ThomSW Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) C64 scene has been crying for millions of years (yeah, even before your "star" has born). That's how all the seas and oceans were made. Happy crying, fanbOIs! And Rockford still hasn't answered to the question... Edited September 8, 2009 by ThomSW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hm.... Ugly C64 games? What about this one? Not just poor grapics, even slow as hell.... Same game could run on the A8 in 16 colours and 4 times faster... Well, that "ugly" game had an average mark of 96% in all reviews in magazines of that time... It was made for almost all 8 and 16bit computers of its time... Except A8 ........................ shame.... Enough said. Besides, "woulda, shoulda, coulda" always gets you nowhere. You see, if people had wings they would be able to fly. Particular in the "3D" the "woulda..." has hooks of reality. We know that the A8 easily can outdo the C64 in 3D, and we know that ANTIC can be used as a "line blitter". The A8 has a real useful mode for showing 3D scenes, and so on ... And we know the fact that "3D development" was reduced to some silly CPU calculations with a lower resolution, caused by using transitions instead of solid colours. That's why the AMIGA version wasn't much better than the ST version.... They only cared about making money without using their brains. It's just like developing an Airplane in the deep sea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) USA way ahead of the Europeans even after 1985. Sorry, UK, no win, personally I think UK programmers suck more. Funny, at the same time you constantly show us Amaurote as a proof of ATARI power. Let's see who made this game and when..... : TA-DA.... Brits in 1987 You are too funny :D Wow, Amaurote was made in 87 and it looks like crap on C64: Those UK programmers REALLY suck, even on C64 in 1987. Those smilies choking you again, I reckon. Why do your supposedly clever answers always backfire, I wonder? BTW, aren't you dead yet? WOW, what a striking logic. If this game and UK programmers sucked EVEN on C64 in 1987 (your own words) it means that they sucked on ATARI too. Could it really be, that the last resort of all Atarians, this beautiful, "real iso 3d" pearl (also made by those "incapable Brits" in 1987), turned out to be a crappy game .... horror.... Stop it mate, please, or I'll die laughing Could it really be a crappy game...according to frenchman, absolutely YES That's British programmers for you, they suck when compared to USA programmers on any platform. Not a laughing matter actually, but goes to show how shallow UK C64 users are. And they laugh about it hysterically for no apparent reason. Even more so when they, like Rockford all the time, get it wrong. BTW, you said you can't post here so often as you have better things to do. Another lie? Oh, now you promised to die of laughter AND (previous) of boredom. Any chance of this happen soon PLEASE? Edited September 8, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Really ridiculos ... THE 8 bit machine for 3D wasn't even considered for a game like Driller... See the video and then the mockup picture... The ATARI version could have been "lightyears" better than the C64 version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Really ridiculos ... THE 8 bit machine for 3D wasn't even considered for a game like Driller... THE 8 bit machine for 3D? PC Engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) >The ATARI version could have been "lightyears" better than the C64 version.< Of course it could, but you try to convince these Commodore women, they all laugh hysterically and get their knickers in a twist. Edited September 8, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) ...such ones as you effectively refrain me from buying, using or even doing anything for Commy comps.... @Rockford: Hehe, it was joke but you just swallowed it AS IS. :> Actually if there would be some Commy-based project where i may be of some help i will seriously join it (no matter what ya say about). Edited September 8, 2009 by miker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) >The ATARI version could have been "lightyears" better than the C64 version.< Of course it could, but you try to convince these Commodore women, they all laugh hysterically and get their knickers in a twist. One of the most talented 3D coders EVER was the expert who wrote the Fractal routines for Lucasfilm games, now his routine runs 1/3 faster than the C64 port of his 6502 code after so many optimisations NOBODY HAS EVER DISASSEMBLED HIS ROUTINES AND GOT THEM TO EVEN WORK ON AN ST OR AMIGA LET ALONE 8-BIT ANYTHING! Now factor into that that the Atari code is running 50% lower resolution and you get the real figure of 20-25 faster in real terms processing power than a 1mhz 6510 C64. 4x speed...my arse! It wouldn't even be as fast as the Spectrum or Amstrad versions haha hardly all conquering. Is this where we start talking about the A8 non-existent version of Elite *would* have creamed the BBC Micro version too then? As for masculinity...wasn't it the French soldiers who lay down their guns in seconds when they shit their pants at the site of the 3rd Reich army on their soil and turned into women haha get the dress for the french[wo]man Edited September 8, 2009 by oky2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Is this where we start talking about the A8 non-existent version of Elite *would* have creamed the BBC Micro version too then? *cough*, *cough* http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/149925-just-for-fun/page__view__findpost__p__1829298 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hm.... Ugly C64 games? What about this one? Not just poor grapics, even slow as hell.... Same game could run on the A8 in 16 colours and 4 times faster... Well, that "ugly" game had an average mark of 96% in all reviews in magazines of that time... It was made for almost all 8 and 16bit computers of its time... Except A8 ........................ shame.... Enough said. Besides, "woulda, shoulda, coulda" always gets you nowhere. You see, if people had wings they would be able to fly. Particular in the "3D" the "woulda..." has hooks of reality. We know that the A8 easily can outdo the C64 in 3D, and we know that ANTIC can be used as a "line blitter". The A8 has a real useful mode for showing 3D scenes, and so on ... And we know the fact that "3D development" was reduced to some silly CPU calculations with a lower resolution, caused by using transitions instead of solid colours. That's why the AMIGA version wasn't much better than the ST version.... They only cared about making money without using their brains. It's just like developing an Airplane in the deep sea... Seeing is believing, so until there is no ATARI version of this game (that works better than c64 one), this is only wishful thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 ...such ones as you effectively refrain me from buying, using or even doing anything for Commy comps.... @Rockford: Hehe, it was joke but you just swallowed it AS IS. :> Actually if there would be some Commy-based project where i may be of some help i will seriously join it (no matter what ya say about). It is nice to hear. As for me, I was only pulling your leg a little bit, so take it easy and peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 can we all agree on not having this childish discussions and flaming in terms of personal attacks? even I don't like sometimes Atariski and some others going over the edge but Rockford & frenchman...sorry... we are 30+ and not 5+... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 4x speed...my arse! It wouldn't even be as fast as the Spectrum or Amstrad versions haha hardly all conquering. You still have to learn very much, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Seeing is believing, so until there is no ATARI version of this game (that works better than c64 one), this is only wishful thinking Right... it's wishful thinking here. But no doubt about the A8's capabilities. The wishes are only referring to have some coder doing such game on the A8, swallowing all those nerd's games, that were only chasing behind the C64, and spit their lame games right into the toilet. Particular Driller (and related games) could have been outrageous on the A8 and the Amiga, if coders decided to do the right choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 ...and we know that ANTIC can be used as a "line blitter"... And it does this how exactly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 As for masculinity...wasn't it the French soldiers who lay down their guns in seconds when they shit their pants at the site of the 3rd Reich army on their soil and turned into women haha get the dress for the french[wo]man Oh! I remember that the British soldiers got wet pants as well while running to Dunkirk leaving their french comrades behind...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Now it's the British v French thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) I wasn't aware of this until I just searched, the Spectrum got a 3D version of "Carrier Command" but the C64 didn't EDIT: OK, so like the little piggy, the A8 got none Edited September 8, 2009 by Wrathchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 well... when watching the new Tarantino movie... I thought it was different... but seems now for hundreds of years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) As for masculinity...wasn't it the French soldiers who lay down their guns in seconds when they shit their pants at the site of the 3rd Reich army on their soil and turned into women haha get the dress for the french[wo]man They did, didn't they. Glad I'm not French. Mind you, they do have the best looking women in the world. Edited September 8, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 The multiplexor that occurs at high frequency (sub-frame speed) doesn't move player data. Maybe it's just me being slow this morning, but I don't quite get what you're saying there.. It's the 'high frequency (sub-frame speed)' bit that's confusing.. What exactly do you mean ? ... In multiplexing, the more you have to do on a scanline basis rather than in VBI, the worse (more overhead) so updating just HPOSes and leaving the Y-parameters for VBI is more optimal. Overhead builds at higher frequency if it's every scanline rather than every VBI. C64 would have been more optimal with sprites if they put the LSB of the positioning in a separate byte rather than the MSB. >Not true at all, then every man and his dog would have been lazy and just used 2 pixel positioning, which looks pants.. Just look at some Ocean games (as I recall them being mostly guilty of this).. Technically, it's not "2 pixel positioning" but one color clock positioning as these machines are targetted towards TVs w/3.57Mhz color clock. So in many cases, it's sufficient given TV resolution and the way our mind looks at fast scrolling images. And going back to the point of multiplexing, updating 8-bit registers is faster (less overhead) than 9-bit registers. But you still have the option of doing 9-bit using a LSB register. >As for being more optimal, the cost of handling the LSB in a sprite multiplexor would have been more expensive than having to handle the MSB.. It would require more code to generate the packed LSB than for a packed MSB, or require messy setting of positions (like swapping around D0 & D8) in the game code which eats cycles.. Having a seperate MSB keeps the code logical, simple and faster at every single stage of the process.. First of all, you have to write two registers even if you scroll every color clock and secondly I don't see that big of a difference extracting LSB or MSB (algorithm differs). >If the code was working with a regular 9bit position in 16bits then the code to extract the LSB, and shift the remaining 8bits into position, is more expensive than just comparing the hi-byte and doing a ROL A to generate the MSB.. ... That's not the only way to structure it. You can treat one byte as color clock value and second byte as fractional color clock value which is essentially what it is. You can even use the other fractional bits but only write the topmost bit of fractional value (if needed). Regardless, it was more to do with reducing overhead and optimizing for 8-bit accesses. Heck, I prefer VCOUNT as 8-bit value since there's also the option of using a PADDLE counter in case you need a scanline counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Really ridiculos ... THE 8 bit machine for 3D wasn't even considered for a game like Driller... THE 8 bit machine for 3D? PC Engine? Silly comment. The PC Engine came almost 10 years later to the market... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 ...and we know that ANTIC can be used as a "line blitter"... And it does this how exactly ? Antic stores the last - via DMA read scanline - in its own memory. You can force ANTIC to reuse the memory for 1 to 16 scanlines ... So you don't get black/blank lines. It cost around 5 cycles and saves 40 cycles per scanline of DMA reads and additional 3 cycles of RAM refresh per scanline. On the screen it is just the correction of the aspect ratio. You can gain a resolution of 80x60 with 16 solid colours and the CPU runs faster than with a custom graphicsmode. The benefit? Have a look at the Sirpinskis at 2:32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 C64 scene has been crying for millions of years (yeah, even before your "star" has born). That's how all the seas and oceans were made. Happy crying, fanbOIs! And Rockford still hasn't answered to the question... He's just giving his opinions and speculations. Even in his latest biased sample, the title screen of the game on A8 boots up on a 16K machine and has more colors but game decided to go for standard 160*200 mode but with more accurate color selection and shading. C64 version requires NVG. I don't see how he measured it as 3X slower-- perhaps he was running on an emulator and had different settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 can we all agree on not having this childish discussions and flaming in terms of personal attacks? even I don't like sometimes Atariski and some others going over the edge but Rockford & frenchman...sorry... we are 30+ and not 5+... Respect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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