TMR Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 All the other titles i listed are still an automatic win for the C64, despite games like Zybex or whatever having been argued in this thread and elsewhere, which proves my point about subjectivity; even at a technical level you'll never get a consensus, even from the programmers. As for if the technically more proficient game is the better to play... seriously, good luck with that one. =-) I don't even SEE any hardware comparison list. All you stated was it has higher resolution which doesn't necessarily mean it's better as pointed out before. Oh sorry, i assumed that since most of 'em have been done to death they were pretty much covered at that level as well. Still, if you want me to (assume i'm talking about the C64 version each time): Action Biker More colours in use, twice the resolution on the horizontal scrolling (which is a major plus on anything that needs this level of precision) and the soundtrack has far more to it. BMX Simulator More colours in use generally, along with twice the horizontal resolution on sprite movement which gives finer control. Draconus Twice the vertical resolution on most of the graphics and more colours in use generally (i wonder why the player sprite is only two colours on the A8, is that an issue with the crack i'm playing?) Dropzone Twice the horizontal scrolling resolution, again that better precision is a good thing to have. Kikstart The bike is rendered in high resolution sprites, there are more colours in the backgrounds and the scrolling has twice the resolution. (The C64 version is also a couple of years older than the A8 one in this particular case.) Last V8 (and Red Max) Double the horizontal scrolling resolution (again, desirable for a couple of games where relatively precise control is required), combined with high resolution sprites on the player's vehicle and a mixture of multicolour and high resolution characters for the backgrounds. One Man And His Droid Runs in a mixture of high resolution and multicolour characters so it has better overall graphical resolution, and the different Ramboids are "colour coded" as well, which makes things a little easier to play. Panther Twice the horizontal scrolling resolution (actually, i'd have to check it to be sure on this one, but if it isn't that's a programming issue and i can blame the American programmers and wind frenchman up! =-) and better sprites. Thrust Higher graphical resolution and that Rob Hubbard soundtrack in full, the A8 music is heavily butchered. Warhawk Twice the definition on sprites and more colours for each bar the player (speaking of which, i bet the coder would've loved to be able to select which rasterline his interrupts started on! [Evil grin =-]) plus the soundtrack has been shortened on the A8 for some reason. Zybex Higher vertical resolution, more colours in use and the horizontal scrolling is twice the resolution and refresh speed on the C64 at half a colour clock a frame at 50FPS rather than a colour clock every 25FPS. Did i miss any? Hello, the context is "The Pawn" screen shots Erm... no it wasn't; i was quoting from your post #8527 with "And also remember processor is also a hardware feature so if you use color ram and Atari uses DLIs avg. of every 8 scanlines, you are using similar processing power" which in turn is a reply to one of mine, post #8484, from before The Pawn had even been mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 now... what do you think of Beach Head II? it "looks" better than the c64 version... (not soundvise?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 What to say? The C64 has it's advantages. But, there never was a real reason to get one for those advantages. The most games on the A8 , from 79 to 86, did well enough. And then the 16 bits got more relevant. I never missed the C64, and even today I only have a look through emulations. If I had to play Turrican 1+2 one the C64, it never would have been this classic to me. "Dream games" like Test Drive were booooriiing on that machine ... Technically you see much better games on the C64 than on the A8, but on the AMIGA the enhancement has some "lightyears ahead" touch. If only people would have sticked with 3D game techniques for the A8 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 You could divide developers into two camps: those who developed for the best machine(s) and those who developed for the most popular machine(s). That's more black and white than the average penguin and a hideously large generalisation; as JBJ has said there were several reasons as to why programmers ended up on their specific platform that totally go against this theory. It's also rather subjective, i made the move to the C64 from my 800XL because i felt it was the better of the two machines for what i wanted as both a games player and a programmer. Made-up conversation at a large games company, 1985 Right, so this falls on it's arse straight away because we're talking about developers and not publishers but okay, i'll go with it... Boss A: "Have you seen Deluxe Paint on the Amiga?" Boss B: "Yeah, wow! The new Atari ST's a lot less expensive though." Boss A: "Yet more formats..." Boss B: "Well, the Apple and Atari versions never do as well as the C64's. Maybe we should concentrate on the newer machines." Very few sane businessmen would've been willing to swap an existing market that generated at least some cash for an almost totally untested one that at that particular point had no absolute guarantees of matching the lost revenue stream... Are you reading this on your C64? No, but that's a rather pointless thing to say on your part really since we're not a year or so after the companies moved away from the C64. And since i was one of the people who kept the machine going after the companies pulled out, that's one of the reasons i'm failing to see why people didn't step up from the A8 community to do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 What to say? The C64 has it's advantages. But, there never was a real reason to get one for those advantages. For you personally no, for me there was. If only people would have sticked with 3D game techniques for the A8 .... Thank goodness they didn't. Since we're doing subjective personal opinions, to my mind the "3D revolution" around the time Doom and the PlayStation came along killed off a significant amount of originality in mainstream games development and i for one am extremely happy as a game player that didn't happen any earlier than it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Thank goodness they didn't. Since we're doing subjective personal opinions, to my mind the "3D revolution" around the time Doom and the PlayStation came along killed off a significant amount of originality in mainstream games development and i for one am extremely happy as a game player that didn't happen any earlier than it did. Hm... you miss the originality of 3D games? Where is the originality of the 1000000th Salamander clone, called Metal Dust? And, well, if you see the quite small differences between them all, another one would see those differences in good 3D games.... even on the A8... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Thank goodness they didn't. Since we're doing subjective personal opinions, to my mind the "3D revolution" around the time Doom and the PlayStation came along killed off a significant amount of originality in mainstream games development and i for one am extremely happy as a game player that didn't happen any earlier than it did. Hm... you miss the originality of 3D games? Where is the originality of the 1000000th Salamander clone, called Metal Dust? i said that it killed off "a significant amount of originality", not that every title released before then was original and that's absolutely true as far as i'm concerned; when we had more genres of game, the chances of something originality, innovation or at the very least variety were much larger than they were when it was significantly boiled down by the "3D revolution". And i'm not talking about shoot 'em ups (although the entire genre was a casualty of what i'm talking about, including the subsection of that genre that were innovative) but the industry as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) Panther yeah it's ok on A8, but not great on C64 either, plays a bit ropey for my taste. As for the decline of quality of A8 software? Dunno, SSI, Infocom, Microprose, etc, they released excellent games on A8 until they suddenly stopped doing A8 softs. Sons of Liberty is an excellent final game for A8 from SSI. Infocoms Plundered Hearts again a great final game for A8. Origin's Ultima V, excellent last game from the RPG guys for A8. Pondering about MAX is a great USA produced game for the A8 in the very late 80s/early 90s. Can't complain. Edited September 20, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 And since i was one of the people who kept the machine going after the companies pulled out, that's one of the reasons i'm failing to see why people didn't step up from the A8 community to do the same thing. Two questions: who and how? I never felt there was a real Atari 8-bit community in the UK to begin with... -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 And since i was one of the people who kept the machine going after the companies pulled out, that's one of the reasons i'm failing to see why people didn't step up from the A8 community to do the same thing. Two questions: who and how? I never felt there was a real Atari 8-bit community in the UK to begin with... In order, the A8 users and by learning to program to write new games; i didn't specifically mean the UK in this particular case and was talking generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Panther yeah it's ok on A8, but not great on C64 either, plays a bit ropey for my taste. As for the decline of quality of A8 software? Dunno, SSI, Infocom, Microprose, etc, they released excellent games on A8 until they suddenly stopped doing A8 softs. Sons of Liberty is an excellent final game for A8 from SSI. Infocoms Plundered Hearts again a great final game for A8. Origin's Ultima V, excellent last game from the RPG guys for A8. Pondering about MAX is a great USA produced game for the A8 in the very late 80s/early 90s. Can't complain. I would just like to say that as i own originals for pretty much the entire microprose catalogue from 83-92, i actually looked up the atari releases by this company on atarimania. and saw that they stopped producing games with conflict in vietnam (which is decent dont get me wrong). however u quote this company like they were some kind of yardstick for sw whereas in actual fact NONE of the stuff which actually made them great ever saw the light of day on the a8. no gunship no pirates no airborne ranger no project stealth fighter the REALLY good stuff that made it to the a8 was basically Silent Service and Kennedy Approach and i hate to burst your bubble but silent service looks really shoddy compared to the 64 one. flame away Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 As for the decline of quality of A8 software? Dunno, SSI, Infocom, Microprose, etc, they released excellent games on A8 until they suddenly stopped doing A8 softs. Sons of Liberty is an excellent final game for A8 from SSI. Infocoms Plundered Hearts again a great final game for A8. Easy and risk-free ports with nothing technical involved so fine for the US market where the audience was supposedly more mature. If you wanted an arcade program, you had virtually nothing... How do you expect to attract people with "dry" text-based games? Origin's Ultima V, excellent last game from the RPG guys for A8. Ultima IV. Pondering about MAX is a great USA produced game for the A8 in the very late 80s/early 90s. That's one... and probably the ONLY ambitious project to come from the US in the nineties. Can't even think of another commercial game made in the US after that (apart from the lightweight ChildsPlay Software titles). -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STE'86 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 And since i was one of the people who kept the machine going after the companies pulled out, that's one of the reasons i'm failing to see why people didn't step up from the A8 community to do the same thing. Two questions: who and how? I never felt there was a real Atari 8-bit community in the UK to begin with... -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com hmm. well in 25 years the atari community the world over has hardly inundated the scene with classics has it? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchman Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) Panther yeah it's ok on A8, but not great on C64 either, plays a bit ropey for my taste. As for the decline of quality of A8 software? Dunno, SSI, Infocom, Microprose, etc, they released excellent games on A8 until they suddenly stopped doing A8 softs. Sons of Liberty is an excellent final game for A8 from SSI. Infocoms Plundered Hearts again a great final game for A8. Origin's Ultima V, excellent last game from the RPG guys for A8. Pondering about MAX is a great USA produced game for the A8 in the very late 80s/early 90s. Can't complain. I would just like to say that as i own originals for pretty much the entire microprose catalogue from 83-92, i actually looked up the atari releases by this company on atarimania. and saw that they stopped producing games with conflict in vietnam (which is decent dont get me wrong). however u quote this company like they were some kind of yardstick for sw whereas in actual fact NONE of the stuff which actually made them great ever saw the light of day on the a8. no gunship no pirates no airborne ranger no project stealth fighter the REALLY good stuff that made it to the a8 was basically Silent Service and Kennedy Approach and i hate to burst your bubble but silent service looks really shoddy compared to the 64 one. flame away Steve No bubble burst as I own the game on C128 but yes, Microprose should have continued on A8 a while longer than they did (and you are right, Vietnam is an excellent game). flame on Sherali Edited September 20, 2009 by frenchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 hmm. well in 25 years the atari community the world over has hardly inundated the scene with classics has it? Not really, you're right... Still, I'm sticking to my theory that there are numerous factors unrelated to the hardware itself that have caused the situation. -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 hmm. well in 25 years the atari community the world over has hardly inundated the scene with classics has it? Not really, you're right... Still, I'm sticking to my theory that there are numerous factors unrelated to the hardware itself that have caused the situation. Such as? (And i'm asking because i want to know what happened as well! =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIQ Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Made-up conversation at a large games company, 1985 Right, so this falls on it's arse straight away because we're talking about developers and not publishers but okay, i'll go with it... The publishers are the gatekeepers. Boss A: "Have you seen Deluxe Paint on the Amiga?" Boss B: "Yeah, wow! The new Atari ST's a lot less expensive though." Boss A: "Yet more formats..." Boss B: "Well, the Apple and Atari versions never do as well as the C64's. Maybe we should concentrate on the newer machines." Very few sane businessmen would've been willing to swap an existing market that generated at least some cash for an almost totally untested one that at that particular point had no absolute guarantees of matching the lost revenue stream... Are you reading this on your C64? No, but that's a rather pointless thing to say on your part really since we're not a year or so after the companies moved away from the C64. And since i was one of the people who kept the machine going after the companies pulled out, that's one of the reasons i'm failing to see why people didn't step up from the A8 community to do the same thing. In the late 80s many probably asked themselves, "Why develop for a machine which isn't modern or popular?" Activision.txt EA.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIQ Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Save then open in Notepad! OK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 ANTIQ - I fail to see what the quoted release lists prove or indicate... The cycle of format transitions has been a factor in the industry continually, and will continue. The C64's longevity due to the format's retail popularity is not in question - the A8's sudden demise likewise is not a mystery, it simply had too small an installed user base to keep demand for software high once NEW users had stopped entering the scene. The lack of new users in the period the C64 rose to dominance is clearly linked to the mis-step with the 1200XL in '83 failing to introduce a compelling new machine and re-invigorate marketplace and then the lackluster 800XL (new box same hardware) - both of which looked like steps down from the 800's comprehensive design. Just compare the VIC 20 and it's replacement the C64, being so radically different, users were compelled to move on to the more powerful hardware and the software houses exploited the growing market and the ball started to roll... Commodore face-planted a few years later with the C16/+4 failing to introduce BETTER specification - and in the 80's computing being a niche market was driven by specification largely. The C64 found itself in different world though - it's price tumbling so low that even when the new 16bit machines arrived it kept selling (the world was waiting for the PC to dominate and the ST/Amiga were really just placeholders until the inevitable happened) as it landed in many kid's bedrooms whilst the PC began to dominate the workplace, computers developed 2 faces whereas previously they had primarily been hobbyist... On all platforms new users keep demand high for new software, existing users purchasing patterns tend to decline over time and the attractiveness of new formats convert them into new users of a newer system... Those latter EA games were released (I seem to remember) after a well orchestrated petition by the then popular Atari Magazines (Antic or Analog, I forget which) - although in all likelihood given their minimal quality (Racing Destruction set for instance) they were produced to mop up the last few dollars from the dying A8 market... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Right, so this falls on it's arse straight away because we're talking about developers and not publishers but okay, i'll go with it... The publishers are the gatekeepers. No they're not, they don't even fully control what is published to mainstream audiences (some of that comes down to the distributors as well) and even if they did it's not the same thing as being in full control; there have always been options like self publishing or equivalents of shareware (since those channels predate the publishers), electronic distribution through bulletin boards or online services and the games cracking and demo scenes on each machine were essentially facets of a small, ad-hoc distribution network as well. The people who couldn't get a publisher, the ones who i'd hope were coding for the joy of coding and love for the machine rather than a pay cheque, or the ones who loved the machine enough to learn how to code to fill the void eventually left by the companies pulling away from their favourite machine, they're the people i'm looking for. Very few sane businessmen would've been willing to swap an existing market that generated at least some cash for an almost totally untested one that at that particular point had no absolute guarantees of matching the lost revenue stream... Activision.txt EA.txt You're wrong in those files about the overlap, we're not talking about titles existing on both machines but the years in which the company produced games simultaneously for them; you said, essentially that your fictional company stopped producing A8 games and started producing Amiga ones, i said that wasn't something a sane businessman would do and your two lists show an entire year for Activision and two years for EA which back me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 The C64's longevity due to the format's retail popularity is not in question - the A8's sudden demise likewise is not a mystery, it simply had too small an installed user base to keep demand for software high once NEW users had stopped entering the scene. We-ell, i'm finding the rather sudden drop something of a mystery and i was sort of there for some of that decline - i know why i didn't step in and begin coding games (no money for a disk drive being the main one) but i never assume my own situation to be the norm. =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 It's easy - ST and Amiga came along. Even before they sold well, everyone got on the bandwagon and naturally to devote resources to supporting another machine, you either hire more people or drop support for an older one. Despite the ST bringing attention to Atari, and maybe even earning some 8-bit sales, it probably also helped to bury the support base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Factors that led to the demise? 1. One of them would be the crash, which halted numerous projects on platforms with the name "Atari" stamped on them. Moreover, lots of companies went out of business - or took different directions - in the US because of this, including big names in the computer field which supported the Atari 8-bit (Sirius Software, Datasoft, Datamost, Synapse Software...). 2. Uncertainty about Atari's future, affecting discussions with distributors that wanted to carry Atari 8-bit hardware and software. 3. The wild, Tramielesque distribution methods of Atari products in the US. 4. The Atari 8-bit was less and less seen as something new worth checking out, mainly because people would consider the Lucasfilm games or Alternate Reality absolute peaks. 5. No real incentive to produce for the Atari 8-bit anymore or invest into anything else than tired re-releases, budget or easily portable software in the States. Also, arcade games more or less went out of fade past the mid-eighties in the US (even most titles of this genre were mostly more mature, simulation-based programs on the C64 in the country). A lot of the good stuff was from the "big ones" anyway so what do you do if they aren't around anymore? 6. Not enough resources or no real force (from magazines, Atari or user groups) to provide "something more" and keep the platform alive with quality creations. 7. A number of software companies and distributors were Commodore enthusiasts from the start and had a name. They knew that ex-PET or VIC-20 users would follow them if they switched to the Commodore 64. 8. Although sold as early as 1981, the Atari 8-bit computers remained way too exclusive and expensive for the average UK users. I won't even mention distribution, which was handled by Ingersoll, not Atari in the early days. 9. The imported software was also incredibly pricey compared to anything you could find on UK-made computers. No market was created, no software support either, contrary to the ZX81, Spectrum, VIC-20 or Commodore 64, which had a number of cheap titles added to its library very early on. 10. These houses accompanied the computers to success in the UK. This also led to true "emulation", a real scene and a stable, rising market. Creation at its peak because of money and recognition for both Commodore 64 and Spectrum users. Recognition: creating something that will blow up the competition is a TRUE reward and will set new standards, with a force driving you, something the Atari never had in the UK. 11. Meanwhile, the lonely Atari users had to struggle: no cool magazine, a feeble market share, spotty distribution, expensive items and nothing really organized to actually compete. Bummer. Sociologically, that's what your average Atari user looked like in the UK. I can probably find some more or go into more detail but you get the general picture -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 It's easy - ST and Amiga came along. If that was true it would have killed the C64 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 It's easy - ST and Amiga came along. If that was true it would have killed the C64 too. It is true. But the C64 had a bigger "fanbase" and muuuuuuuch games to spread at schools... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts