5 things u wished the 5200 had

[atariksi]

4. Longer, more flexible controller cables

Just get a pair of old style PC joystick extension cords. They work perfectly. If you look on the Net hard enough, you usually can get them pretty cheaply.

 

Allan

Very cool - ask and ye shall receive! Thanks for the tip.

You're welcome. Plus it has the added advantage of saving wear and tear on the controller port. Plus if you have one of the Atariage controller adapters, it is tight fitting into the adapter. The port on the AA adapter (at least on mine) fits rather loosely into the 5200 controller port and sometimes will disconnect if moved to much.

 

Allan

 

Same with the Digital Joystick Adapter I made. It slips out because there are no screw holes on the A5200. You can easily put the screw holes in though which I did on my 2-port system. Just use some small screw and make a small hole just below the dash-line on both sides of the port. Then if your plug has the screws just plug them in. But extension cable / Y cable works as well.

[kool kitty89]

You use your thumb on the VCS joystick?

Yep, I learned that from my uncle some 10 years ago (apparently he and his brother -but not my mom- had been using it that way since the 70s), I had a tough time doing that at the time though as my hands were smaller (I was 10 or 11), not too much of a problem now though. (10" hand span) That's one reason I use that "broken in" joystick (not sure if it's a CX-40) for a lot of stuff.

I go back and forth in how I hold it though. (button is always done with the left thumb though)

[atariksi]

You use your thumb on the VCS joystick?

Yep, I learned that from my uncle some 10 years ago (apparently he and his brother -but not my mom- had been using it that way since the 70s), I had a tough time doing that at the time though as my hands were smaller (I was 10 or 11), not too much of a problem now though. (10" hand span) That's one reason I use that "broken in" joystick (not sure if it's a CX-40) for a lot of stuff.

I go back and forth in how I hold it though. (button is always done with the left thumb though)

 

Can you grip a basketball in one hand?

 

Gameboy Advance has only 4 directions; it would be very difficult on that unit to go diagonally. Perhaps, they limit their games to 4 directions.

[kool kitty89]

Can you grip a basketball in one hand?

Nope, and I never could... unless you count for under 2 seconds. One of my uncles can (not sure about the specific one I mentioned before, but his older brother for sure -the second tallest in the family, ~6'4" iirc -I'm almost 6'3"). I think my dad might be able to, but he'd got a stronger grip too.

 

Regardless, that also contributes to my like of the original Xbox controller. (the buttons could be better, but the later versions didn't really fix that either) Contributes to my like for my like of Sega's 3-button pad and I'd the probably really like the Jaguar pad too, and Sega's 3D controller (Dreamcast is OK, but could be better)

In contrast though, I still like the GC controller (Nintendo managed to shape it to cater to a huge range of had sizes), can tolerate the N64 controller (the grips are a bit too short -though it's still better than any later console pack-in controllers in terms of d-pad), and I hate Sony controllers. (too short grips and too stiff, thumb sore inducing buttons and d-pad --some 3rd party alternatives are great though, logitech's are OK, on PC thrustmaster's dual power copies the layout somewhat, but is much more comfotable -ecen with more convex buttons as they're not as stiff and stubby)

 

 

Gameboy Advance has only 4 directions; it would be very difficult on that unit to go diagonally. Perhaps, they limit their games to 4 directions.

Not it doesn't.... diagonal is fine, you cant tell by looking though, just because it had a cross pattern doesn't mean it's oriented for 4-directions. Still, I prefer round (or generally oversized) d-pads. (and the GBA's pad is rather small, like the GBP/GBC and GC) Still, I prefer those all to the DS's stubby smooth d-pad, the Wii's or wii classic controller. (GC's is placed more poorly, but still feels better)

Fighting games can't be properly played without good diagonals. (combo moves)

 

Many "arcade sicks" (for home consoles) are actually less accurate as they tend to use simple dome switches too, just with long throw and less precision.

Best case is with actual microswitches as use in the neo geo and sever good quality home arcade sticks. Neo Geo CD's gampad also used a microswitch based thumb-stick and I think the neo geo pocket did too. (I seem to recall some comments about the switches wearing out though)

 

 

And if it seems like I've spent too much time comparing... I've been involved in several previous discussions on this at Sega-16.

[atariksi]

Can you grip a basketball in one hand?

Nope, and I never could... unless you count for under 2 seconds. One of my uncles can (not sure about the specific one I mentioned before, but his older brother for sure -the second tallest in the family, ~6'4" iirc -I'm almost 6'3"). I think my dad might be able to, but he'd got a stronger grip too.

 

Regardless, that also contributes to my like of the original Xbox controller. (the buttons could be better, but the later versions didn't really fix that either) Contributes to my like for my like of Sega's 3-button pad and I'd the probably really like the Jaguar pad too, and Sega's 3D controller (Dreamcast is OK, but could be better)

In contrast though, I still like the GC controller (Nintendo managed to shape it to cater to a huge range of had sizes), can tolerate the N64 controller (the grips are a bit too short -though it's still better than any later console pack-in controllers in terms of d-pad), and I hate Sony controllers. (too short grips and too stiff, thumb sore inducing buttons and d-pad --some 3rd party alternatives are great though, logitech's are OK, on PC thrustmaster's dual power copies the layout somewhat, but is much more comfotable -ecen with more convex buttons as they're not as stiff and stubby)

 

 

Gameboy Advance has only 4 directions; it would be very difficult on that unit to go diagonally. Perhaps, they limit their games to 4 directions.

Not it doesn't.... diagonal is fine, you cant tell by looking though, just because it had a cross pattern doesn't mean it's oriented for 4-directions. Still, I prefer round (or generally oversized) d-pads. (and the GBA's pad is rather small, like the GBP/GBC and GC) Still, I prefer those all to the DS's stubby smooth d-pad, the Wii's or wii classic controller. (GC's is placed more poorly, but still feels better)

Fighting games can't be properly played without good diagonals. (combo moves)

 

Many "arcade sicks" (for home consoles) are actually less accurate as they tend to use simple dome switches too, just with long throw and less precision.

Best case is with actual microswitches as use in the neo geo and sever good quality home arcade sticks. Neo Geo CD's gampad also used a microswitch based thumb-stick and I think the neo geo pocket did too. (I seem to recall some comments about the switches wearing out though)

 

 

And if it seems like I've spent too much time comparing... I've been involved in several previous discussions on this at Sega-16.

 

I disagree but don't have time to reply right now...

[atariksi]

Can you grip a basketball in one hand?

Nope, and I never could... unless you count for under 2 seconds. One of my uncles can (not sure about the specific one I mentioned before, but his older brother for sure -the second tallest in the family, ~6'4" iirc -I'm almost 6'3"). I think my dad might be able to, but he'd got a stronger grip too.

 

Regardless, that also contributes to my like of the original Xbox controller. (the buttons could be better, but the later versions didn't really fix that either) Contributes to my like for my like of Sega's 3-button pad and I'd the probably really like the Jaguar pad too, and Sega's 3D controller (Dreamcast is OK, but could be better)

In contrast though, I still like the GC controller (Nintendo managed to shape it to cater to a huge range of had sizes), can tolerate the N64 controller (the grips are a bit too short -though it's still better than any later console pack-in controllers in terms of d-pad), and I hate Sony controllers. (too short grips and too stiff, thumb sore inducing buttons and d-pad --some 3rd party alternatives are great though, logitech's are OK, on PC thrustmaster's dual power copies the layout somewhat, but is much more comfotable -ecen with more convex buttons as they're not as stiff and stubby)

...

Just to prove my point, I played a few games with Sega 3-button pad and Atari 800 joystick. On Pac-man I got about 30,000 whereas over 100,000 using Atari 800 joystick (see Atari 8-bit HSC for results). Similar for other games. The Atari 800 joystick allows quick maneuverability. You can, for example, quickly shake off the monsters. The cross-type joypad is more prone to introducing erroneous directions as you move and you have to use the left hand. Also don't like having many buttons to confuse things. As I said before somewhere, modern joysticks have so many buttons nowadays that you can probably assign the entire A8 keyboard to various combinations.

 

Gameboy Advance has only 4 directions; it would be very difficult on that unit to go diagonally. Perhaps, they limit their games to 4 directions.

Not it doesn't.... diagonal is fine, you cant tell by looking though, just because it had a cross pattern doesn't mean it's oriented for 4-directions. Still, I prefer round (or generally oversized) d-pads. (and the GBA's pad is rather small, like the GBP/GBC and GC) Still, I prefer those all to the DS's stubby smooth d-pad, the Wii's or wii classic controller. (GC's is placed more poorly, but still feels better)

Fighting games can't be properly played without good diagonals. (combo moves)

 

Many "arcade sicks" (for home consoles) are actually less accurate as they tend to use simple dome switches too, just with long throw and less precision.

Best case is with actual microswitches as use in the neo geo and sever good quality home arcade sticks. Neo Geo CD's gampad also used a microswitch based thumb-stick and I think the neo geo pocket did too. (I seem to recall some comments about the switches wearing out though)

 

 

And if it seems like I've spent too much time comparing... I've been involved in several previous discussions on this at Sega-16.

 

The gameboy advance is worse than the Sega direction pad since it's more error prone in going diagonally.

 

Analog makes things worse for programming and for exact results. Yeah, the dome type switches have longer delays between switching than the metal strips used on A8 joysticks.

[kool kitty89]

I've actually had more problems using d-pads for precise 4-way (up/dn/l/r) control than diagonal, though they vary widely by design/model and amount of wear (or cleaning). My 6-button pad seems more responsive than one of my really worn 3-buttons... (at least before I gave it a good cleaning -you can't do too much about the worn plastic pivot point though -models using ball bearings avoid that)

 

I can perhaps understand if you use a d-pad by having your thumb hovering over it, or lightly touching, but the way I play is constantly mashing the d-pad down. (the way dome switches push on the pads, it really seems like diagonals are more responsive)

 

 

I personally like LOTs of buttons and full programmability for controllers (joysticks or gamepads), to work in place of a keyboard. I use a Logitech Wingman joystick for flight/space sims on my PC and it's WAY better than the old way of keyboard+joystick (though some low priority commands still stay keyboard only due to button limits, in spite of 12 buttons, throttle, 3 analog axes, and an 8-way directional "hat"). http://images.compusa.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-6268-a.jpg

That and the Gravix Xterminator from the mid 90s... (I wish they still made those... the USB version is so rare) For FPSs I still prefer the classic mouse+keyboard combo though. http://gepachika.exblog.jp/20535/

 

Many games are crippled by limited buttons, even on the genesis (6-button was underused), and in some cases even the 6-button (7 counting mode) is lacking, like with Wing Commander. (complex button combos are necessary for some actions)

That's where things like the keypad on the Jaguar pad (or especially the dual mapped keys/buttons of the more flexible pro controller) really come in handy.

 

 

This is really off topic though, other than pointing out the positive points of having a keypad on the controller. (and for some games, like Star Raiders, it was fairly handy -though far less frequently useful than for some later computer games)

 

 

Conversely some games make controls unnecessarily complex, but that's not the fault of the controller. (they don't HAVE to use so many buttons just because they're there)

Edited May 2, 2010 by kool kitty89

[atariksi]

...

I personally like LOTs of buttons and full programmability for controllers (joysticks or gamepads), to work in place of a keyboard. I use a Logitech Wingman joystick for flight/space sims on my PC and it's WAY better than the old way of keyboard+joystick (though some low priority commands still stay keyboard only due to button limits, in spite of 12 buttons, throttle, 3 analog axes, and an 8-way directional "hat"). http://images.compusa.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-6268-a.jpg

That and the Gravix Xterminator from the mid 90s... (I wish they still made those... the USB version is so rare) For FPSs I still prefer the classic mouse+keyboard combo though. http://gepachika.exblog.jp/20535/

 

Many games are crippled by limited buttons, even on the genesis (6-button was underused), and in some cases even the 6-button (7 counting mode) is lacking, like with Wing Commander. (complex button combos are necessary for some actions)

That's where things like the keypad on the Jaguar pad (or especially the dual mapped keys/buttons of the more flexible pro controller) really come in handy.

...

There's few games that actually need so many buttons. And just for a few, you carry that complexity for all games. Makes no sense. If you study compression, if some audio waveform block ranges from values 500..1000, there's no reason to save 16-bit numbers, you simply subtract 512 and save as 9-bit numbers. Similarly, if most games use 1 or 2 buttons (0 in case of pac-man), you go with joysticks that have 1 or 2 buttons and leave the few games to keyboards or keypads (like Star Raiders). That's an optimal approach. AND users don't have to remember as much when switching game to game. One reason I never play Realsports Baseball on A5200 (see other thread) is because I have no idea how the controls work on that game. And even if I were to train myself (a bad thing if you play lots of different games), I would soon forget given there's so many other Baseball and other games. So the learning curve is more for those complex joysticks. And it's more confusing to pick up a multi-button joystick and figure out what to press even if only one or two buttons were being used.

 

This is really off topic though, other than pointing out the positive points of having a keypad on the controller. (and for some games, like Star Raiders, it was fairly handy -though far less frequently useful than for some later computer games)

 

 

Conversely some games make controls unnecessarily complex, but that's not the fault of the controller. (they don't HAVE to use so many buttons just because they're there)

 

It is the fault of the controller as well as the game. If the controller was only one or two buttons, people would program the game so that the high probability events were mapped to those one or two buttons and the directions and leave the low probable events to keypads or keyboards. For example, Defender on A8 is perfect. You use the high probable joystick button for firing and leave the low probable event for space bar (smart bomb) and extremely low probability event (hyperspace) to other keys.

 

Let's get this straight human-interface devices like mice, trackballs, etc. ARE MEANT to make it easier than using keyboards. It's just STUPID to put 20 buttons on a mouse or joystick. The purpose was to simplify things not to make it more convoluted than using the keyboard. I have this stupid mouse that has buttons all around and scroll wheels and so many other options. It sucks! Sometimes the slightest movement causes page flips on the internet browser because some button got pressed. I have to use the mouse like handling a radioactive element or Polaroid film that hasn't dried yet-- hold it from the edges and move it around.

[ZylonBane]

I disagree but don't have time to reply right now...

I'm going to savagely mock you for quoting an entire screen full of text just to tack on a single-line information-free non-reply, but I don't have time right now.

[mimo]

Digital joysticks

a keyboard ( preferably a membrane type)

a beige case

a cassette and or floppy drive

[kool kitty89]

There's few games that actually need so many buttons. And just for a few, you carry that complexity for all games.

In the early 80s perhaps, but by the late 80s, and early 90s there wer eplenty of games that wouldn't work properly without lots of buttons, and having them on one controller is much more convenient than a separate keyboard... For a one-handed joystick, keyboard is OK to work with, mouse moreso, but for a gamepad, it's not very useful at all. (X-wing or Wing Commander can be pretty fun to play on comprehensive gamepads with joy-to-key mapping ;p)

 

It is the fault of the controller as well as the game. If the controller was only one or two buttons, people would program the game so that the high probability events were mapped to those one or two buttons and the directions and leave the low probable events to keypads or keyboards. For example, Defender on A8 is perfect. You use the high probable joystick button for firing and leave the low probable event for space bar (smart bomb) and extremely low probability event (hyperspace) to other keys.

If the game only needs simple controls, just use the few, most common buttons... like how most SNES games don't use the shoulder buttons, or have redundant features on them, and some others don't use all 4 face buttons (or select) either.

Likewise, you could easily have games on modern consoles focus on the 4 main face buttons on the PS3/Xbox or fewer.

 

However, the beauty comes from fully programmable controls, which most consoles lack, but PCs support, hence you can opt for using a complex joystick as a simple 2-axis 2-button stick and use the keyboard for the rest, or map important commands to the joystick in your preferred manner. (same for gamepads) I've wished so many times that I could chose my own button layout on console games... (the few games that don't support inverted x/y axes in 3D games are really frustrating too)

 

Let's get this straight human-interface devices like mice, trackballs, etc. ARE MEANT to make it easier than using keyboards. It's just STUPID to put 20 buttons on a mouse or joystick. The purpose was to simplify things not to make it more convoluted than using the keyboard. I have this stupid mouse that has buttons all around and scroll wheels and so many other options. It sucks! Sometimes the slightest movement causes page flips on the internet browser because some button got pressed. I have to use the mouse like handling a radioactive element or Polaroid film that hasn't dried yet-- hold it from the edges and move it around.

Again, as long as it's programmeable, it's fine. Don't want to use the buttons, go to the settings and disable them... (as I did on the stupid "squeeze" buttons on newer Mac mice...) I considered using that on my logitech mouse, but have gotten quite used to having browser controls on it. (for page foreward/back, scroll, and zoom in/out/100%)

 

It DOES simplify things, as you don't have to use the keyboard or go to the task/option bar to do things like zoom the page or go foreward/back... (and only if you want to) For games, even more so as you can get a fully fluid control layout without convoluted button combos to supplement things, or a separate keyboard distracting you... Great for strategy games, flight/vehicle sims, etc, though I still prefer keyboard+mouse for FPSs. (the jaguar did that nicely with doom, though it would have been better with the pro controller's additional features, and proper strafing support. but the mapped weapons to keys was nice and the only tine done on a gamepad afik)

And for more complex flight sims and such, you still need additional keys too, but you can put the most often used ones on the joystick. (for X-wing vs Tie Fighter and X-Wing alliance, I put the weapon select, sheild control, shield/laser and laser/shield transfer, shield power, and laser power control, then the nearest enemy select, match target's speed, target what's on screen, and cycle targets on the joystick, as well as look with the directional hat, plus throttle control)

Edited May 3, 2010 by kool kitty89

[atariksi]

I disagree but don't have time to reply right now...

I'm going to savagely mock you for quoting an entire screen full of text just to tack on a single-line information-free non-reply, but I don't have time right now.

 

You should learn to read people's replies before you attack them. There's a detail reply the post right after. And FYI, it's a perfectly legitimate reply to disagree and not give details. You, on the other hand, haven't even don that nor addressed any of the points.

[atariksi]

There's few games that actually need so many buttons. And just for a few, you carry that complexity for all games.

In the early 80s perhaps, but by the late 80s, and early 90s there wer eplenty of games that wouldn't work properly without lots of buttons, and having them on one controller is much more convenient than a separate keyboard... For a one-handed joystick, keyboard is OK to work with, mouse moreso, but for a gamepad, it's not very useful at all. (X-wing or Wing Commander can be pretty fun to play on comprehensive gamepads with joy-to-key mapping ;p)

 

It is the fault of the controller as well as the game. If the controller was only one or two buttons, people would program the game so that the high probability events were mapped to those one or two buttons and the directions and leave the low probable events to keypads or keyboards. For example, Defender on A8 is perfect. You use the high probable joystick button for firing and leave the low probable event for space bar (smart bomb) and extremely low probability event (hyperspace) to other keys.

If the game only needs simple controls, just use the few, most common buttons... like how most SNES games don't use the shoulder buttons, or have redundant features on them, and some others don't use all 4 face buttons (or select) either.

Likewise, you could easily have games on modern consoles focus on the 4 main face buttons on the PS3/Xbox or fewer.

...

Using some of the buttons is fine as long as they are consistent and everyone knows but that's not what is the case. They arbitrarily assign things to various buttons and make things complex even if the game doesn't need some of those features. And many games don't consistenly use the buttons the same way. Even 4 buttons is too much and requires a learning curve what to speak of 10+ buttons. And for quick action games, having multiple buttons is a MINUS as your decisions are quicker if you have fewer buttons like one button or two.

 

However, the beauty comes from fully programmable controls, which most consoles lack, but PCs support, hence you can opt for using a complex joystick as a simple 2-axis 2-button stick and use the keyboard for the rest, or map important commands to the joystick in your preferred manner. (same for gamepads) I've wished so many times that I could chose my own button layout on console games... (the few games that don't support inverted x/y axes in 3D games are really frustrating too)

...

At least you acknowledge they are complex and thus the need for something to help simplifiy the joystick. However, programmability (where available) doesn't help much but also introduces an added confusion of people defining their own means of motion. There's no figuring out on your own as you already have to know all the functions of the buttons to redefine them. Take a look at Joust, Pac-man, Donkey Kong, etc., no reason to figure out anything complex-- you can play the game right away and no need to read any manual.

 

Let's get this straight human-interface devices like mice, trackballs, etc. ARE MEANT to make it easier than using keyboards. It's just STUPID to put 20 buttons on a mouse or joystick. The purpose was to simplify things not to make it more convoluted than using the keyboard. I have this stupid mouse that has buttons all around and scroll wheels and so many other options. It sucks! Sometimes the slightest movement causes page flips on the internet browser because some button got pressed. I have to use the mouse like handling a radioactive element or Polaroid film that hasn't dried yet-- hold it from the edges and move it around.

Again, as long as it's programmeable, it's fine. Don't want to use the buttons, go to the settings and disable them... (as I did on the stupid "squeeze" buttons on newer Mac mice...) I considered using that on my logitech mouse, but have gotten quite used to having browser controls on it. (for page foreward/back, scroll, and zoom in/out/100%)

 

It DOES simplify things, as you don't have to use the keyboard or go to the task/option bar to do things like zoom the page or go foreward/back... (and only if you want to) For games, even more so as you can get a fully fluid control layout without convoluted button combos to supplement things, or a separate keyboard distracting you... Great for strategy games, flight/vehicle sims, etc, though I still prefer keyboard+mouse for FPSs. (the jaguar did that nicely with doom, though it would have been better with the pro controller's additional features, and proper strafing support. but the mapped weapons to keys was nice and the only tine done on a gamepad afik)

And for more complex flight sims and such, you still need additional keys too, but you can put the most often used ones on the joystick. (for X-wing vs Tie Fighter and X-Wing alliance, I put the weapon select, sheild control, shield/laser and laser/shield transfer, shield power, and laser power control, then the nearest enemy select, match target's speed, target what's on screen, and cycle targets on the joystick, as well as look with the directional hat, plus throttle control)

 

I agree there are a few games that it would help on, but no reason to carry that complexity and load for all the games and confuse users or add things that are unnecessary. You have to read the manual to play/run Flight Simulator on A800 as well as on the modern consoles, but those types of games are complex anyway so put them on the keyboard or joystick isn't that much of a big thing. I played some of the 3D stuff and without any manuals, it's hard to play the stuff. And having thousands of games, I have to no time to memorize all the various controls for so many games. And even after knowing the controls, it's hard to use them.

[ZylonBane]

You should learn to read people's replies before you attack them. There's a detail reply the post right after.

Then you need to learn what that big shiny candy-like "EDIT" button does.

 

You know what? Nevermind. Clearly concepts like "bandwidth" and "readability" and "signal-to-noise ratio" and "netiquette" are just gibberish to you.

[atariksi]

You should learn to read people's replies before you attack them. There's a detail reply the post right after.

Then you need to learn what that big shiny candy-like "EDIT" button does.

 

You know what? Nevermind. Clearly concepts like "bandwidth" and "readability" and "signal-to-noise ratio" and "netiquette" are just gibberish to you.

 

You should apply your bullcrap to yourself. Your the one with ALL noise. You have said nothing relevant to what's being discussed. I disagreed and when I came back a couple of days later (when I had time) I gave the details. They are both pertinent to the topic unlike your crap. Your speaking gibberish if you want to take things honestly. I never edit my posts; go check the history for yourself. It makes my replies more authentic. Go bug some one else.

[kool kitty89]

You should learn to read people's replies before you attack them. There's a detail reply the post right after.

Then you need to learn what that big shiny candy-like "EDIT" button does.

 

You know what? Nevermind. Clearly concepts like "bandwidth" and "readability" and "signal-to-noise ratio" and "netiquette" are just gibberish to you.

AA only provides a 1 hour window for editing... Atariksi made that initial post a couple days before he got around to explaining.

[ZylonBane]

AA only provides a 1 hour window for editing... Atariksi made that initial post a couple days before he got around to explaining.

Good god. Between that and the nested quoting functionality, it's as if the forums here are intentionally set up to generate as much noise as possible.

 

(and note how atariksi keeps glossing over the part where he quoted an entire screen full of text for no reason)

[atariksi]

AA only provides a 1 hour window for editing... Atariksi made that initial post a couple days before he got around to explaining.

Good god. Between that and the nested quoting functionality, it's as if the forums here are intentionally set up to generate as much noise as possible.

 

(and note how atariksi keeps glossing over the part where he quoted an entire screen full of text for no reason)

 

Just a troll. Didn't even address anything from the topic or my reply.

[kool kitty89]

Good god. Between that and the nested quoting functionality, it's as if the forums here are intentionally set up to generate as much noise as possible.

 

(and note how atariksi keeps glossing over the part where he quoted an entire screen full of text for no reason)

 

Some people seem to dislike breaking up/snipping quotes they're responding to. (I personally don't see the big deal as there's a link button at the head of the quote box to view the original)

 

Another thing I just realized is that in that 1 hour, deleting the post entirely is still not an option. (you can edit it to blank, but not remove it) -I just did that where I'd meant to add an edit for a 2nd 1/2 of a post, but ended up making a double post...

[atariksi]

Good god. Between that and the nested quoting functionality, it's as if the forums here are intentionally set up to generate as much noise as possible.

 

(and note how atariksi keeps glossing over the part where he quoted an entire screen full of text for no reason)

 

Some people seem to dislike breaking up/snipping quotes they're responding to. (I personally don't see the big deal as there's a link button at the head of the quote box to view the original)

 

Another thing I just realized is that in that 1 hour, deleting the post entirely is still not an option. (you can edit it to blank, but not remove it) -I just did that where I'd meant to add an edit for a 2nd 1/2 of a post, but ended up making a double post...

 

Actually, I didn't know there was a time limit on editing posts as I never edit them. Since people sometimes take quotes and put them elsewhere, I find it better to requote what I'm replying to (most of the time). Also, it's easier to follow who you're replying to.

 

Back to the discussion regarding complexity of modern day joysticks vs. retro-joysticks:

 

Even PC's original gameport supported only two button joysticks although their analogicity and time-consuming reading made them inferior to A8 joysticks. Nowadays, they seem to have sped up the reading of the analog values but the lack of digital standard and addition of more complexity and nonstandardization makes them even worse. Now people have to go through some driver level or OS calls to read the buttons or directions and hard to tell how long the API call will take. Previously, it was slow but standard using IN AL,DX (DX set to 201h). And the inconsistency of which buttons get used for what (or if they even get used) varies with the game. I sometimes put on Atari 8-bit in parties and people never ask "which button to jump", "how do I move left/right", etc. But anytime there's a playstation or some other game, all the questions pop up-- "How do you start?", "Which button for the brakes?", "How do you un-do the 3D rotation to go back to the original position?", etc.

 

I have played some of those crappy games and basically to figure out what button does what boils down to:

 

Eenie meenie minie moe

press the button to shoot the foe

if you get it wrong, let it go

next time it occurs you better know

eenie meenie minie moe

[kool kitty89]

Later gameport controllers used drivers as well as they were no longer simple direct interfaces but used onboard logic facilitating more complexity than the original port allowed. (usually sending all data through the 4 digital lines provided -originally for buttons -some supported daisy chaining as well)

 

Using the gameport as a direct interface doesn't limit to 2 buttons either, that was just the original assumption as the port was designed for 2 2-axis 2-button analog joysticks per port. Some controllers used all 4 buttons in one controller, Gravis's original gamepad used the 4 button lines for buttons plus a simple resistor DAC set-up for the d-pad to use 2 analog axes. (rather like "digital" joysticks or adapters for the 5200) I assume gravis did that to allow the gamepad to be used without specific support in place of common 2-axis 2-button analog joysticks.

There also some other set-ups that take advantage of this too: We have a flight stick with 4 buttons, 2 axis joystick, a throttle control on a 3rd axis, and daisy chaining support for a 4th axis using foot pedals for rudder control.

[bohoki]

Later gameport controllers used drivers as well as they were no longer simple direct interfaces but used onboard logic facilitating more complexity than the original port allowed. (usually sending all data through the 4 digital lines provided -originally for buttons -some supported daisy chaining as well)

 

Using the gameport as a direct interface doesn't limit to 2 buttons either, that was just the original assumption as the port was designed for 2 2-axis 2-button analog joysticks per port. Some controllers used all 4 buttons in one controller, Gravis's original gamepad used the 4 button lines for buttons plus a simple resistor DAC set-up for the d-pad to use 2 analog axes. (rather like "digital" joysticks or adapters for the 5200) I assume gravis did that to allow the gamepad to be used without specific support in place of common 2-axis 2-button analog joysticks.

There also some other set-ups that take advantage of this too: We have a flight stick with 4 buttons, 2 axis joystick, a throttle control on a 3rd axis, and daisy chaining support for a 4th axis using foot pedals for rudder control.

 

i love the gravis gamepad and am using one on my 5200

 

you are correct it does use 2 of the buttons from the second stick but the gravis has 2 switches the top switch reverses the stick so it can be used with the right thumb and the bottom swich turns the player 2 buttons into autofire button 1 and 2

 

the 15 pin gameport on the pc has seen some clever implimentations like they even went as far as making a six button stick and it just used the player 2 axis for buttons then when the driver based serial interface stuff came out it no more limits but by then usb was out as well and it was gameover for the gameport

[bohoki]

4. Longer, more flexible controller cables

Just get a pair of old style PC joystick extension cords. They work perfectly. If you look on the Net hard enough, you usually can get them pretty cheaply.

 

Allan

Very cool - ask and ye shall receive! Thanks for the tip.

 

Even a Y cable would work as well like here:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 350344234970

 

 

 

no a y cable only passes the top row to the female ends then takes the bottom row and puts it on the top row of the other side of the Y

 

although i really wish i could get those "ends" instead of the metal shielded ones

[atariksi]

4. Longer, more flexible controller cables

Just get a pair of old style PC joystick extension cords. They work perfectly. If you look on the Net hard enough, you usually can get them pretty cheaply.

 

Allan

Very cool - ask and ye shall receive! Thanks for the tip.

 

Even a Y cable would work as well like here:

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 350344234970

 

 

 

no a y cable only passes the top row to the female ends then takes the bottom row and puts it on the top row of the other side of the Y

 

although i really wish i could get those "ends" instead of the metal shielded ones

 

Not this one. I bought a couple of these and they pass all 15 signals straight through. It serves dual purpose-- for plugging in two joysticks into a PC gameport or for plugging in one joystick into two Atari 5200 ports. So a couple of these can convert your 4-port into a 2-port!

[kool kitty89]

Not this one. I bought a couple of these and they pass all 15 signals straight through. It serves dual purpose-- for plugging in two joysticks into a PC gameport or for plugging in one joystick into two Atari 5200 ports. So a couple of these can convert your 4-port into a 2-port!

But the pinouts for joystick #2 on a gameport are different than #1... They didn'tmake dedicated "player 2" joystifcks AFIK, so you'd need a splitter with passthrough for player 1, and rerouted lines for player 2. (ie for P2, the joystick plugs into a connector with pins for x1/y1 and buttons 1/2 routed to x2/y2 and buttons 3/4 to the actual gameport)