Atari v Commodore

[Oswald]

if he didnt know about the jumpers he wouldnt have known about the switches either. RTFM. and once unscrewing a drive to cut a trace to change drv nr, is not a huge problem. similar to setting master slave jumpers on ide drives. once you do it and forget about it.

Again: He had a 1541-I. No switches. Got that everyone??!?!

 

read it again. also no master/slave/cs switches on todays hdds either, and nobody gives a fuck. once you set it and forget it.

 

Holy shit! DOES EVERY DECISION COMMODORE MAKES HAVE TO BE TWISTED INTO BEING THE RIGHT DECISION????? That's my problem with these discussions. The people who will defend everything about their system. Guess what? Both companies f*$ked up numerous times.

 

thanks god you are mr objective, who can objectively decide that blowing up ics are less of a problem than no switches for device nr.

 

You had to be careful that stacked 1541's didn't overheat. They got hot. I've seen it happen.

 

obviously they werent designed to be stacked. just like not to be put into water. they had the PSU inside which delivered the heat.

[Oswald]

double post. deleted.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Oswald

[Oswald]

I don't know what you're implying. SIO devices are not supposed to be hot-swappable. If doing something you're not supposed to do damages the system, then that's neither a positive or a negative. Why don't I plug and unplug a bunch of 64 peripherals with the system running and see if I can break it?

 

"Holy shit! DOES EVERY DECISION ATARI MAKES HAVE TO BE TWISTED INTO BEING THE RIGHT DECISION????? That's my problem with these discussions. The people who will defend everything about their system. Guess what? Both companies f*$ked up numerous times."

 

or

 

"I dont know what you're implying. 1541 devices are not supposed to be stacked. If doing something you're not supposed to do damages the system, then that's neither a positive or a negative. "

[Crazyace]

It was a lot more interesting when you were talking about games and graphics - Disk drives seem to have bought out the worst fanboy tendancies

 

As an aside - I've bought an SIO2PC for the Atari 8 bit ( so that I can test things on a real machine ), is there anything similar ( and cheap ) for the C64 - I'm tempted to ebay one but it would only be for remote testing

[Oswald]

It was a lot more interesting when you were talking about games and graphics - Disk drives seem to have bought out the worst fanboy tendancies

 

As an aside - I've bought an SIO2PC for the Atari 8 bit ( so that I can test things on a real machine ), is there anything similar ( and cheap ) for the C64 - I'm tempted to ebay one but it would only be for remote testing

 

nope. emulating an 1541 needs a timing precision which can not be accomplished within a multitasking OS.. as you can upload code into the drice you need to emulate every cycle at 1mhz accuracy to get that work.

 

you can buy a cart emulating the 1541 and using mmc for storage, but thats not cheap. tho its the best as it can emulate cartridges aswell.

 

cheapest is to get an X1541 cable which connects 1541 and pc, and copy your stuff to disks.

[Artlover]

What were these "devices"? 1541's?

Two are, yes: 1541C and 1541-II. The third is a FD-2000 (A 1581 compatible drive).

First off, the 1541C did not come with drive # select switches from the factory. It litterly was nothing more then a slightly modified original 1541 drive in the same original style case with a different color to match the new C64C. The only technical differences was the additional of track-0 detection. The rub here was the rom change to use this broke 100% compatability. Oddly, on some drives the track-0 sensor was never installed and on some others was installed, but not connected. There was also an issue with it using bit space of the 2nd 8bit port of one of the via's breaking all parallel speed loaders as well.

 

Only the 1541-II, the completely redesigned 1541 with the more modern case (ala: 1571 style) came with drive # select switches from the factory. It was also not 100% 1541 compatable because of slight difference in it's DOS.

 

So, only the 1541-II, 1571, 1581 and some 3rd party drives came with drive # select switches. Why on earth it took CBM so long to figure out the need for them is beyond be and really was quite dumb on their part.

 

That said, to make a blanket statement based on a less common revisional product is very biased.

 

Most people have the old 1541 drive. Hell, I've got 6 of the f--kers. I've never personally known anyone with a 1541II (or 1541C for that matter.)

 

I did see them in stores back in the days, yet have never seen one in the wild when thrifing, just crap loads of original 1541's.

[Heaven/TQA]

It was a lot more interesting when you were talking about games and graphics - Disk drives seem to have bought out the worst fanboy tendancies

 

As an aside - I've bought an SIO2PC for the Atari 8 bit ( so that I can test things on a real machine ), is there anything similar ( and cheap ) for the C64 - I'm tempted to ebay one but it would only be for remote testing

 

nope. emulating an 1541 needs a timing precision which can not be accomplished within a multitasking OS.. as you can upload code into the drice you need to emulate every cycle at 1mhz accuracy to get that work.

 

you can buy a cart emulating the 1541 and using mmc for storage, but thats not cheap. tho its the best as it can emulate cartridges aswell.

 

cheapest is to get an X1541 cable which connects 1541 and pc, and copy your stuff to disks.

 

I am using a XE1541 cable and it works for me... but pain is that you need to format a disc with Star Commander and can not mount a D64 instead.

[Fröhn]

That's the 1541-II. The 1541-I has either dip switches or bridges on the board (you have to open the case).

 

Will someone set Fröhn straight?

 

He's showing me a 1541-II and telling me it's a I. Do you really not know what came first?

"That's the 1541-II" was referring to the picture I posted which was a 1541-II.

 

And then I explained you that the 1541-I has either bridged or dip switches inside.

[Fröhn]

but for the Agnus sprites, too?

 

ok...never touched my A1200 programming wise...

I never used the Amigas sprites, only blitter + bitplanes. And even on C64 I never used the collision register. Bounding boxes or spheres are far better for 2D collision detection.

[Bryan]

read it again. also no master/slave/cs switches on todays hdds either, and nobody gives a fuck. once you set it and forget it.

You need to take yourself out of 2008 and put yourself in 1983 where 64 owners aren't coders or hardware hackers. It was an oversight not to make adding drives as painless as possible.

 

thanks god you are mr objective, who can objectively decide that blowing up ics are less of a problem than no switches for device nr.

Your obsession with this point just shows how full of shit you are. You found some line in Wikipedia about how someone might damage their Atari by not following the rules, yet do you know if plugging and unplugging IO cables from a live 64 might damage it too? I bet it could.

 

You're the least objective person here. You're the one fanatical enough to spend your time in an Atari forum solely to evangelize about the 64 and protect it from all criticism.

obviously they werent designed to be stacked. just like not to be put into water. they had the PSU inside which delivered the heat.

Obviously. They were meant to take up a bunch of desk space.

 

I don't have much bad to say about the 64, but you won't get me to like what they did with the 1541.

[Bryan]

I don't know what you're implying. SIO devices are not supposed to be hot-swappable. If doing something you're not supposed to do damages the system, then that's neither a positive or a negative. Why don't I plug and unplug a bunch of 64 peripherals with the system running and see if I can break it?

 

"Holy shit! DOES EVERY DECISION ATARI MAKES HAVE TO BE TWISTED INTO BEING THE RIGHT DECISION????? That's my problem with these discussions. The people who will defend everything about their system. Guess what? Both companies f*$ked up numerous times."

 

or

 

"I dont know what you're implying. 1541 devices are not supposed to be stacked. If doing something you're not supposed to do damages the system, then that's neither a positive or a negative. "

Here's the difference: What does the competition offer?

 

Atari offered externally assignable drives. Commodore's 1541 didn't.

Atari drives (and everyone else's for that matter) could be stacked. Commodore's 1541 apparently couldn't.

 

Apparently, Atari drives could be damaged by plugging and unplugging IO cables with them on and if I recall, that was a pretty standard warning with all systems of the day (although I've swapped SIO cables live over the course of many years with no issues). Did Commodore make all their ports idiot and spike proof? I known of several people inadvertently frying one, but I couldn't tell you how they did it.

[FastRobPlus]

I don't have much bad to say about the 64, but you won't get me to like what they did with the 1541.

 

Yeah. I have always thought of the 1541 as a bit of a mistake. The no-name mail order brands all seemed quieter, ran 100% compatible and were cheaper and often smaller.

 

*edit* Just checked - no drive selection switches on the FSD-1. Still it's a really nice drive. Absolutely no UV discoloration of the white plastic front bezel. The void if removed sticker is still intact indicating nobody has ever had to adjust it.

[Bryan]

"That's the 1541-II" was referring to the picture I posted which was a 1541-II.

 

And then I explained you that the 1541-I has either bridged or dip switches inside.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Both of mine have the solder jumpers.

[Garak]

First off, the 1541C did not come with drive # select switches from the factory.

 

Yes, and I hadn't said any different. In fact a few posts later I said the 1541C doesn't have switches.

 

It litterly was nothing more then a slightly modified original 1541 drive in the same original style case with a different color to match the new C64C. The only technical differences was the additional of track-0 detection. The rub here was the rom change to use this broke 100% compatability. Oddly, on some drives the track-0 sensor was never installed and on some others was installed, but not connected. There was also an issue with it using bit space of the 2nd 8bit port of one of the via's breaking all parallel speed loaders as well.

 

Right.

 

Only the 1541-II, the completely redesigned 1541 with the more modern case (ala: 1571 style) came with drive # select switches from the factory. It was also not 100% 1541 compatable because of slight difference in it's DOS.

 

Right.

 

So, only the 1541-II, 1571, 1581 and some 3rd party drives came with drive # select switches. Why on earth it took CBM so long to figure out the need for them is beyond be and really was quite dumb on their part.

 

Right. I also said it was rather silly of Commodore to not add switches to the original 1541s.

 

That said, to make a blanket statement based on a less common revisional product is very biased.

 

To make a blanket statement about what? Do you even know what that means? If I said, "Yes, all Commodore people found setting up the 1541 (no matter what the version!) drives really easy." that would be a "blanket statement". However, I hadn't said that. I was talking about my experience with setting up drives. I never said my experience was the same for everyone.

 

Most people have the old 1541 drive. Hell, I've got 6 of the f--kers. I've never personally known anyone with a 1541II (or 1541C for that matter.)

 

Now you do. Want a prize?

 

I did see them in stores back in the days, yet have never seen one in the wild when thrifing, just crap loads of original 1541's.

 

Hmm, could be because more 1541's were manufactured over the C/II variants.

 

Garak

[Oswald]

You need to take yourself out of 2008 and put yourself in 1983 where 64 owners aren't coders or hardware hackers. It was an oversight not to make adding drives as painless as possible.

 

exactly the opposite. in 2008 all you need to know is to drag around the mouse and click and literally everyone has a pc. in 1983 you have to learn about the machine even for the most basic usage, and most ppl owning machines are also coding them. not having a switch for drive nr is a very minor issue, ppl were happy if they could buy one drive, and for 98% of them one was enough. then if they had more they could READ the manual, and get through a few min process to make it happen and then forget about it.

 

Your obsession with this point just shows how full of shit you are. You found some line in Wikipedia about how someone might damage their Atari by not following the rules, yet do you know if plugging and unplugging IO cables from a live 64 might damage it too? I bet it could.

 

says someone who cant get off a fucking missing device nr switch since like 4 pages. just as unimportant detail as the plugging issue which I only brought in as a counterbait to start with

 

I don't have much bad to say about the 64, but you won't get me to like what they did with the 1541.

 

what happened to the 1541 is the perfect example of Mr. Tramiel going berzerk well not only that they even managed to optimize the parallel lines of the board or smth like that. the device nr is nothing compared of making the loading smth like 10x slower coz of faulty cia chips... or no parallel loading. so have a go on those rather, i will even agree.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Oswald

[Oswald]

Here's the difference: What does the competition offer?

 

Atari offered externally assignable drives. Commodore's 1541 didn't.

Atari drives (and everyone else's for that matter) could be stacked. Commodore's 1541 apparently couldn't.

 

give me a break. speed or storage capacity was much more important than stacking or device nr changing with switches, I bet 95% of ppl had only one drive. I remember feeling like the luckiest person alive when I got lended a 2nd drive for a short time. furthermore when it comes to competition it was more important what the base machine could do imho. once you bought it you had not much choice.

[Bryan]

what happened to the 1541 is the perfect example of Mr. Tramiel going berzerk well not only that they even managed to optimize the parallel lines of the board or smth like that. the device nr is nothing compared of making the loading smth like 10x slower coz of faulty cia chips... or no parallel loading. so have a go on those rather, i will even agree.

 

Well then I will apologize for my tone. You can't make a valid argument without weighing the good and the bad.

 

Commodore screwed up their firmware, but Atari didn't make true double-density available until the XF-551 (waaay too late) so you had to use 3rd party drives. It seems there were a lot more brains in a 1541 even if they didn't use it right.

 

Atari's SIO communication is all bit-banged too, btw (from the peripheral side, Pokey has a USART for the other side).

[Garak]

Well then I will apologize for my tone.

 

I also have something to apologize for: to Artlover for my tone and sarcasm in my response post.

 

These debates get fun don't they?

 

Garak

[Bryan]

Here's the difference: What does the competition offer?

 

Atari offered externally assignable drives. Commodore's 1541 didn't.

Atari drives (and everyone else's for that matter) could be stacked. Commodore's 1541 apparently couldn't.

 

give me a break. speed or storage capacity was much more important than stacking or device nr changing with switches, I bet 95% of ppl had only one drive. I remember feeling like the luckiest person alive when I got lended a 2nd drive for a short time. furthermore when it comes to competition it was more important what the base machine could do imho. once you bought it you had not much choice.

You're right. These aren't major points, but they illustrate the little things that Atari thought about when designing the system. These aren't sight & sound issues, but rather the human engineering category where I give Atari the edge over the 64. They tried to make it friendly.

[Bryan]

Well then I will apologize for my tone.

 

I also have something to apologize for: to Artlover for my tone and sarcasm in my response post.

 

These debates get fun don't they?

 

Garak

I'll tell you what's funny, is that Commodore and Atari guys should be beating up on all the other guys who think their systems compare. Where's an unsuspecting Speccy or Apple forum?

 

edited for typo... crap, can't type tonight. Need to start drinking.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Bryan

[Garak]

I'll tell you what's funny, is that Commodore and Atari guys should be beating up on all the other guys who think their systems compare. Where's an unsuspecting Speccy or Apple forum?

 

I agree here. Why, with the C64 and A8 followers as one group there would be no stopping us in those other forums against those systems!

 

Need to start drinking.

 

Heh, you too eh?

 

Garak

[Alison DeMeyer]

school girl.

 

Garak

 

 

Well, thank you very much, you are very sweet.

[Bryan]

I agree here. Why, with the C64 and A8 followers as one group there would be no stopping us in those other forums against those systems!

I'll tell you something though, those Apple II guys are mean. You can throw all the specs you want at them and they'll just say, "it's just a game system."

 

Nothing gets their hearts racing like a well executed spreadsheet.

[TMR]

Ever try to connect two 1541's to the C64?

 

[Looks at two 1541s and a 1581 connected to his C64] Erm yeah, easy enough...?

How did you do it? Did you take two 1541's out of the box and flip a little switch in the back to make one of them drive 2 and then plug them in?

 

Well yes, although the switch is on the front in this case... it may not be as easy as having a dip switch on the back but since i've got eight 1541s and six arrived with similar switches, it can't exactly be hard to do.

[TMR]

I'll tell you what's funny, is that Commodore and Atari guys should be beating up on all the other guys who think their systems compare. Where's an unsuspecting Speccy or Apple forum?

 

Part of me thinks that's akin to shooting fish in a barrel... but another part of me knows that the Speccy guys will put one hell of a fight up!