preclude the functionality from being implemented through an adapter, homebrew or commercial, nor does it preclude the inclusion of such functionality in any device.

 

If engineered as I envision it, it would be just a matter of programming to give the sophisticated Supercadapter the ability to emulate any of the functionality contained in the Zonitroller standard, emulate all of the OEM standard controllers and implement the digital data transfer (DDT?) that you propose.

Edited July 22, 2008 by BigO

[gdement]

I hesitate to start this tangent, but I think it's important:

 

Schematic:

 

Is there any reason this 3 button controller wouldn't work on the 7800? It seems it would work, but I'd like to be sure.

 

I've attached a schematic that Dan Boris posted in another thread, showing the controller circuitry on the 7800 console:

There was a discussion there about the 7800 having 2 different modes. Possibly the 7800 would need to go into "1-button mode" to see the 3 buttons independently. No problem as long as that works.

[BigO]

That's a good question.

 

There's too much I don't know about the 7800 to say what all will happen, but I would not build a controller by the current version of the proposed standard and try to play 7800 games with it based on what I learned from Mr. Boris in the other thread referenced above. I would feel somewhat safer playing 2600 games on my 7800 with the controller. Then again, I'm not as attached to my 7800 as others might be.

 

I'd say the subject bears looking into further.

Edited July 23, 2008 by BigO

[Zonie]

a DB-9 plug, a DB-15 plug

Please use correct terminology! (DE-9 and DA-15)

 

Wikipedia: D-subminiature

 

</pedant>

 

20 years in electronics and we have always called them DB-whatever... Everyone knows what he means.

 

I have never seen that wikipedia version of the definition of these. Strange...

[BigO]

a DB-9 plug, a DB-15 plug

Please use correct terminology! (DE-9 and DA-15)

 

Wikipedia: D-subminiature

 

</pedant>

 

20 years in electronics and we have always called them DB-whatever... Everyone knows what he means.

 

I have never seen that wikipedia version of the definition of these. Strange...

 

Everyone knows what he means . . . unless he uses the proper DE-9 and DA-15 terminology.