New Falcon

[applekevin]

Ok, let's face it the Atari ST computers aren't getting any faster, or more importantly newer. They get harder to find on a daily basis for multiple reasons, and most people can't even afford to get on. So my proposition is to create a new Atari Computer. The problem with old computers is that hardware is the hands of a company, and if they company goes under, the people using them are sunk. So, the idea here is to design an open-hardware specification for Atari Falcons/TTs so that any company or individual can make one.

 

Here is a list of features that would be nice:

MIDI

Normal RAM

Faster Processor

Cartridge Slot

USB

FireWire

56000 DSP

SMP

PCIe

 

And I'm sure there are more, please say if you think of any more

 

Anyway, my idea is to design a processor card with a 68k CPU, a 56000 DSP, and a ROM containing TOS that go into a PC processor slot. I have a few more ideas, but I want to get the reaction from everyone on this one

 

Thanks

Kevin

[Fletch]

It all sounds interesting, but who is doing the designing and who is funding such an endeavor? I'm all for it if you have (or have access to) the technical knowledge and financing.

 

Fletch

[Rianata]

There are some interesting developments in this area already and I don't think our small community can handle several projects like this. These developments are mainly based on FPGA solutions.

[Math You]

A fast, 32bit TT with SVGA graphics would have more potential than the 16bit Falcon.

 

Add a General Midi 2 sound chip to the midi port and a broadband modem and you have the potential for a great internet computer.

 

If it could be integrated into a single chip then it could find it's way into other products such as a games console, music synthesizer, television sets and digital TV tuners?

 

What do you think Curt? Could it be done

Edited October 14, 2008 by Math You

[Christos]

I won't argue on the 16-bitness of the falcon, it will be like the 64-bitness of the jaguar all over again. However FPGA ST's have been made to some extend:

 

http://www.experiment-s.de/en/

[mellis]

I won't argue on the 16-bitness of the falcon, it will be like the 64-bitness of the jaguar all over again. However FPGA ST's have been made to some extend:

 

http://www.experiment-s.de/en/

 

That FPGA project is very cool.

 

I had no idea such an effort had been undertaken. Thanks for sharing that link.

[applekevin]

Ok, here's an idea. Remember the old NeXT systems? They are a lot easier to find than Falcons. Which made me think, they have three of the same major chips: the 68030, the 56000, and the 68882, so what if we hacked TOS to run on one of these? Plus, if it ran on a NeXTcube, we could theoretically have the power of the Dimension board, blowing Amiga users out of the water once and for all!!!

[ppera]

...

Anyway, my idea is to design a processor card with a 68k CPU, a 56000 DSP, and a ROM containing TOS that go into a PC processor slot. ...

 

Into PC processor slot ? It is very bad idea from couple reasons: PC processor slot is very specific, and designed for low voltage, very fast CPUs, consuming some 50A current at 1.2-3 Volts. Frequencies are too high for any available custom/programmable chips. Other problem is that we have diverse CPU sockets, and every couple years new sockets appear.

 

If want to use in PC only reasonable solution is SW emulator. It will be even faster than fastest available 68K CPU.

 

Some more problems: designing Falcon clone is something what seems as too hard task. Even designing of usable ST clone goes very slow (as mentinoed, there are some ongoing FPGA projects).

 

Why some Atari clone as Internet computer? Will then be less spam and spyware? What is wrong with existing mainstream computers?

[applekevin]

no, the idea is a computer that is usable for today's tasks for fans of the ST/TT/Falcon computers

[ppera]

This is how I see future of making new, Atari ST compatible HW:

 

Some FPGA project(s) will be made after long time. They will be expensive, slower than emulation, and not exactly 100% compatible.

 

Falcon clone will be never made. There is not much valuable SW for it, btw. I mean special for Falcon.

 

Even if with some miracle we will get new, up-to time Atari clones (but with what CPU? 90MHz... come on... ), big problem will be SW, drivers. There are some half-dead projects for Ataris, as NetUsBee - production stopped. No USB drivers. And it is very nice design.

 

Future is in emulation. With new, multi-core CPUs is possible to do very fast and accurate emulation.

[nathanallan]

A small motherboard stuffed into a Falcon (or falcon-ish) case would be acceptable to me running a full time emulator. The convenience of new parts and upgradability and the looks of the Falcon. Would work for me.

[+poobah]

While I love the idea, the reality of such a beast is problematic.

 

* Few people with the skillset to produce a prototype

* Fewer people with the TIME needed to get a working device made

* Even fewer with the resources... you aren't building a falcon on a $59 PCBExpress protoboard.

 

and the worst part,

 

* No one willing to pay for the result.

 

You can't build a falcon for $99 shipped.

I'd be surprised if it could be done for under $1500-$2000

 

Not too many people are willing to give years of their time to build something that ultimately, no one will pay for.

 

I know, such a downer, but its is reality.

Edited September 12, 2008 by poobah

[Math You]

Why some Atari clone as Internet computer? Will then be less spam and spyware?

That's the idea. An incompatible computer with it's operating system on a ROM chip might be less prone to spyware that a hard disk based operating system.

[ppera]

...That's the idea. An incompatible computer with it's operating system on a ROM chip might be less prone to spyware that a hard disk based operating system.

Well, it would be true for classic viruses, troyans. However, I intentianally mentioned only Spyware and spam. Spyware usually works via WEB browsers, applets, active X and similar. It is true that ROM based machine will be less sensitive, but not enough.

 

Sad reality is that TOS is too far from beeing able to run some decent WEB browser under it. As we know, Atari people uses mostly Mint for Internet OS.

And Mint is not ROM based. Anyway, it will be less harmable.

 

However, most of WEB sites is today far too complex for some slow CPU, little RAM and low graphic resolution. 90MHz 68060 is not capable to run Java and other things enough fast, not to mention video playback (with some modern, high effective codec).

 

So, only possible conclusion is: Atari architecture, TOS is a way outdated. It is far behind today's demands. We can not do anything about.

And I even did not talk about what amount of SW we missing. Who will write Java support for TOS? Sun? MS ? Come-on...

Or we should dismiss Java? Me not for sure...

[Math You]

However, most of WEB sites is today far too complex for some slow CPU, little RAM and low graphic resolution.

I was reading that the iPhone uses a 32bit ARM chip running at 420mhz, so maybe a 32bit TT running at the same speed could run similar applications i.e internet, java, mp3 etc.

 

BTW Does anyone one know if the Falcon's graphics chip could be re-configured to create higher resolutions than 640 x 480?

[lp060]

There are some interesting developments in this area already and I don't think our small community can handle several projects like this. These developments are mainly based on FPGA solutions.

 

Let me add that there's also a couple of Cold Fire projects as well. A better idea is to join an existing project and see it to completion.

[+Zeptari]

Future is in emulation. With new, multi-core CPUs is possible to do very fast and accurate emulation.

 

 

Any new developments in ST software emulators?

A near 100 percent perfect Mega STE emulator would be real nice!

 

-rick

[frogstar_robot]

I suspect that a "modern" ST that runs all the old stuff natively just isn't going to happen. It is possible but the money and skills required to do it argue against. On the other hand we have ARAnyM. ARAnyM is intended to let a modern PC mimic a TOS clone rather than be a 100% low level emulation of an ST. And I suppose there is no reason you couldn't run something like STEEM under ARAnyM for those few bits of gaming oddments.

 

Such a solution won't make two groups of people happy: purists and gamers. But it does seem to be suitable for running the high-end productivity applications for the ST line.

 

http://aranym.org/about.html

[lp060]

And I suppose there is no reason you couldn't run something like STEEM under ARAnyM for those few bits of gaming oddments.

 

You can't run STeem 'under' aranym as you suggest. I take it you never tried it.

 

I have a Hades060 Atari clone, which is hardware based. I can tell you from experience even aranym falls short of running 'all' productivity (tos/gem) software. Some stuff just don't work so I find that about page misleading and it's not an upgrade to me, but a downgrade.

 

Definitely can't make everyone happen.

[frogstar_robot]

And I suppose there is no reason you couldn't run something like STEEM under ARAnyM for those few bits of gaming oddments.

 

You can't run STeem 'under' aranym as you suggest. I take it you never tried it.

 

I have a Hades060 Atari clone, which is hardware based. I can tell you from experience even aranym falls short of running 'all' productivity (tos/gem) software. Some stuff just don't work so I find that about page misleading and it's not an upgrade to me, but a downgrade.

 

Definitely can't make everyone happen.

 

Improving aranym enough to be completely useful may not be likely but it is more possible than all new hardware from scratch. If Aranym is run on top of Linux or a BSD than STEEM could be run alongside even if not on Aranym proper.

 

The best answer if one truly insists on a fast authentic machine is to be ready to pay some real money for an upgraded Falcon, TT, or clone.

Edited October 17, 2008 by frogstar_robot

[lp060]

I think that one suggestion is good that someone else made, and the cheapest route, is to make a more capable emulator. MaigicMac/PC for example forces magic on you but it works relatively well for it's purpose. Aranym forces MiNT on you but again for it's purpose it's 'ok' if you don't mind some tos/gem stuff still not working. I also find it slower than my hades in some cases, even on 2ghz PPC. Be nice if there was an emulator that worked at the level that you could select the OS and just install it, just as you would on a real ST.

 

I don't know if any of the current crop of emulators will run magic or mint if installed as if it was a real ST. But then with MiNT you need at least 030 emulation to get a proper memory protection model.

 

Yes, I have several emulators installed because no one emulator seems to do it all.

That's somewhat a given at this point in time.

Edited October 17, 2008 by lp060

[simonsunnyboy]

Well, actually it is possible. Thothy once compiled a MINT binary of the Hatari emulator and did run it under Aranym. I guess the performance wasn't too good...but in theory this will work with an emulator within an emulator.

[papa_november]

Prices on Falcons are getting to be so insane that a reproduction Falcon is starting to make some sense. The dudes who made the CT60 seem to have almost made one, but it really wasn't a Falcon clone and got axed when funds ran out.

 

This is a shame because the CT60's design is a bit more advanced than most other 060 accelerators for other platforms. Surely a Falcon clone with the CT60's features integrated would cost less than an actual Falcon plus a CT60?

[lp060]

Well, actually it is possible. Thothy once compiled a MINT binary of the Hatari emulator and did run it under Aranym. I guess the performance wasn't too good...but in theory this will work with an emulator within an emulator.

 

I remember that port. Tried to run it on my hades, thinking wouldn't it be cool if I could run the original GFA editor unpatched. Unfortunately that didn't work as Hatari just dies on my hades. lol

[thrax]

Ok, here's an idea. Remember the old NeXT systems? They are a lot easier to find than Falcons. Which made me think, they have three of the same major chips: the 68030, the 56000, and the 68882, so what if we hacked TOS to run on one of these? Plus, if it ran on a NeXTcube, we could theoretically have the power of the Dimension board, blowing Amiga users out of the water once and for all!!!

 

There were mac and Amiga emulators for the NeXT. I recall from Next forums that the mac emulator worked at par speed since it used the same chips. Sadly I don't recall an ST emulator but as you were pointing out by using the same chips you could get pretty good speeds.

 

NOTE: While its true the NeXT might be cheaper than the falcon that won't be the case for a later model cube with a Dimension board. Many NeXT collectors would give a whole next system for that video card alone in the rare cases it is available. Also sometimes Next systems seem cheap on ebay because they will be just the box (particularly the nextstation boxes) which won't run without the special cables to the required sound box. I mention this incase are thinking of buying.