Atari v Commodore

[PeteD]

where do u keep pulling these comparison games from? "totally shit games 'r' us?"

 

either of those invasion games look like the game has crashed on screen and corrupted the graphics.

 

Steve

 

 

Great isn't it, Mastertronic, UKs top selling software house during the 80s/early90s.

 

Only because the games were £1.99 each. Sometimes (as mentioned before) games were even bought just for their music. I've paid like £14.99 for some appalllllling stuff for C64 in the day

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

Secondly, Allas has a right to do that in this topic as per original poster's request.

 

Erm... over 200 pages in of people pretty much ignoring the original question is probably a little late to be slapping someone's wrist over not quite sticking to the topic!

[frenchman]

[

Sorry, but you really don't seem to have the slightest idea of how much i do or don't know... if i got some of what i've said here into print in Retro Gamer, would that somehow validate it for you like the David Crane quote in your broken analogy?

 

 

Bit of a difference between you and David Crane, like a whole universe...wouldn't you say so?

[atariksi]

C64 users may wonder why we need to BOOT a DOS to do anything.

 

Practically every computer ever made does it that way. 99% of the world's computer users could turn that around and say "Why did Commodore do it that way?"

 

How could Commodore miss the boot part given the Apples, Ataris, PCs, etc. all had them? Perhaps, they were trying to maintain backward compatibility of unbootability and Load "*",8,1.

[atariksi]

Secondly, Allas has a right to do that in this topic as per original poster's request.

 

Erm... over 200 pages in of people pretty much ignoring the original question is probably a little late to be slapping someone's wrist over not quite sticking to the topic!

 

That's not what my comment was doing. You are picking it out of context.

[atariksi]

But C64 is not doing the work of a DLI-- you are picking some example where IRQs work better.

 

That's pretty much the point, you have a little more housekeeping to do and nobody from either camp has denied that, but those extra cycles go towards a significant gain in flexibility and there are more cases where raster interrupts are favourable to (and indeed more efficient than) display list interrupts than the other way around. If you want a split every four scanlines over a character-based screen (a real world example at the moment, because my currently back-burnered A8 project could do with exactly that[1]) that's no problem with a raster interrupt but the DLI either needs to consume significant amounts of resources in wait loops or call in another interrupt to deal with the bits it can't do.

 

[1] The project isn't back-burnered because of the splits every for scanlines thing, it's on hold because i've got a C64 game to complete for around a week today... come to think of it, i'd better go! =-)

 

I don't think there are more cases where raster interrupts require splitting mode lines. That's your speculation. In general, Atari games/applications use DLIs exactly for what they are meant. And remember that in single scanline modes (which includes GTIA modes), you do get DLIs on every scan line in the most efficient way possible (better than IRQs).

[analmux]

It's the best thing to keep this thread alive. There'll come a day the post# will exceed 16383. Then the commies need to start again at 0, because VIC2 only has 14bit address bus, whereas antic has full 16bits and don't need to do row/column decoding. Then they'll be gone...so maybe that's another bonus point for atari.

[PeteD]

Exactly, works the other way around too. If it's not done on C64 because nobody had bothered with it, you cannot claim it's not possible.

 

To be honest, i was being a tad sarky there; in this case there are other games have done isometric 3D on the C64 to similar specifications, meaning it's proven to a reasonable degree by those if not specifically by a working iso 3D version of [a]Amaurote[/b] - that's a different matter to using the argument in a more general sense as you did when i picked you up on it and the David Crane analogy doesn't work in the latter case because as i said there's nobody taking the "i've done it" role.

 

 

There you go, that backfired didn't it. But that's the trouble with the C64er's, always taking the mick (trying hard anyway)....but don't know much.

 

And another blanket statement seemingly designed to annoy anyone who might call themself a C64er like myself. This is why I got into an argument the other night you have no idea how much I know or TMR knows but we don't try to tell you that you know less than anyone. And Atarianwhatever still thinks I'm the rude one

 

Pete

 

 

Hey, I thought you accepted my apology, obviously not. Ok, no worries. Guess as atarian63 said, I AM THE NICER PERSON.

 

I had, and it was very generous of you to do so, most people on forums wouldn't bother. I didn't realise that accepting an apology meant u get to abuse me again whenever you feel like it. If you didn't realise you were, fair enough but then don't get shirty about it when I question your statements.

 

*edit*

I notice since I pressed reply you edited and added "Guess as atarian63 said, I AM THE NICER PERSON. Thanking you." I really don't get your problem and if you think your last couple of posts prove your "niceness" then you're living on another planet

 

 

 

Pete

Edited September 4, 2009 by PeteD

[STE'86]

where do u keep pulling these comparison games from? "totally shit games 'r' us?"

 

either of those invasion games look like the game has crashed on screen and corrupted the graphics.

 

Steve

 

 

Great isn't it, Mastertronic, UKs top selling software house during the 80s/early90s.

 

 

Yes mate, i have heard of them vaguely . 25 years ago i was a c64 graphic designer the first time around.

 

i just dont remember them being that crap.

 

Steve

[analmux]

I don't think there are more cases where raster interrupts require splitting mode lines. That's your speculation. In general, Atari games/applications use DLIs exactly for what they are meant. And remember that in single scanline modes (which includes GTIA modes), you do get DLIs on every scan line in the most efficient way possible (better than IRQs).

 

Neither of the two wins. We should look at application.

 

DLIs are mostly used for doing colour bars / palette changes, which automatically scrolls along when (charmode) lines are moving vertically> Thus indeed exactly what they should do, without complications. On C64 all the y-coordinates (=raster IRQ timings) would need to be moved also.

 

Raster interrupts are mostly used for sprite (MOB) multiplexers. Then another type of flexibility is needed. On C64 no one needs to add colours using DLIs, so the raster interrupts aren't used for that. On atari no vertical PMG multiplexing is needed, so no multiplexers, only x-repositioning. The more control is not only a feature, but it MUST be used, as VIC2 sprites must be glued together.

 

so, the application differs.

[TMR]

Sorry, but you really don't seem to have the slightest idea of how much i do or don't know... if i got some of what i've said here into print in Retro Gamer, would that somehow validate it for you like the David Crane quote in your broken analogy?

 

 

Bit of a difference between you and David Crane, like a whole universe...wouldn't you say so?

 

Ah, more insults... hardly surprising from such a "nice" person but why don't you try actually answering the question i asked after that sentence? Just to remind you, it was "what's your background to be able to judge the claims made by the programmers in this thread".

[TMR]

It's the best thing to keep this thread alive. There'll come a day the post# will exceed 16383. Then the commies need to start again at 0, because VIC2 only has 14bit address bus, whereas antic has full 16bits and don't need to do row/column decoding.

 

Shouldn't the ANTIC already have wrapped around at 4,096...? All that really happens at 16,384 is the VIC-II bunnies change the video bank and we lose the Atari 400 users. =-)

[Rockford]

Well, at least in his quest, Rockford is bringing up some obscure C64 nuggets some of us haven't much heard of.

 

Really.. so, Barbarian, Blinky's and Rampage are also among them ? Interesting observation

[Rockford]

Mastertronic, a UK mass-producing cheap games company.

But sometimes they get it right:

Mastertronic, a UK mass-producing cheap games company.

But sometimes they get it right:

Amaurote Atari 8-bit:

isometric view, excellent playabilty

 

Amaurote C64:

top down view because C64 couldn't handle the isometric and totally unplayable. In Rockfords words: The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

 

This example has been already shown, so try harder please and find something new.

 

 

It's so good it's allowed to be shown twice.

 

 

 

Is that so, or maybe you cannot find another one, because they don't exist ? Anyway, let's hope you will not be forced to do this again and again, since we would die with boredom

[Rockford]

 

Anyway, here's you, you look and play horrible on C64 AND A8, only you manage to do so (Attention, these two games are NOT Boulder Dash):

Rockford C64

Rockford A8

again, both from Mastertronic.

 

 

 

Do not get overexcited, please There is no use showing games that look the same on both computers.

[Rockford]

where do u keep pulling these comparison games from? "totally shit games 'r' us?"

 

either of those invasion games look like the game has crashed on screen and corrupted the graphics.

 

its not really proving anything that a crap looking atari game is marginally superior looking than a REALLY crap looking 64 game now is it?

 

and if scraping the bottom of the barrel to find such games is the only recourse to proving an atari game can look better than a 64 one then realistically u are only proving the opposite.

 

so lets just let the comparisons of crap games fade away i think

 

Steve

 

LOL I was to write something like that. What's more funny, if we take a closer look at attached pictures, we can see that C64 version has more colours than Atari's. An excellent example indeed

[analmux]

Shouldn't the ANTIC already have wrapped around at 4,096...?

I don't see why, as the Atarians are still here, aren't they?

 

 

All that really happens at 16,384 is the VIC-II bunnies change the video bank and we lose the Atari 400 users. =-)

Ah, the bunnies joined in for a help ...No bunnies needed for antic to have multiple LMS instructions, pointing to different banks, so a small change to Display List, no CPU intervention needed. Sorry

 

O.K.

A400'ies 'll drop off then.

Accepted.

[Rockford]

...

C-64 on the top again. The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

...

"humiliating" is really not needed there...

If you want people to take you seriouslly stay away from such phrases...

 

English is a beautiful language, there are so many more words you could use...

 

p.s. Never seen that game, really does look better on C64...

 

Popmilo, your posts and words are rational and reasonable to me, so all I can say you are right here. Probably I have gone too far with teasing and I am sorry for that. Anyway, soon I am going to prove that C-64 can handle iso 3D games better than Atari

 

Your reasoning was already refuted and rather than reply to that you go on with your same reasoning. You have NOT proven Atari is inferior with examples that show off wider sprites or color RAM of 40*25 of 16 colors force fitted to every object on earth. You need to find some other hardware aspect to show what C64 hardware can do. What goes into building a particular game is not necessarily what the hardware matches up with. You neither stick to original topic nor the general topic of "Atari vs. Commodore."

 

Funny, I don't remember you saying anything like that when Allas was doing exactly the same thing. Maybe because he was showing (example after example) games that look better on Atari ? You know, it is called a double morality

 

First of all, I don't think you even understood what I wrote above (re-read). Secondly, Allas has a right to do that in this topic as per original poster's request. Thirdly, I am arguing against the conclusions that you are drawing from your examples. Fourthly, ... I'll stop for now until you get the first three statements.

 

I understood you perfectly. You would like me to stop posting, since you don't like what you see. Anyway, if you are tough enough please scroll down, I am showing the other type of game that can be better on C64, even though a lot of atarians have said otherwise

Edited September 4, 2009 by Rockford

[Rockford]

 

Amaurote C64:

top down view because C64 couldn't handle the isometric and totally unplayable. In Rockfords words: The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

 

OK then, let's see if C-64 really cannot handle iso 3d games

 

5 - CHIMERA

 

C-64

C-64

C-64

 

C-64 stomps on Atari again, since it has music (by Rob Hubbard) and digitized voice (not such things on Atari), more colours on sreen and works much faster. Atari version is sloooooow. If you don't believe just check it

 

ATARI

ATARI

ATARI

Edited September 4, 2009 by Rockford

[analmux]

(addendum)

 

Shouldn't the ANTIC already have wrapped around at 4,096...?

Again another advantage of Antic. We can use the wrapping to do (vertical) scrolling in graphics 7 without the need for doing large block copies. No double buffering needed. Add a 2nd LMS instruction to have horizontal wrapping, and we can use MWP scrolling method....all 8 directions scrolling without double buffering, and without large block copy.

 

I'm not sure how VIC2 deals with vertical wrapping anyway.

[analmux]

5 - CHIMERA

Is this colour on purpose? Or just a poor choice from c64 palette?

[PeteD]

5 - CHIMERA

Is this colour on purpose? Or just a poor choice from c64 palette?

 

[TMR]

I don't think there are more cases where raster interrupts require splitting mode lines. That's your speculation.

 

It's not speculation as such on the C64 side since amongst other things the comment was based on my own need for it in the past for both demos and games and things like half FLI mode requiring it, there are hundreds of demos (as well as a few games, the MOOD previews for example) utilising that mode or variations on it. One of my early "still learning to code" colour splitting routines worked by pulling up a raster interrupt every other scanline to change the colours...

 

In general, Atari games/applications use DLIs exactly for what they are meant. And remember that in single scanline modes (which includes GTIA modes), you do get DLIs on every scan line in the most efficient way possible (better than IRQs).

 

You keep saying "for what they're meant" but surely the function is being defined by the form; they're only able to do that easily so most programmers don't buck the hardware's trend... and yes, you get a DLI wherever in single scanline modes, but that loses you one of the five playfield colours and multiples the screen memory overheads by eight in the process...

 

And at the moment, i've got the basics of a sprite routine on the A8 that would work far better if i could get a split every four scanlines rather than every eight.

 

Raster interrupts are mostly used for sprite (MOB) multiplexers. Then another type of flexibility is needed. On C64 no one needs to add colours using DLIs, so the raster interrupts aren't used for that.

 

Yes they are, there are games that use raster-generated splits to the background and multicolour registers and a few examples always crop up in these threads with Mayhem In Monsterland being the first example that springs to mind although the other Apex games Creatures, Creatures 2, Retrograde and Cyberdyne Warrior all use variations on the theme. It's certainly used quite a bit for presentation code and widely in demos and intros as well.

[TMR]

Again another advantage of Antic. We can use the wrapping to do (vertical) scrolling in graphics 7 without the need for doing large block copies. No double buffering needed. Add a 2nd LMS instruction to have horizontal wrapping, and we can use MWP scrolling method....all 8 directions scrolling without double buffering, and without large block copy.

 

I'm not sure how VIC2 deals with vertical wrapping anyway.

 

As you say, officially it doesn't so generally speaking we block copy and double buffer (although i'm going to do an Atarian thing here and say "but imagine what we could do with a RAM expansion!" =-). Unofficially, VSP delays the start of the badline and causes the screen to move right, as columns pass off the right hand border they reappear on the left one line down and the space before the VSP is "dead space". Line crunch/VSP combinations cause the screen memory to wrap around to the end of the last page it's using, so bitmaps are 8,192 bytes long and screen/colour RAM 1,024 bytes.

 

As an aside because you might be interested, the Commodore Plus/4 does something similar except that because it has a writeable raster register (try saying that three times fast!) it can be told to do interesting things like start the screen early and then be forced to carry on displaying when it's meant to stop, cycling through the RAM after the first iteration; somewhere i've got tests of a 32 character line high display for it (getting the join into a workable state for software sprites was... erm, interesting) and although i've not done it myself yet i think it's possible to use a variation on the theme to scroll the screen in a way vaguely similar to the A8.

[TMR]

5 - CHIMERA

Is this colour on purpose? Or just a poor choice from c64 palette?

 

Nah, it was ported from the Speccy version - the C64 has less saturation!

 

All that really happens at 16,384 is the VIC-II bunnies change the video bank and we lose the Atari 400 users. =-)

Ah, the bunnies joined in for a help ...No bunnies needed for antic to have multiple LMS instructions, pointing to different banks

 

Aww, i like bunnies!

 

so a small change to Display List, no CPU intervention needed. Sorry

 

So that'd be a couple of instructions executed by the CPU to change the display list... an LDA/STA pair like the C64 uses to change a bank perhaps...? =-)

Edited September 4, 2009 by TMR