Atari v Commodore

[Artlover]

Heck, I really wished someone made a scrolling pinball game on the A8, like Pinball Dreams. People still cannot imagine what the Atari is capable of, until someone has proven it...

 

maybe you missed the c64 port ? it would be fun compare it to the 4-5 colored a8 counterpart

It would be fun if the C64 port was actually done and not just a WIP demo that seems to have been abandonded.

[Oswald]

Heck, I really wished someone made a scrolling pinball game on the A8, like Pinball Dreams. People still cannot imagine what the Atari is capable of, until someone has proven it...

 

maybe you missed the c64 port ? it would be fun compare it to the 4-5 colored a8 counterpart

It would be fun if the C64 port was actually done and not just a WIP demo that seems to have been abandonded.

 

atleast is exists. only the scoring logic is missing.

[Artlover]

atleast is exists. only the scoring logic is missing.

Where do you get that idea?

 

I'm playing it now, even the intro says it's missing most game play.

 

Bumpers and stuff are just dead objects that the ball can bounce off of, but don't push. No lights/animiations of any kind when hitting bumpers/switches/whatever. Like you mentioned, no scoring. No cohesiveness either, as you have load each level yourself manually as if each is a stand along program.

 

The only thing that works is flippers and general ball movement. Needs a whole lot more then just scoring logic to make it complete.

[Crazyace]

a8 already has to juggle around to show more than 5 colors... furthermore c64 could do this game in hires, not so the a8.

I think even the A8 could attempt this in hires, but it wouldn't be as easy as on the C64 - I dont actually know why it's not in hires anyway - the original was ported to MSX, which is quite similar to the C64 hires mode

Plus it's very easy to show 5 colours per line on the atari ( not thinking about the GTIA modes ) - more if difficult , but it's impossible to show 128 colours on the C64 ( without TV hacks such as flickering )

 

vic 20 was the first computer to sell a million. its never a technical problem to make a fucking good machine for the time, but how much will it cost?

speaking about retro: commodore pet was the first home pc.

 

Apple II June 77

Pet October 77

TRS80 (announced) August 77 - so probally later

Atari 800 (announced 78 ) - definitely later

 

 

When the Atari 800 came out it was pretty price competitive - especially as only the Apple II offered colour graphics..

The Vic-20 was pretty nice for the price though

 

Heck, I really wished someone made a scrolling pinball game on the A8, like Pinball Dreams. People still cannot imagine what the Atari is capable of, until someone has proven it...

 

maybe you missed the c64 port ? it would be fun compare it to the 4-5 colored a8 counterpart

It would be fun if the C64 port was actually done and not just a WIP demo that seems to have been abandonded.

 

atleast is exists. only the scoring logic is missing.

 

That's really cool - I loved playing pinball dreams & fantasies on the Amiga. How difficult was it to reproduce it on the C64?

[Tezz]

Moving on from the initial primative layout example of Ping Pong, here it is now with more colour added with some shading to add a little depth... and the cost of this addition? nothing.. in fact 2 players have now been removed.

 

This colouring can go further still, it's just an initial quick example btw.

[emkay]

maybe you missed the c64 port ? it would be fun compare it to the 4-5 colored a8 counterpart

 

No, I didn't miss it. But you don't seem to nearly realize that such a scrolling Pinball is possible after all possibilities of the A8 are thrown together.... with real 256 colours if the coder decides.

[Crazyace]

Moving on from the initial primative layout example of Ping Pong, here it is now with more colour added with some shading to add a little depth... and the cost of this addition? nothing.. in fact 2 players have now been removed.

 

This colouring can go further still, it's just an initial quick example btw.

 

That's really nice - I'd be tempted to make the hires boundary between brown / cyan at the top look lores to match the lower section ( and avoid artifacting )

[Oswald]

Apple II June 77

Pet October 77

TRS80 (announced) August 77 - so probally later

Atari 800 (announced 78 ) - definitely later

 

"Announced and demonstrated in January of 1977 at the Consumer Electronics Show in Chicago, months before the Apple II or Radio Shack TRS80, the Commodore PET was the worlds first "real" computer"

 

apple II started to sell earlier than the pet tho, correct.

 

That's really cool - I loved playing pinball dreams & fantasies on the Amiga. How difficult was it to reproduce it on the C64?

 

pretty hard. it would be easyer on todays beefed up a8s with the extra memory. the biggest problem was to squeeze it into 64k. the game has to realtime depack slope,collision, and masking tables (needed when the ball is under something). the math is at 24 bit precision. unused parts of the game bitmap holds data (turned invisible with the color attributes)

[Oswald]

atleast is exists. only the scoring logic is missing.

Where do you get that idea?

 

I'm playing it now, even the intro says it's missing most game play.

 

Bumpers and stuff are just dead objects that the ball can bounce off of, but don't push. No lights/animiations of any kind when hitting bumpers/switches/whatever. Like you mentioned, no scoring. No cohesiveness either, as you have load each level yourself manually as if each is a stand along program.

 

The only thing that works is flippers and general ball movement. Needs a whole lot more then just scoring logic to make it complete.

 

from the coder himself. you may be playing an old version, I saw the bumpers and ligths working. the rest of the stuff that has to happen when you hit something is what I dubbed as game logic. this game had no anims on the amiga iirc.

[Oswald]

maybe you missed the c64 port ? it would be fun compare it to the 4-5 colored a8 counterpart

 

No, I didn't miss it. But you don't seem to nearly realize that such a scrolling Pinball is possible after all possibilities of the A8 are thrown together.... with real 256 colours if the coder decides.

 

judging on the g2f gallery I'm pretty much doubt it would look like anything as a 256 color picture. I would be suprised if the tables as standalone pictures could be done in c64 quality.

[emkay]

Moving on from the initial primative layout example of Ping Pong, here it is now with more colour added with some shading to add a little depth... and the cost of this addition? nothing.. in fact 2 players have now been removed.

 

This colouring can go further still, it's just an initial quick example btw.

 

I'm pretty sure, it is possible to have this fully in hires.

can someone give me a "hires" lineup of this pic?

[emkay]

judging on the g2f gallery I'm pretty much doubt it would look like anything as a 256 color picture. I would be suprised if the tables as standalone pictures could be done in c64 quality.

 

Blablabla...

 

Graph2font really does not support all GTIA features. It also does not support correct cpu timing when using a graphics kernel.

And, you know what? Pictures never show the action during gameplay.

 

As I wrote before. It is no problem to move the "standalone pictures up and down with only some commands, leaving enough cpu time for game handling, flipper and ball movement. the only "worse" would be the ball's resolution.

 

And there is again a failure in your sentence "reach C64 quality". We don't need C64 quality, if coders decide to use the Atari quality instead.

[Oswald]

judging on the g2f gallery I'm pretty much doubt it would look like anything as a 256 color picture. I would be suprised if the tables as standalone pictures could be done in c64 quality.

 

Blablabla...

 

Graph2font really does not support all GTIA features. It also does not support correct cpu timing when using a graphics kernel.

And, you know what? Pictures never show the action during gameplay.

 

As I wrote before. It is no problem to move the "standalone pictures up and down with only some commands, leaving enough cpu time for game handling, flipper and ball movement. the only "worse" would be the ball's resolution.

 

And there is again a failure in your sentence "reach C64 quality". We don't need C64 quality, if coders decide to use the Atari quality instead.

 

I dont give a crap how much GTIA features g2f doesnt supports yet, it wont get much better than that. sprite&cpu coloring <<< color memory to begin with. thats why it wont reach c64 quality. come on do a table mock up to proove me wrong.

[Oswald]

judging on the g2f gallery I'm pretty much doubt it would look like anything as a 256 color picture. I would be suprised if the tables as standalone pictures could be done in c64 quality.

 

Blablabla...

 

Graph2font really does not support all GTIA features. It also does not support correct cpu timing when using a graphics kernel.

And, you know what? Pictures never show the action during gameplay.

 

As I wrote before. It is no problem to move the "standalone pictures up and down with only some commands, leaving enough cpu time for game handling, flipper and ball movement. the only "worse" would be the ball's resolution.

 

And there is again a failure in your sentence "reach C64 quality". We don't need C64 quality, if coders decide to use the Atari quality instead.

 

I dont give a crap how much GTIA features g2f doesnt supports yet, it wont get much better than that. sprite&cpu coloring <<< color memory to begin with. thats why it wont reach c64 quality. come on do a table mock up to proove me wrong.

[Jetboot Jack]

I like many on THIS board don't want C64 quality - we want interesting things on our A8, so arguing that we can't have this or that is not a really supportable position - many people here are interested in trying...

 

Now I can accept the C64 has more sprites than the A8, and they are of higher resolution and certainly easier to use in general cases such as emulating similar hardware (like 80's arcade machines) is concerned - so for most videogame applications they are very powerful

 

But that does not mean the A8 hardware is not powerful, interesting or worthwhile exploring and wrangling to do all sorts of interesting things. So having 256 pixel tall, byte resolution, sprite hardware is an opportunity to exploit, and an interesting challenge to use creatively.

 

The fact that to do G2F pictures means lots of tricks are used to achieve the results - is rather irrelevant to the user/viewer, they appear to be colorful pictures, however achieved.

 

Let's not attack the methods if the result is good quality software or images - whatever the platform.

 

sTeVE

[Oswald]

"so arguing that we can't have this or that is not a really supportable position"

 

sure it is. what is not supportable is to try to turn down objective arguments based on how many ppl like a platform on a given forum. you dontt have 24*8 hires pixel wide hw sprites. this is a fact regardless of what you like.

 

"The fact that to do G2F pictures means lots of tricks are used to achieve the results - is rather irrelevant to the user/viewer, they appear to be colorful pictures, however achieved."

 

it becomes suddenly revelant, when emkay starts to blabble that 256 colors is possible in a pinball game. in case of g2f pix 20-30 is used in best cases, but usually less then 16. now start to think how would you move a software ball sprite with pm underlays and cpu color changes all over the place, how would you move all table, it becomes very complex and about impossible.

[TMR]

The fact that to do G2F pictures means lots of tricks are used to achieve the results - is rather irrelevant to the user/viewer, they appear to be colorful pictures, however achieved.

 

But that wasn't what Oswald was replying to, he was talking about emkay's claims regarding a potential port of Pinball Dreams using G2F images; apart from anything else, i'm not sure that what emkay said about how moving stand-alone pictures vertically just being a matter of a few commands applies to a G2F...

 

Let's not attack the methods if the result is good quality software or images - whatever the platform.

 

What about when the methods are theoretical (has anyone scrolled G2F images...?) and the other people have doubts as to if they hold water?

[Artlover]

from the coder himself. you may be playing an old version

I've tried the ones from

 

http://www.interstyles.nl/pinball/

 

and

 

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=32484

 

Both of which are the same.

 

Searching turns up no other versions.

 

So if there is a newer one, I don't think it's actually been released?

[Oswald]

from the coder himself. you may be playing an old version

I've tried the ones from

 

http://www.interstyles.nl/pinball/

 

and

 

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=32484

 

Both of which are the same.

 

Searching turns up no other versions.

 

So if there is a newer one, I don't think it's actually been released?

 

the csdb one has working bumpers and lights. check again. tho the lights are only wired in for the top "bonus multiplier" stuff.

[Crazyace]

Apple II June 77

Pet October 77

TRS80 (announced) August 77 - so probally later

Atari 800 (announced 78 ) - definitely later

 

"Announced and demonstrated in January of 1977 at the Consumer Electronics Show in Chicago, months before the Apple II or Radio Shack TRS80, the Commodore PET was the worlds first "real" computer"

 

apple II started to sell earlier than the pet tho, correct.

 

The PET 2001 was one of the first microcomputers I used at School - our Physics teacher bought it , as there was no 'computer studies' class - before that I'd been using an old PDP-8 via a TTY , and also a 300baud modem link to a shared PDP-11.

It's amazing how similar it is in concept to the IBM5100 which came out in 75 ( although as an IBM product it was way more expensive )

The Apple was on another level though - games and graphics on both the PET and the TRS80 really looked poor compared to the high res colour capabilities

 

That's really cool - I loved playing pinball dreams & fantasies on the Amiga. How difficult was it to reproduce it on the C64?

 

pretty hard. it would be easyer on todays beefed up a8s with the extra memory. the biggest problem was to squeeze it into 64k. the game has to realtime depack slope,collision, and masking tables (needed when the ball is under something). the math is at 24 bit precision. unused parts of the game bitmap holds data (turned invisible with the color attributes)

 

It's always impressive seeing things on old consoles - both the A8 and the C64

[Irgendwer]

...

What about when the methods are theoretical (has anyone scrolled G2F images...?)

...

 

There is a sample folder in the G2F package.

 

CU

Irgendwer

 

- still wondering what Oswald wants

- believe us, we are not (C64) worthy:

[Tezz]

I'm pretty sure, it is possible to have this fully in hires. Can someone give me a "hires" lineup of this pic?

MK, you can use the original gif that Wrathchild posted to work from if you want to work some stuff out with it in hi-res or better still work from a grab taken from the original via Mame. What would you propose to use for the players paddle sprites? are you planning that there will be enough pm's left. I'm interested to see what you'll do with it.

[Tezz]

It's no problem to scroll g2f pictures, as mentioned Tebe has included examples. The main thing to keep in mind scrolling g2f pictures (or backgrounds, map layouts) is to ensure that color2 and color3 are not directly next to each other in the screens char layout as scrolling cannot maintain the inverse flag inbetween the chars as color3 is derived from the inverse of color2. other than that it doesn't present a problem.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Tezz

[Jetboot Jack]

Therein lies the issue with your argument Oswald "what is not supportable is to try to turn down objective arguments based on how many ppl like a platform on a given forum. you don't have 24*8 hires pixel wide hw sprites. this is a fact regardless of what you like" Games are not just created because of what a platform will or will not allow TECHNICALLY, but by what experience the developer is seeking to create. The Spectrum has no hardware sprites (or scrolling) yet it manages to ATTEMPT versions of most games that appear on the C64 in the sprites and tiles days of the mid/late 80's. So lacking the C64's sprite hardware is not a problem, but a challenge...

 

TMR - "What about when the methods are theoretical (has anyone scrolled G2F images...?) and the other people have doubts as to if they hold water" - well let the claimers demonstrate or shut up I say, it's not about imagining how something might be done but showing it being done...

 

As someone who actually makes games, everyday since the late 80's, the technical issues are merely edges to be pushed against, that the power of a platform is only ever as realized as the latest game released for that system. If more people did and less talked about doing then the argument would be easily resolved. I find it laughable that people (on both sides and at length) argue semantics and debate tenuous technicalities without simply demonstrating - coding or illustrating - that which they hold forth to be so evident.

 

I stand to one side, I see no better machine, no more powerful device, no clean line that one side of the argument can posses to claim victory.

 

sTeVE

[Tezz]

If more people did and less talked about doing then the argument would be easily resolved.

Well said Steve, I 100% agree. I've said the same thing several times lately, if people put more emphasis into creating rather than discussing, we'd get a lot further. Actions speak louder than words. If half the amount of energy used arguing here was put into constructive work we'd have a lot of good stuff happening. The nice cross platform tools are all out there for free easier than ever to take advantage of. It's much more enjoyable these days with a wealth of resources around Edited December 3, 2008 by Tezz