ianoid Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) I've been dealing with this situation where the bidder thinks I'm shilling. Can you guys confirm that nobody except the bidder can see the high bid (as opposed to the winning bid), so this must be a coincidence? Bidder says: Hi ianoid, I have won and paid for the following item - xxxx. Whilst I am happy to be the winner, what I am not happy about is the bidding tactic. I placed a maximum bid of US$X.XX and just before the auction ended another bid $(X.XX-$1) was placed- exactly one bid lower. I know the seller can view a maximum bid whilst the auction is live, so I am mailing you to convince me this was a coincidence. I would rather get this out into the open, rather than leave you neutral feedback and give you the chance to comment. I am sorry but I am very unhappy about this. I don't mind paying the {my} max bid but I feel this is cheating. Look forward to your comments. yours sincerely, xxxx so I says: Dear xxxx, I actually can't see high bids- if I can, I don't know how, and I've been on the 'bay for like 10 years. I can't explain your coincidence. I just won something at less than $1 below my highest bid recently too, but I find that frequently other folks have similar thoughts about value for stuff I bid on. Anyway, I don't shill. I sell alot of stuff for pretty low amounts, don't know why I'd risk my eBay account for $10 or $20 with some kind of scam. I might also point out that this would make more sense if the high bid was your high bid as illustrated by this example: You bid $28.88 on something and then another bidder comes around and bids $28.50. The high bid would be yours at $28.88, as eBay will raise to the next bid increment or the closest high bid to it. Since you aren't a full increment above the second highest bidder, it just goes as high as it can. eBay might have made the high bid one bid increment below your highest, when in reality it was anywhere in that range. I didn't check the bid history, but sometimes people just bid a bunch to feel out the highest bidder and then give up when they realize the top was just too high to bother. The second highest bidder may not have realized this was your high bid. Anyway, there are a few explanations, I'm sorry you feel slighted. I would hate to get neutral for this, so if there's anything else I can do to convince you, I'll try. I hope you'll leave positive. eBay's feedback system is so broken, there's really not much I can do, aside from implore and take time to reason. I already mailed the record to you today by Airmail. You'll get positive feedback if you leave positive, automatically. so bidder says: Dear ianoid, Thanks for your detailed reply. There's a lot to digest reading it, and whilst you do come across as an honest seller, I am sorry I am still not convinced. e-Bay do not invent or 'alter bids'. They record actual amounts that bidders actually bid. I have never sold anything on the site myself, but I know people that have, and I have been told that sellers can see the bidding action, including the maximum bid. In my case my highest bid was one full increment above the second highest bidder - $XX.XX against $(XX.XX-1). It is just too close for me to be convinced, surely you must see my point. I just find hard to believe that a bidder would just bid $(XX.XX-1) as an unknown potential highest bid. Anyway I don't really know what else to say at this point, but I just want to reply to your message and also to say thanks for posting the record today. I would like you to reply to the key points that I have made though. so I says: Dear xxxx I can only say I am utterly baffled by the accusation, because even after auctions, I can't see the highest bid, let alone during the auctions. At the end of the auction, I can't see if you bid $100 or $50 or $31.37. I just see the highest bid, which according to eBay is 1 bid increment above the next highest bid. I think that this is just a coincidence. And I really do resent the accusation that I would shill for a few measly bucks. Take a look at all the other auctions I run, why would I shill on such a small item. Frankly I was amazed the record sold for as much as it did, I don't know the value of this stuff, I am just selling the records I bought when I was a kid. But in any case, there isn't much I can do. Only you can go through the effort to look into eBay's policies about displaying high bids, because I am nearly certain that no one can see the highest actual bid (NOT the winning bid), aside from the actual bidder. I have no why it would make sense for eBay to display the highest bid for the seller to see- that would ENCOURAGE shill bidding, and it would be totally dishonest on the seller and eBay's part. You seem like an experienced eBayer, and I'm amazed that with more than a hundred transactions that you would have such an axe to grind with me. No matter, there's not much I can do except provide service as an honest seller. Go ahead and contact eBay with this accusation before leaving feedback. I am certain that I will be admonished of the idea that I could see your bid and shill. If I could,would it make sense to do it so conspicuously? I would have to be a serious fool. Feedback cannot be retracted, it is very hurtful for me not to receive Positive when I do everything better than 99% of sellers. I've long since accepted that eBay's feedback system is broken and that no matter what I say or do there will be some folks who just cannot be pleased. I sincerely hope that you are not one of them. -ian Screwed up isn't? Don't know why I waste so much time with people. Oh, and all of these messages are from within 4 hours this morning. Edited August 25, 2008 by ianoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Probably best if you post the users name, so people can block the tool, who clearly doesn't understand how ebay and sniping works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamme Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Probably best if you post the users name, so people can block the tool, who clearly doesn't understand how ebay and sniping works. I love upping random auctions that I have no interest in buying (NOT!!! Just Kidding kidzzz!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christophero Sly Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) If I'm correctly understanding the buyer's description, it just sounds like his bid got proxy bid up to its maximum by a failed snipe. Nothing out of the ordinary there. It happens with nearly every auction. I suppose shill bidders could snipe the bid up, but that would seem, at best, to be a 50/50 proposition, and hardly worth the effort. Edited August 25, 2008 by Christophero Sly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 It's just a coincidence. I've sniped and won a few auctions so finely close to my highest bid it's spooky (we're talking less than $1 away from the max). The second highest bid has been another snipe, they just didn't quite put in enough or as soon as I did (another reason to be in slightly early). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classics Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) He just has buyers remorse. Nobody can see the proxy bid, even the seller. I've won plenty of auctions by less than a dollar at the snipe, its not unusual at all. Steve Edited August 25, 2008 by classics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Just so everybody knows his address so they can avoid him, here it is: 1001 Main st. Fantasyland Disneyland, FL 05434 Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atreyu187 Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 I didn't know I could see the bidders max bid. I have been on Ebay since 2002, guess you learn something new everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnukem Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 I would just offer to do a mutual agreement to not complete the transaction. you don't get charged a FVF fee and he does not have to pay then ad his to your banned bidders list. That may also block him from being able to leave bad feedback under e-bays new policy for non paying bidders and feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 Let's say he bid $28.79 max and he won it for $27.79. He felt that was too much of a coincidence, that I must have jacked it. That's what the $X and $X-1 thing is. And his winning bid was a weird number like that. But he already paid and I already sent out his item, before I even received a message! If things don't go well, I'll have no choice but to block him. I'll see if he neut's me. Later emails claim he wasn't planning to. It just sucks now because neut's count against you just like negs. Feedback system broken! Feedback system broken! Error! Error! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bratwurst Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Just tell his retarded ass to contact eBay support to confirm that sellers can't see someone's maximum bid before the auction ends. When you get a customer writing long winded and convoluted inquiries, you have to be terse and and deflect responsibility for their hallucinations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemoncurry Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 (edited) Neuts no longer count against you in your feedback score. It's just (positives/(positives+negatives)) now. I think they may still count against you in their internal "bad seller, should we suspend him?" calculations, but good sellers shouldn't have to worry about that. And of course those buyers that bother examining your feedback will still see it... There is no way to ever know, either during the auction or afterward, what the high bid really was, unless they tell you, or the winner happens to outbid the next highest bidder by less than one increment. Edited August 25, 2008 by lemoncurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemoncurry Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Also, since you can see the second high bidder's identity, you could write him asking him to write numb nuts to tell him he's not you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holygrailvideogames.com Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 I have lost several auctions by $.01. I even had one auction where I raised the bid by over $200 in the final 5 seconds and lost by 1 cent. It happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemoncurry Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 (edited) I have lost several auctions by $.01. I even had one auction where I raised the bid by over $200 in the final 5 seconds and lost by 1 cent. It happens. Oh yeah, that reminds me, on eBay's own forums, there's a bidding board, where there's a sniping thread where you can get "medals" for a one second snipe, a one cent snipe, a one second one cent snipe, and even a zero second snipe! The ultimate is a zero second one cent snipe! (Which I was one of the first to earn!) Edited August 26, 2008 by lemoncurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucebidder Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Sounds like the guy is a turd myself. I have openly accused sellers of schill bidding 8 times in 10 plus years on ebay but only when I was absolutely sure and ebay backed me up. YOu can't tell by one item. If he bought 25 items from you and one other user id was always exactly 1 bid less then I would start to wonder but with only one item WTF is he accusing you of. Also I wish someone would tell em how I could see the max bids people put on my stuff. I think the buyer must be a turd and his friend is obviously an a$$ too.. Good luck with that I would post his ID so the rest of us can block him... Actually I just thought about this maybe he accuses all the sellers of this, just to see if they will lower the price. I mean if your a seller of 500 items a month you might not want the hassle... Interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhwolfman Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Sounds like the guy is a turd myself. I have openly accused sellers of schill bidding 8 times in 10 plus years on ebay but only when I was absolutely sure and ebay backed me up. YOu can't tell by one item. If he bought 25 items from you and one other user id was always exactly 1 bid less then I would start to wonder but with only one item WTF is he accusing you of. Also I wish someone would tell em how I could see the max bids people put on my stuff. I think the buyer must be a turd and his friend is obviously an a$ too.. Good luck with that I would post his ID so the rest of us can block him... Actually I just thought about this maybe he accuses all the sellers of this, just to see if they will lower the price. I mean if your a seller of 500 items a month you might not want the hassle... Interesting... He is a little mamby pamby. If he leaves you a neg or neutural, Just leave him a pos but right in Caps a nice reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
video game addict Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I would of wrote him back and said the item is no longer available to him because he is such a tool and that you are going to offer it to the 2nd place bidder who understands how ebay works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LS650 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I would just offer to do a mutual agreement to not complete the transaction. I agree! I don't understand why the OP is wasting time writing such long replies. A couple of times I've dealt with such idiots, and I've always told them "If you are unhappy, let's just call the auction off and I will repost it for someone else to win." Life is too short to piss around with morons like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Sounds like the guy is a turd myself. I have openly accused sellers of schill bidding 8 times in 10 plus years on ebay but only when I was absolutely sure and ebay backed me up. YOu can't tell by one item. If he bought 25 items from you and one other user id was always exactly 1 bid less then I would start to wonder but with only one item WTF is he accusing you of. Also I wish someone would tell em how I could see the max bids people put on my stuff. I think the buyer must be a turd and his friend is obviously an a$ too.. Good luck with that I would post his ID so the rest of us can block him... Actually I just thought about this maybe he accuses all the sellers of this, just to see if they will lower the price. I mean if your a seller of 500 items a month you might not want the hassle... Interesting... He is a little mamby pamby. If he leaves you a neg or neutural, Just leave him a pos but right in Caps a nice reply. I did just that and ebay ding me for policy / feedback abuse. Assholes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted August 27, 2008 Author Share Posted August 27, 2008 The guy ended up being pretty cool about it, and rechecked his math and realized he had screwed up logic. Seriously, I appreciate that because most eBayers with problems HAVE problems. Like the inability to check email, the inability to pay, the inability to think, the inability to reason, etc... Actually, it is theoretically possible to figure out what someone's bid is. You just bid less than one bid increments until the high bid doesn't go up a full increment. For example if the highest bidder is bidding 25.97, if you bid 25.90, the high bid will only be 25.97, instead of 26.90. Or does eBay force you to bid in full increments and would refuse that? Naw, that wouldn't make sense if you can win any auction by a penny. And what is with these fees? I just relisted a $40 item with a $50 BIN (some Pokemon carts) and the fee was $1.25? When will I learn and do the 'wagon? I guess I'm just afraid my common crap won't hold much attention there. I don't sell many rarities. Shame on me. Shame! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemoncurry Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 To outbid someone by a penny, you have to do it when the current proxy bid is at least one bid increment less than the bid you enter. You always have to bid by at least one bid increment, that's what bid increment means! From eBay's bid increment help page: Note: A bidder may be outbid by less than a full increment. This would happen if the winning bidder's maximum bid beats the second highest maximum by an amount less than the full increment. Here's an example. You're the first bidder and you place a maximum bid of $20.00. The bidding system will automatically bid on your behalf up to $20.00 against other bidders. When a second bidder places a maximum bid of $9.00, your bid will automatically be raised to $9.50. When a third bidder bids $20.01, this bidder becomes the high bidder because your maximum bid is only $20.00. It seems that the third bidder should be required to bid in 50-cent increments, which would be $20.50. But not in this case, because the third bidder needs only to exceed the next allowed bid amount of $10.00 ($9.50 plus $0.50). Since $20.01 is more than $10.00, the third bidder satisfies the bid requirement. Experienced bidders often use this technique of bidding a few pennies over the bid increment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucebidder Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 The guy ended up being pretty cool about it, and rechecked his math and realized he had screwed up logic. Seriously, I appreciate that because most eBayers with problems HAVE problems. Like the inability to check email, the inability to pay, the inability to think, the inability to reason, etc... Actually, it is theoretically possible to figure out what someone's bid is. You just bid less than one bid increments until the high bid doesn't go up a full increment. For example if the highest bidder is bidding 25.97, if you bid 25.90, the high bid will only be 25.97, instead of 26.90. Or does eBay force you to bid in full increments and would refuse that? Naw, that wouldn't make sense if you can win any auction by a penny. And what is with these fees? I just relisted a $40 item with a $50 BIN (some Pokemon carts) and the fee was $1.25? When will I learn and do the 'wagon? I guess I'm just afraid my common crap won't hold much attention there. I don't sell many rarities. Shame on me. Shame! YOu may be surprised I list things of all rarities, and have sold alot, well over 100 items. What's nice is no listing fees so even if they do not sell you can relist away. Anyway glad it worked out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgames Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 When will I learn and do the 'wagon? I guess I'm just afraid my common crap won't hold much attention there. I don't sell many rarities. Shame on me. Shame! Ian, I've been selling a lot on the Chuckwagon and outside of the sealed M.U.L.E. almost everything has been pretty common. There's a good mix of buyers and sellers over there. There's serious collectors, folks just starting to get into it, and many looking for old favorite games to plug into their consoles and play. I think you'd do well and it certainly doesn't cost anything to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I think I'm going to list the rest of my 5200 protos over on CTCW soon. At this point, I avoid Ebay like the plague. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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