What is the 7800 really capable of?

[Zap!]

I keep reading technical justification that the 7800 is superior to the NES and even SMS. Well, let's see some hard evidence. Show me a 7800 game that looks better than Super Mario Bros. 3 or Phantasy Star.

[Jinks]

I keep reading technical justification that the 7800 is superior to the NES and even SMS. Well, let's see some hard evidence. Show me a 7800 game that looks better than Super Mario Bros. 3 or Phantasy Star.

Well. If you have been reading so intently.. maybe you would realize why games like those have not been made for the 7800.

Due to all the hardware add ons the nes had is the ONLY REASON the nes could pull off those games.

The 7800 did not have all those in the cart added on so those games could not and have not been made.

Starting to sound like a broken record explaining this to you boy wonder. Your momma said internet time is over and now its time to put on your pull ups and sleep in your own bed like a big kid.

Or maybe you are a special person that has brain damage? Then I feel sorry for you.

Troll elsewhere.

[Lynxpro]

 

Don't know if that is an exaggeration or not , the truth is though, as has been stated on several occasions, ~90% of its library required additional hardware assistance beyond the base system's capabilities. Additionally, a good representation of what the base console can do is reflected in the "Black Box 30".

 

The following games...

 

...10-Yard Fight, Balloon Fight, Baseball, Clu Clu Land, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr. (Math), Donkey Kong 3, Duck Hunt, Excitebike, Golf, Gumshoe, Gyromite, Hogan's Alley, Ice Climber, Kung Fu, Mach Rider, Mario Bros., Pinball, Popeye, Pro Wrestling, Slalom, Soccer, Stack-Up, Super Mario Bros., Tennis, Urban Champion, Volleyball, Wild Gunman, Wrecking Crew...

 

...are certainly nothing to sneeze at; however, they reach nowhere near the caliber of titles that are hailed and praised so highly for the system such as Super Mario Bros. 3, and especially Castlevania III; the amount of additional assistance for that game, particularly graphically, is tremendous.

 

For a more extensive list of all NES titles see here. When reviewing the list, note the "Mapper" column. Any title that does not state: "---- (0)" received additional hardware assistance above the base system's abilities. This page helps in appreciating how many different mapper configurations have been created to cover the variety of additional hardware assistance the NES received. It's really a shame to never know what the 7800 could accomplish if it had that kind of support and additional resources.

 

Noteworthy too, the XM module - a conglomerate of some possible 7800 cartridge based hardware - just barely scrapes the surface and is a miniscule fraction of the scope and depth of 'NES-like' cartridge based hardware. Regardless, the 7800 already does a very impressive job without the 'NES-kind' of extensive resources at its disposal, thanks not only to some of the original library games, but also to the outstanding homebrew developers.

 

 

And this is what blows me away about the whole NES/Famicom and the "Mappers" issue. Atari Inc. was evaluating the Famicom during its development while working with GCC on the 3600/7800. Surely they knew about the need for Mappers and thus they should've communicated that to GCC to allow for future graphics co-processors for the 7800 to keep it on par. But it seems like they only cared about additional audio chip options in the cartridges. Maybe Nintendo didn't tell them about the upgrade options via cartridge but that should've been discovered via the evaluation period even if it hadn't been communicated by secretive Nintendo.

[Bill Loguidice]

It really doesn't matter how it was achieved, just that it was achieved, so this idea that the NES is inferior to the 7800 without its helper chips is completely irrelevant. Of course it's obvious to anyone that many NES and SMS games were far superior to just about anything we've seen on the 7800, but, as was also discussed multiple times, Atari platforms after the 5200 suffered in comparison to the competition in terms of breadth of developers and funding. With all that in mind, it's clear that the 7800 could easily be competitive with both the NES and SMS, but, back when it mattered, it really wasn't.

[Zap!]

Well. If you have been reading so intently.. maybe you would realize why games like those have not been made for the 7800.

Due to all the hardware add ons the nes had is the ONLY REASON the nes could pull off those games.

The 7800 did not have all those in the cart added on so those games could not and have not been made.

Starting to sound like a broken record explaining this to you boy wonder. Your momma said internet time is over and now its time to put on your pull ups and sleep in your own bed like a big kid.

Or maybe you are a special person that has brain damage? Then I feel sorry for you.

Troll elsewhere.

 

How dare you accuse a long time member of trolling. You should be warned for such an assault and possibly banned. You wound not have the courage to start name-calling in person, so doing it here doesn't make you a big man. Just for your knowledge, I got the 7800 for Christmas of 1986. Where were you? You are a disgrace to this board.

[Greg2600]

I keep reading technical justification that the 7800 is superior to the NES and even SMS. Well, let's see some hard evidence. Show me a 7800 game that looks better than Super Mario Bros. 3 or Phantasy Star.

 

You likely won't. Frankly it would be difficult to expect a homebrew to compete with Super Mario Bros. 3, a tremendous game guided by the legendary Miyamoto. So that's not exactly a fair comparison! However, graphics and sound are not the only things to care about. Metroid, Zelda, Punch-Out, RC Pro-Am, and SMB 1 were all far better games to play than most of the 7800/SMS library.

[Jinks]

 

How dare you accuse a long time member of trolling. You should be warned for such an assault and possibly banned. You wound not have the courage to start name-calling in person, so doing it here doesn't make you a big man. Just for your knowledge, I got the 7800 for Christmas of 1986. Where were you? You are a disgrace to this board.

Well.. I seriously thought you were trolling. Seemed clear to me after reading this discussion what you didn't pick up on. I guess it was not that obvious.

I never seen you around. Sorry if you were serious. I dunno. I call all sorts of people whatever I want in person if I have to. But I am rarely do because I am non-confrontational. I am a big man in person but I choose not to fight. It takes a big man to apologise so please accept my apology. I will never again call you out.

I guess I should be more like myself and be a nice guy. I have been stomped a couple dozen times by different members on here before for unknowingly asking questions that were deemed too newbie. So I guess I thought It was par for the course on here .

Again sorry.

[Zap!]

Well.. I seriously thought you were trolling. Seemed clear to me after reading this discussion what you didn't pick up on. I guess it was not that obvious.

I never seen you around. Sorry if you were serious. I dunno. I call all sorts of people whatever I want in person if I have to. But I am rarely do because I am non-confrontational. I am a big man in person but I choose not to fight. It takes a big man to apologise so please accept my apology. I will never again call you out.

I guess I should be more like myself and be a nice guy. I have been stomped a couple dozen times by different members on here before for unknowingly asking questions that were deemed too newbie. So I guess I thought It was par for the course on here .

Again sorry.

 

It's all good, I guess I sorta blend in. I stay quiet despite being here for 7 1/2 years, and founding Zap! classic gaming newsletter in 1991 when I was 18. Another problem is that this is one of the few forum boards that doesn't say the join date near the avatar. You have to click "profile" to see it.

 

Getting back on topic, I do understand about how the NES does it. I was just of the opinion that the final product is what matters the most. I think Bill Loguidice said it best. It doesn't matter how it's achieved, just that it was achieved.

 

But I'm certainly not hating on any system. The 7800 was an under-rated system that should have gotten more support.

[Trebor]

Just to be clear, the information provided earlier is not to make the case of the 7800 being "superior" to the NES (And certainly not superior the SMS); rather to dispel the notion some may have that the 7800 was "inferior" to the NES. As stated in previous threads, the SMS base hardware overall trumps both systems; nonetheless, respecting the NES, it had support (I.E. additional cart hardware/marketing/developers) and circumstances (I.E. most third parties locked in exclusively) well above and beyond the other platforms. The heart of the matter was nicely nailed by Bill, essentially:

 

With all that in mind, it's clear that the 7800 could easily be competitive with both the NES and SMS, but, back when it mattered, it really wasn't.

 

100% agree. Indeed, the 7800 could easily be competitive with the NES and SMS, but back then when it needed to be - it really wasn't (Despite that it did outsell the SMS in the US). So much potential in the 7800 hardly tapped back then, though again, thankfully we have some fantastic developers tapping some of that potential 'today'.

 

Also, Nintendo was brilliant both in the console and handheld market. A greyscale Gameboy system won out against the Game Gear and the Lynx is quite a feat. Granted Tetris played a huge role; nevertheless, it is quite amazing. (Almost) Wish Atari never ventured into the handheld race, and rather utilized those resources (and games) towards the 7800...But again, history tells a different tale.

[AtariBrian]

Maybe its capable of causing global warming its getting so hot now

[Zap!]

 

Also, Nintendo was brilliant both in the console and handheld market. A greyscale Gameboy system won out against the Game Gear and the Lynx is quite a feat. Granted Tetris played a huge role; nevertheless, it is quite amazing. (Almost) Wish Atari never ventured into the handheld race, and rather utilized those resources (and games) towards the 7800...But again, history tells a different tale.

 

Yeah but by the time Atari ventured into the Lynx, the 7800 was already pretty much dead, sad to say. I wish Epyx had stuck with the Handy, rather then sold the rights to Atari.

[Lynxpro]

 

Yeah but by the time Atari ventured into the Lynx, the 7800 was already pretty much dead, sad to say. I wish Epyx had stuck with the Handy, rather then sold the rights to Atari.

 

 

And how exactly could Epyx been successful as a hardware manufacturer? Atari Corp had considerably more revenue and resources than Epyx did and Nintendo still crushed them. Epyx didn't have a loyal fan base to sell to, unlike Atari. Epyx rode itself into bankruptcy. So your wish would've been for the "Handy" to have never been released or merely serving as a minor industry footnote like the Konix Multi System.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Lynxpro

[Zap!]

 

 

And how exactly could Epyx been successful as a hardware manufacturer? Atari Corp had considerably more revenue and resources than Epyx did and Nintendo still crushed them. Epyx didn't have a loyal fan base to sell to, unlike Atari. Epyx rode itself into bankruptcy. So your wish would've been for the "Handy" to have never been released or merely serving as a minor industry footnote like the Konix Multi System.

 

Maybe, but well never really know for sure. Maybe it would have sold better, especially if they got it out earlier.Maybe it would have been marketed smarter, with less resources of course. I can tell you that the Handy designers were not happy at all when Epyx sold it to Atari. I love Atari but they made a lot of mistakes back then.

 

After reading about it in EGM in 1989, I wanted that Konix Multi System so bad I could taste it. One of my favorite vaporwares to this date.

 

PS California Games had a mention of "Came in real Handy." I always though that was a nice gesture to the original designers.

[ZylonBane]

How dare you accuse a long time member of trolling. You should be warned for such an assault and possibly banned.

This is EXACTLY how most trolls react when someone calls them out on it.

[Zap!]

This is EXACTLY how most trolls react when someone calls them out on it.

 

The issue was settled. Most non-trolls get angry when someone calls them a troll as well.

[Lynxpro]

 

Maybe, but well never really know for sure. Maybe it would have sold better, especially if they got it out earlier.Maybe it would have been marketed smarter, with less resources of course. I can tell you that the Handy designers were not happy at all when Epyx sold it to Atari. I love Atari but they made a lot of mistakes back then.

 

After reading about it in EGM in 1989, I wanted that Konix Multi System so bad I could taste it. One of my favorite vaporwares to this date.

 

PS California Games had a mention of "Came in real Handy." I always though that was a nice gesture to the original designers.

 

Of course RJ Mical [sic] didn't want the Handy sold to Atari [Corp]. He practically had a second career to maintain by touring Amiga Users Groups and spinning tales about how mean ol' Atari tried to crush his holy Amiga computer.

 

With that being said, the guy is a genius and I have mad respect for his talent and intellect. Aside from the 3DO, he's made incredible stuff; makes me wonder what he's been working on over at Sony for the past several years.

[mos6507]

The more educated I get about business, the more I realize that raw potential by itself, whether it's promising hardware or software, is not enough. You need corporate follow-through across the board. I have a weird personality quirk that is attracted to things that got stomped on in a Beta vs. VHS type war, or withered on the vine due to internal corporate mismanagement. I think it's neat for a homebrew game, accessory, or a hack to prove that a particular system (or the animation software I hacked) had more legs in it than people (maybe even the company that built it) would be led to believe. It's a fun intellectual challenge to push the envelope and surprise people. But beyond a certain point, it stops generating much in the way of a ripple in the fabric of pop-culture, as they will have moved onto the "next big thing".

 

And this argument could be extended to Monday-morning quarterbacking all sorts of industries, especially the auto industry. Think of all the dead GM brands, for instance, some with vociferous fans (my first car was a SAAB 96 V4). There are little enclaves of die-hards who will keep dreaming of the paths that weren't taken. It's part of their grief, I guess. Fandom and grief kind of merge into one.

Edited August 18, 2014 by mos6507

[atarian63]

You likely won't. Frankly it would be difficult to expect a homebrew to compete with Super Mario Bros. 3, a tremendous game guided by the legendary Miyamoto. So that's not exactly a fair comparison! However, graphics and sound are not the only things to care about. Metroid, Zelda, Punch-Out, RC Pro-Am, and SMB 1 were all far better games to play than most of the 7800/SMS library.

 

I dunno Bob Decredenso 7800 bob has turned out amazing stuff and if given a full time gig doing it my bet is Bob could make things of that caliber

[Video]

I don't know, Tower Topler (is that the right game? The one where you are trying to climb a tower) That game had IMO amazing graphics.

 

That said, Nintendo had the resources, and a ton of developers. They simply had more games, and while the 7800 may have been able to compete from a technical standpoint, they never would have from a resources standpoint.

 

The things that stand out to me is the lack of games with vertical and horizontal scrolling, numbers of sprites, over all game complexity, and especially sound, the 7800 simply didn't have it.

 

The best place to compare systems is on games that were produced for all systems, but then, you have games either made by a first party developer, who is of course, going to make the game on their system look more appealing, even if it could be done better on another console, or third parties, who will put more time and effort into the game console that will sell better (nintendo)

 

Thing that gets me was, Where the F(boop) was tengen? (basically atari) for the 7800? I would have loved to see tetris or RBI on that system (the games I liked the most) but most of the tengen series were pretty solid, or the ones I played. Why not 7800 tengen? Or at least Atari versions of those games on 7800.

[Lynxpro]

Thing that gets me was, Where the F(boop) was tengen? (basically atari) for the 7800? I would have loved to see tetris or RBI on that system (the games I liked the most) but most of the tengen series were pretty solid, or the ones I played. Why not 7800 tengen? Or at least Atari versions of those games on 7800.

 

The simple and short explanation was Tengen was Atari Games and not only did they not like Jack Tramiel but they also figured they'd make more money as an NES developer/publisher than they would had they attempted to support the Sega Master System or the Atari [Corp] 7800. Ed Logg was already experienced with developing for the Famicom even before Atari Inc's implosion based upon some online interviews I've read.

 

The console business was different than computers and Tengen did support both the Atari ST and the Amiga in Europe. Ed Logg even discovered Tetris via the Atari ST version, so even though Atari Games didn't care for Atari Corp, their staff were intimately familiar with its product line.

 

Namco later sold Atari Games back to its employees who then sold it back to [Time] Warner and that's about the time both Atari Games and Atari Corp became chummy while both sued Nintendo for their monopolistic business practices. That led to the Atari Games library being available for the Atari [Corp] Lynx and some of the titles [Pit Fighter and Klax, for example] were going to get 7800 ports before the 7800 was discontinued. There was a later falling-out between both again over disputed royalty payments and that's probably why the Jaguar didn't have any Atari Games/Tengen titles available for it when the console launched.

[KevinMos3]

Thinking about 7800 sprites in 160B mode, I have made this Double Dragon sprite as an example...

 

 

 

Fantastic sprite as always, Marco. I'd really like to see a 3-color version. It would be very difficult to make it look good, but I'm curious what you could come up with. I've given it thought in the past, but even the NES version has 4 colors.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KevinMos3

[DracIsBack]

Heck, even BasketBrawl has better looking player sprites.

 

I think Basketbrawl is one of the better looking 7800 games in general from the era. has some game play issues, but always loved how it looked

[Trebor]

I think Basketbrawl is one of the better looking 7800 games in general from the era. has some game play issues, but always loved how it looked

 

Agreed; and that is even more on point towards what I was alluding to...The time, effort, and care that was put into such an unknown and less popular title such as BasketBrawl contains such well done graphics and animation, how much more so for a prominent Arcade smash hit, the well known and popular Double Dragon. This game should have been (could be) so much more on the 7800.

[+Defender_2600]

 

 

I'd really like to see a 3-color version. It would be very difficult to make it look good, but I'm curious what you could come up with. I've given it thought in the past, but even the NES version has 4 colors.

 

NES to 7800 160 mode 3 colors. Just an example.

 

(*The NTSC NES pixel aspect ratio is 1.15)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Trebor]

That "7800 (little)" is the bare minimum of how the sprites should have looked. Not the 'slightly better than 2600' sprites that were included. Awesome work as always, Marco!

 

While the earlier posted "160B" mock-up may be something they would not have delivered even with 'NES-like' developer conditions, sprites falling somewhere between the "NES" and "Amiga", should have been more than doable at the time with the right circumstances/situation for the developers. Your "7800" comparison above, but with four colors, providing (golden) blond hair, seems like a very likely candidate (Although red hair was the NES/SMS choice for some reason). May need to change the flesh tones to make it appear better with the (different color) hair - not sure.