atariksi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 For some odd reason, C64 people think it's better to just POKE a register and set a graphics mode rather than have a coprocessor let you set various graphics/text modes on a scanline basis and thus save CPU time and memory. They have less CPU time to begin with and they still prefer not having that option. ? LDA #$40 STA $D01B $D01B SPBGPR Sprite Priority Register so... what now? What now? Well the fact that you need to multiplex four missile graphics to make ONE sprite so thats 5 register writes to 4 just for ONE C64 hardware sprite type graphic using missiles for EVERY SINGLE ONE. Sorry that one just got me started No that reference is to a register used to set GTIA modes-- you know the ones you have ignored thus far in your biased partial understanding of Atari. You know the Graphics 10 which produces 23 colors/scan line w/o using any DLIs, IRQs, nor interlace and lets you pick the colors from a palette: 10 PRINT "Atari BASIC program to show 23 colors/scanline in Graphics 10" 20 PRINT " By Krishna Software Inc." 30 GRAPHICS 10 40 POKE 704,16:POKE 705,32:POKE 706,64:POKE 707,128:POKE 623,16+32+128 50 POKE 708,4:POKE 709,8:POKE 710,2:POKE 711,13:POKE 712,255 60 POKE 53248,64:POKE 53249,80:POKE 53250,160:POKE 53251,176 70 POKE 53252,120:POKE 53253,124:POKE 53254,128:POKE 53255,132 80 FOR T=53256 TO 53265:POKE T,255:NEXT T 90 FOR T=0 TO 95:COLOR T/12:PLOT 0,T:DR. 79,T:NEXT T 100 FOR T=0 TO 79:COLOR T:PLOT T,96:DR. T,191:NEXT T 110 GOTO 110 RUN You don't need to set 5 registers to get one sprite-- you need to set 4 registers to move the 5th player or you can simply reuse one of the first four players by setting one HPOS register if shape is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 AFAIK Eidolon use same resolution than c64 one, ROFL uses mode7 while Eidolon uses mode10. Mercenary 64k version user can choose the mode he wants to play lowres mode7 or highres mode15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Please listen to this one (real stuff is strongly recommended, alternatively Atari800WinPLus 4.0 final but expect partial lack of quality) and you may start to wonder how is it done. Presumably some of the quality comes from throwing shedloads of CPU grind at it and turning the screen off... but i'm not a sound person, it sounds good to me but only minimally clearer than the first real part of (starts at 0:50) and that has the screen enabled and other things going on that require the CPU simultaneously. The C64 version in no way sound like 8 bit, as the producer writes. It also is using filtering to cut the high notes and make it a bit less noisy. The impulses of the Atari version are clearer, because they are faster... approx 2 times faster. You say "minimally" but it is more than "minimally" clearer. The point of C64 freaks as always. a) The C64 can do "everything" even if only at half speed of the A8. b) The A8 cannot do this or that, because it would run slower than on the C64. Look at Space Harrier. Fullscreen 3D, the screen is moving , neither blank lines nor dropped frames, and you have clear sound(approx 1,5 times of C64 - faster) there. Leaving the Atari 3 times faster than the C64 for this combination of hardware usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 > The impulses of the Atari version are clearer, because they are faster... a8 module that i send use low rate samples (A8 can play much better samples with this mod player - soon ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 > The impulses of the Atari version are clearer, because they are faster... a8 module that i send use low rate samples (A8 can play much better samples with this mod player - soon ) Which means, it can be even better... hehe So let's see... em.... hear the faster impulses with higher rated samples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the maddestman Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Shame really as you are all stuck with rubbish Winblows now anyway no Atari and no Commodore!! Now THAT is something I will wholeheartedly agree with! Personally I think it's a real shame that the Amigas Workbench didn't end up as the dominant OS, as as far as I'm concerned it was the best out of Windows/MacOS/TOS/Workbench (versions 2.x and above of course, 1.x was nowhere near as good) - it was flexible, powerful and while wasn't perfect, it positively FLEW on a 14MHz CPU, which certainly couldn't be said about Windows or the Mac OS, and I don't think anyone who has used both TOS and Workbench could really try to argue that TOS was anywhere near as powerful as Workbench, Arexx was awesome for inter-process communications and really provided some awesome potential. Instead now most people are using various versions of Windows, or *nix variants, which I think are poor cousins to what Workbench could have been if development on Workbench hadn't stopped. And yes, I know Workbench has been recently developed, but it is not a real competitor lik it could have been if it hadn't been for the useless twit that was running Commodore in the early 90s. Sorry, I get a bit fired up about this, feel free to bring this back to topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 ...The point of C64 freaks as always. a) The C64 can do "everything" even if only at half speed of the A8. b) The A8 cannot do this or that, because it would run slower than on the C64. ... It's playing the "ignorance of my system" game to their advantage. Whatever they say A8 can do, just say C64 can do it as well since most likely an A8 expert won't also be a C64 expert so they'll get away with it although it may never be doable. Then they have sidekicks who play along with them so a perfect Chewbacca defense scenario where the atarians now start buying it that it is doable on C64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 http://oxyron-party.untergrund.net/fanta_in_space.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 A promising start but it just degrades into a mass of crusty samples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxl Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 > 4-channel audio hmm, why not use 5-channel GTIA? sounds different than POKEY heh http://atari.pl/anogaia.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastRobPlus Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Personally I think it's a real shame that the Amigas Workbench didn't end up as the dominant OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bountybob Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 C64 Generally had better sound Atari 800 had more colours.C64 wins though because it had much more software support.The most successfull 8 Bit home computer ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 It's better to have a DL do the mode changes since it's only 1 cycle of DMA; and there are more options to change to on Atari. 1 cycle assuming you change the gfx mode all the time. But look at the average game: Most only change the mode 2 times per frame (playfield + scores), many others do not change the mode a single time. So it's ALL display list cycles of a frame vs ~2 mode changes via CPU. It's not that many DMA cycles even if the mode repeats since for default text mode, the entire display list is 32 bytes and then Graphics 2 it's even less. I have seen games toggle modes on the fly to show text messages (with their own LMS instructions) and that would use up less memory and be less CPU intensive. Worst case turn off DL if there's tons of repeats of mode: Location 54272: Turn off the playfield 0 Use narrow playfield 1 Use normal playfield 2 Use wide playfield 3 Enable missile DMA 4 Enable player DMA 8 Enable both player and missile DMA 12 Single line player resolution 16 Enable DMA Fetch instructions 32 <-------- DL DMA (oh, no it's bit 5 again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 C64 Generally had better sound Atari 800 had more colours.C64 wins though because it had much more software support.The most successfull 8 Bit home computer ever. You are making vague statements; "generally" and "most successful". I don't accept "more software" or marketing scams as a method to determine which machine is better. Apple II also had more software than Atari. There are objective means to determine if a machine is better than by looking at people buying more machines because they are cheaper and more advertised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 as far as comparisons, was it just me, or was the 3d smoother on the atari 800 mercenary vs. the c64 mercenary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) Probably... faster machine, and the more sensible bitmapping arrangement means you can do better optimised line-draw routines. Edited April 2, 2009 by Rybags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Probably... faster machine, and the more sensible bitmapping arrangement means you can do better optimised line-draw routines. That LMS is pretty useful for making line sizes powers of two whether for scrolling or for routines that require address calculations since you can simply use a line width of 32, 64, 128, 256, etc. and also make window sizes smaller as well to increase the speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 It's better to have a DL do the mode changes since it's only 1 cycle of DMA; and there are more options to change to on Atari. 1 cycle assuming you change the gfx mode all the time. But look at the average game: Most only change the mode 2 times per frame (playfield + scores), many others do not change the mode a single time. So it's ALL display list cycles of a frame vs ~2 mode changes via CPU. It's not that many DMA cycles even if the mode repeats since for default text mode, the entire display list is 32 bytes and then Graphics 2 it's even less. I know how much cycles/bytes a DL needs. But you were trying to make it a "look we change mode with 1 cycle and you need much more"-issue. What I was trying to explain to you: A "mode change" of the DL doesn't take 1 cycle because you don't change the mode every mode line. You repeat a mode line over and over again, and then somewhere at the bottom you start the same again repeating another mode line over and over again. So in the end you have the entire cycles of the DL for just 2 mode changes. That's the average case as you see in a majority of games, often with DLIs at the mode changes to also change color registers. If you do those color register change DLIs and compare it to a similar case on C64 (2 mode change + color change raster IRQs) the mode changes eat 2x 6 clock cycles for 2x LDA STA. It's not as bad for C64 as you want it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 as far as comparisons, was it just me, or was the 3d smoother on the atari 800 mercenary vs. the c64 mercenary? Yes. And the Lucasfilm 3D games are also better on A8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 > 4-channel audio hmm, why not use 5-channel GTIA? sounds different than POKEY heh http://atari.pl/anogaia.mp3 Why using digitizing ? 4 Channels tune and one channel is played with >Ring-Modulation< . Hm... filters active and 4 voices available with standard 50Hz programming??? What's wrong with the POKEY chip ? mayom.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 as far as comparisons, was it just me, or was the 3d smoother on the atari 800 mercenary vs. the c64 mercenary? Yes. And the Lucasfilm 3D games are also better on A8. And we know, the C64 ones are the optimized ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Or this one. A fully different style but simply programmed sounds. Sawtooth.... Triangle... Filter... E-Guitar.... Chords.... Modulations Instrumentarium.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) C64 Generally had better sound Atari 800 had more colours.C64 wins though because it had much more software support.The most successfull 8 Bit home computer ever. Sadly so on the software support but as you see here the Atari crowd is still plugging away with new stuff!!! It's very exciting Edited April 2, 2009 by atarian63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+therealbountybob Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) C64 Generally had better sound Atari 800 had more colours.C64 wins though because it had much more software support.The most successfull 8 Bit home computer ever. Now I know why I couldn't get that username I hope this topic is going to lead to some great new games to prove that the A8 is by far superior p.s. And the Atari is the only one to have Gwobby's Adventure... hmm maybe that's not a good argument for the machine Edited April 2, 2009 by therealbountybob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 C64 Generally had better sound Atari 800 had more colours.C64 wins though because it had much more software support.The most successfull 8 Bit home computer ever. Now I know why I couldn't get that username I hope this topic is going to lead to some great new games to prove that the A8 is by far superior p.s. And the Atari is the only one to have Gwobby's Adventure... hmm maybe that's not a good argument for the machine Good enough for him though. Going by what sells more and has more software, everyone would have a PC today and miss out on the unique stuff other platforms have to offer. Most people buy computers without knowing technically which hardware is superior. Regarding username, I guess he must have bountybob for C64, but you have the real (better) version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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