Elerach Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hey! First time posting in this forum, and im a little scared... (dont hurt me!) anyway, i have a question for you guys. i was wondering, what is the most accessible 8-bit? i've been seriously thinking about investing in a commodore 64, or one of the *various* atari 8-bit models. but, on both the hardware and software sides, im pretty clueless. i would mostly be using it as a gaming system, (although who knows, i might end up screwing around in basic a few times) so, i would like to stray away from any hard-modding (soldering, e.t.c), although anything SMALL is always possible. what i really want is kind of a "out of the box" experience, but with capabities to upgrade, if i ever choose to delve deeper into your world i guess, in a nutshell, im basically asking, what would the most accesible 8-bit computer be for a super noob like me? Go ahead and fire off some technical stuff at me too, as long as my head doesnt blow up first, i'll try and understand to my capabilities oh, and also, go ahead and recommend the different atari models to me, i know many of the differences. Thanks in advance, -Elerach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 For something you're not going to bother modding, the 130XE would be machine of choice since it's got 128K RAM and has the monitor port with colour/luma. As a mod-friendly machine, the 1200XL is supposedly the best due to having plenty of room. Then again, they're rarer than practically all others so modding can devalue it as a collectors machine. Most/all (?) 800XLs have practically all the ICs socketed which makes them very easy to work on, plus they have better construction and board quality than XE machines so are more durable and more forgiving if you make any little mistakes. The XEGS has the (questionable) versatility of detached keyboard, although XE machines in general are noted for poorer construction quality, less reliabliity and pretty crap keyboards. As for recommendation - the best setup generally would be an 800XL or 1200XL with more RAM added. 64K as stock will run virtually all legacy software (ie before the mid 1990s), but lots of the newer stuff runs better on, or demands more than 64K RAM. As for what you should get - grab what you can, demand is up and rarity increases. Minimum 64K machine, so try for 800XL or 130XE. Grab 1200XL if you can afford it, settle for 65XE or XEGS if one shows up. Mod-wise the bare minimum you absolutely need is APE/SIO2PC and it can be done totally externally without modding anything if required. I made my first one that way, but built the second into my 130XE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameEngine Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 XEGS is the most accessible. It has cinch connectors for video and audio and cartridge slot is on top. As soon as your interest grow you can connect keyboard and other peripherals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almost Rice Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The XEGS, 65XE, 800xl, and 1200xl are functionally equivalent in the unmodified form. Of these the 800xl is the most abundant. Most of the 800xl are socketed. XE systems are not usually socket. If you want cheapest to play with, 800xl with sio2pc. This setup should cost you the least and get you going the fastest. To get Svideo you would have to mod it though. If you would never ever expand the system yourself and want the best stock system you can get, 130xe is the way to go. If you want to expand as needed and have the facilities to do everything yourself, 1200xl is the way to go. If you do not want to get the Atari/Commodore monitor cable, XEGS has RCA ports for video and audio. If you are going to use TV signal it would not matter. It all depend on what you are going to do with the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Most of the 800xl are socketed. XE systems are not usually socket. I have 9 800xl's and not a single one of them is socketed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) If you won't be typing a lot the 130XE is the only system that came with 128K so it will run a few more programs. The drawback is that it's keyboard isn't as nice as older models. The 800xl wouldn't run programs that require 128K but it has a better keyboard. The 1200xl has arguably the nicest keyboard... but the standard ROM has some compatibility issues so modding would be a priority. sio2pc would be the cheapest approach to mass storage but you'd be tied to a PC. sio2sd frees you of the PC but will be more expensive by far. <edit> I have 2 130XE machines btw. If I want to program any old 8 bit I do it on a PC and test on an emulator so keyboards aren't as important to me. Edited July 24, 2008 by JamesD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Most of the 800xl are socketed. XE systems are not usually socket. I have 9 800xl's and not a single one of them is socketed Same here... I think 2 of 10 are socketed and one of the socketed one's has a bad PBI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerach Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) Thanks for all the replies, guys! okay, i *THINK* i *KIND OF* know what sio2pc is, but could somebody give me a link, or explain to me EXACTLY what it is? Edited July 24, 2008 by Elerach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almost Rice Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Most of the 800xl are socketed. XE systems are not usually socket. I have 9 800xl's and not a single one of them is socketed Same here... I think 2 of 10 are socketed and one of the socketed one's has a bad PBI. Really? I bought all mine back in the 80s and only 1 of my 4 are not socketed. Of the socketed ones a few of the OS and basic roms are not socketed. The not socketed one is a Rev D board and the only one of my 800XL to have Rev C basic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Thanks for all the replies, guys! okay, i *THINK* i *KIND OF* know what sio2pc is, but could somebody give me a link, or explain to me EXACTLY what it is? http://www.atarimax.com/sio2pc/documentation/ A must have for the Atari 8bits IMO Simply it is an interface between a PC or MAC and the SIO port of an Atari 8bit computer. You can store Disc images of Atari games etc on your PC hard drive, and using a free (or you can upgrade to a registered version) bit of software called APE you can select the game that you want to load on your Atari. You then boot your Atari as normal and it will "see" your PC as an SIO device such as a Disc Drive. You can also use the SIO2PC to access your computers printer to print from the Atari or even get on a BBS board Worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urchlay Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The 1200xl has arguably the nicest keyboard... but the standard ROM has some compatibility issues so modding would be a priority. The 1200XL ROM is different, yes... but I think the compatibility issues are overstated. Is there a list somewhere of stuff that works on the 800XL ROM but not the 1200XL? Everything I've thrown at mine seems to work fine (mostly games). Another thing for the original poster to be aware of: The 1200XL's video output quality is the worst of all the Atari 8-bits. The s-video doesn't work (missing chroma signal, fixable by soldering 1 wire), the composite looks almost as bad as using RF on a TV, and even with the chroma fix, the s-video isn't much better than composite. If you're planning to get a 1200XL because you want to mod it, the Clearpic 2002 or S-Video 2.1 is the first hardware hacking you'll want to do (and well worth it: the video is beautiful afterwards). If all of the above is gobbledegook to you, then you probably don't want a 1200XL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 How much do you use the keyboard though, myself very little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 How much do you use the keyboard though, myself very little. Right. For me 128KB and s-video quality are important so... I vote for 130XE. As storage device, I use SIO2PC (usb version) and SIO2SD (a stand-alone solution that replaces floppy disks with an SD card). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGustafson Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 IMHO I have a 130xe 800xl and 1200xl. To start I'd suggest going for the 800xl. Never had one go bad (I have 6) and they can take a beating. I have one I bought at a yard sale thet looked like it had been run over. The shell was cracked and the keyboard was barely held in however the internals were all good and it works to this day. I've also never had any software that didn't work on it that I really wanted to run (due to the lower ram). The design also matches most of the hardware you will get for it as opposed to the XE line I only had one 130xe and I still can't figure out how it went bad. It's got no cosmetic damage and is clean as hell but one day it just quit on me so it's left kind of a bitter taste in my mouth for the xe line. Besides that they look flimsy and aren't nearly as cool looking as the xl line. I also have a 1200xl that I love but the downside is that it has issues running some programs and is extremelly rare to find. I found a listing on Craigslist and drown 100 miles to buy it off a guy at 2am just to make sure I got mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oswald Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 (edited) regarding software c64 has the most games out of all the 8bit home computers. you can look around here: www.lemon64.com, check the top40/100 games(under games link), or keep reloading the first page for various game reviews. the hardware: you dont have to worry about upgrades, as c64 software always targeted the stock machine, transferring games from pc is more problematic as with ataris tho. you will need to get a special cable or a special cartridge (and you cant get away without a disk drive either). ask/look around on the lemon64 forums there are lots of topics dealing with this. Edited July 26, 2008 by Oswald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 regarding software c64 has the most games out of all the 8bit home computers. you can look around here: www.lemon64.com, check the top40/100 games(under games link), or keep reloading the first page for various game reviews. the hardware: you dont have to worry about upgrades, as c64 software always targeted the stock machine, transferring games from pc is more problematic as with ataris tho. you will need to get a special cable or a special cartridge (and you cant get away without a disk drive either). ask/look around on the lemon64 forums there are lots of topics dealing with this. I picked up the cable for $10 and it works with the C128 and Plus/4 too. Just one thing... you have a choice of a couple different cables. There is a slight difference between the two but I don't remember what. I don't seem to remember any difficulty transferring files though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 I agree with Oswald that, if you are interested in games, C64 has the larger library. Regarding accessibility, Atari computers have many games on cartridges and it is easier to transfer programs from PC (SIO2PC also USB and Vista compatible) or use a stand-alone solution (SIO2SD). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
games-video Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 (edited) Don't forget the Apple ][, very easy accessable expansions slots, largest software library of the 8-bit computers. Edited August 3, 2008 by games-video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 Regarding accessibility, Atari computers have many games on cartridges and it is easier to transfer programs from PC (SIO2PC also USB and Vista compatible) or use a stand-alone solution (SIO2SD). The C64 has 64TPC (PC to IEC serial), MMC2IEC and the 1541 Ultimate, they do pretty much the same thing. Don't forget the Apple ][, very easy accessable expansions slots, largest software library of the 8-bit computers. i'd be interested in seeing actual numbers, remembering that we're talking games rather than software overall... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 On the 800xl socket subject I can say: Only the REV. A mainboards have all ic's on sockets. All other revisions don't have. There are later produced series with the 4 custom chips on socket, and there are series with only the Antic on socket. The only Atari computer that has (as far as i know) always the IC's on socket is the 600XL, which is also my absolute Favorite Atari 8bit computer. It is really a piece of cake to upgrade the 600xl to 64KB (probably the easiest upgrade ever) and the looks are fine. I'm thinking of upgrading my 600XL to 576KB soon. I have a 576KB 800xl, but I want it in a 600XL. I exchanged the 600XL keyboard (too cheap) with a very good 800XL keyboard. Yes I know... that makes the 600xl not a real 600xl anymore... but I really LOVE the design of the 600xl, and it is so cool: small, and all the ic's on socket. I have two brandnew 600xl's boxed... they are a very big treasure for me Greetz Marius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 (edited) The C64 has 64TPC (PC to IEC serial), MMC2IEC and the 1541 Ultimate, they do pretty much the same thing. MMC2IEC Limitations: No fast loader support. None of the Commodore DOS functions beside LOAD and SAVE works. Few, if any, D64 games with loaders work. 1541 Ultimate Price: €119 64TPC If you are talking about 64HDD, I have it: awful compared to SIO2PC (also usb, nice GUI, Vista compatible) SIO2PC and SIO2SD cost around $50 and have no limitations. Edited August 4, 2008 by Philsan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 (edited) The C64 has 64TPC (PC to IEC serial), MMC2IEC and the 1541 Ultimate, they do pretty much the same thing. MMC2IEC Limitations: No fast loader support. None of the Commodore DOS functions beside LOAD and SAVE works. Few, if any, D64 games with loaders work. 1541 Ultimate Price: €119 64TPC If you are talking about 64HDD, I have it: awful compared to SIO2PC (also usb, nice GUI, Vista compatible) SIO2PC and SIO2SD cost around $50 and have no limitations. C64 extra hardware: sold out ! no stock available Edited August 4, 2008 by Allas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 1541 UltimatePrice: €119 And for that price it simulates a disk drive that loads and saves to disk images, a 17XX series RAM expansion unit (wso those recent cracks of classic games that cache to expansion RAM will work significantly faster when loading levels), a Final Cartridge III or Action Replay 6 utility cartridge and there's even a header on the board that'll eventually connect it to the cassette port so it can simulate a C2N with TAP files. So since the question was about accessibility rather than cost anyway, that's seriously good going for the price tag. C64 extra hardware: sold out ! no stock available For now... must be because they're so popular. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 The 1200xl has arguably the nicest keyboard... but the standard ROM has some compatibility issues so modding would be a priority. The 1200XL ROM is different, yes... but I think the compatibility issues are overstated. Is there a list somewhere of stuff that works on the 800XL ROM but not the 1200XL? Everything I've thrown at mine seems to work fine (mostly games). I agree 100%. I have the 32-in-1 OS upgrade in my 1200XL now, so compatibility with every A8 version is what I have now, but before the upgrade I tried 100's of games/titles on my 1200XL and never had a single problem with compatibility. I think that the compatibility issues were really between the 800 and 1200XL, which is were this "incompatibility" myth stems from, as all the later XL models had the very same incompatibilities to the 800, but the 1200XL was the first, so it's incompatibility reputation is the one that lived on through mis/disinformation. In any case there are only about half a dozen programs between the 800 and later models that only work on the 800 without OS mods. So it's all very overated anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 TMR, it is a fact that if you want to perfectly simulate C64's disk drive you have to spend €119; moreover 1541 Ultimate is a product released only few months ago. Yes, you are right, the question was about accessibility rather than cost but I don't think the topic starter ("a super noob like me") would love to spend this amount of money just to play all beautiful C64 games. 1541 Ultimate has many interesting features but C64 doesn't have simple and cheap devices like Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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