TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I'm unsure of the actual challenge there thinking about it Do you mean we all do 7800 or 7800 Vs C64 but C64 can only have 4k and video ram? In which case don't we get a cart as well? I'd be fine with either, 7800 coding or C64 with cart and 4k. How about 7800 v 5200 v C64GS...? Now, where's me notes about Ocean cartridge bank switching? =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I'm unsure of the actual challenge there thinking about it Do you mean we all do 7800 or 7800 Vs C64 but C64 can only have 4k and video ram? In which case don't we get a cart as well? I'd be fine with either, 7800 coding or C64 with cart and 4k. The native 7800 game library is very small . How about everybody works out who is top dog on a system that really could do with some new games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I'm unsure of the actual challenge there thinking about it Do you mean we all do 7800 or 7800 Vs C64 but C64 can only have 4k and video ram? In which case don't we get a cart as well? I'd be fine with either, 7800 coding or C64 with cart and 4k. The native 7800 game library is very small . How about everybody works out who is top dog on a system that really could do with some new games? The 7800 has already crossed my mind (around the time Sirius turned up actually, i really liked that but i'm a fan of Kevin Franklin's stuff generally) but the notes i found left a little to be desired. i need an idiot's guide! =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 My moneys on option 'C' - 'just plain hiding' I'm a bit disappointed by the response from the A8 side, I was really hoping Atariksi, Emkay & Co. would demonstrate some enthusiasm for this, when it came to the money shot, and at least some desire to prove the A8 is the better all round machine.. If you want to bring the fight to the Atari 7800 I'm game. Obviously you Commodore people will have to lose all but 4K of RAM. I'll even let you keep the C64's video RAM . EDIT: Punctuation lol, I thought it was all about stock machines, so no bank-switching or Pokey for you then in that case And besides I'm dying for an excuse to get my hands dirty on the 7800 again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 My moneys on option 'C' - 'just plain hiding' I'm a bit disappointed by the response from the A8 side, I was really hoping Atariksi, Emkay & Co. would demonstrate some enthusiasm for this, when it came to the money shot, and at least some desire to prove the A8 is the better all round machine.. If you want to bring the fight to the Atari 7800 I'm game. Obviously you Commodore people will have to lose all but 4K of RAM. I'll even let let you keep the C64's video RAM . andym00 reckons he can do it regardless... this is meant to be a C64 v A8 thing, anyone else wants to play is more than welcome but the "rules" are going to be aligned around those two platforms. I'm just looking for an excuse for playing with he 7800 again.. My previous outing was rather abortive, and I'd like to have another pop at it, knowing better this time and actually finish something on it I'm just a total sucker for the way its graphics work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 How about 7800 v 5200 v C64GS...? Now, where's me notes about Ocean cartridge bank switching? =-) As long as its 4K RAM for everybody or you allow the 7800 to use an extra 8K/16K RAM and POKEY in a cart (12K/20K RAM total and decent sound for everybody) then its a fair fight in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 The 7800 has already crossed my mind (around the time Sirius turned up actually, i really liked that but i'm a fan of Kevin Franklin's stuff generally) but the notes i found left a little to be desired. i need an idiot's guide! =-) Funnily enough I was working on the same project as Kevin up until summer I had no idea the previous 18 months that he was the Kevin Franklin responsible for the the Tynesoft/Zeppelin A8 stuff, and especially the 7800 "it will look like a 64 damn it!" protos that surfaced It just never clicked it was him until it was too late to bring it all up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 If the 7800 is the platform of choice I'll gladly help anybody with technical questions on it and supply the graphics conversion tools to its native format (160A,160B,320A,320B modes all supported). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 As long as its 4K RAM for everybody or you allow the 7800 to use an extra 8K/16K RAM and POKEY in a cart (12K/20K RAM total and decent sound for everybody) then its a fair fight in my opinion. The 7800 with that much RAM is a terrifying beast You get the advantage of raw bitmaps and/or massives of graphics memory to work with + the power of Maria on top If it was to be the case, then you'd have to limit the ROM size otherwise this just becomes totally unworkable.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 From my perspective, the use of GTIA-specific graphics was a similar matter and i remember quite a fuss when we started seeing games actually using them; i could be wrong, but i seem to remember all the pack-in software that came with my 800XL (about ten tapes, red inlays) didn't even touch those modes? I'm sure the modes were initially ignored for compatibility reasons but I also think the odd resolution was a barrier and people weren't sure what to do with them other than make little color demos. Apparently, the upgrade was about $60 at an Atari service center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 How about 7800 v 5200 v C64GS...? Now, where's me notes about Ocean cartridge bank switching? =-) As long as its 4K RAM for everybody or you allow the 7800 to use an extra 8K/16K RAM and POKEY in a cart (12K/20K RAM total and decent sound for everybody) then its a fair fight in my opinion. POKEY in a cart is a little cheaty perhaps... the machine already has sound, so adding more sound seems unfair if nothing else is allowed to. But i said previously i thought the maximum RAM should be capped at 64K, so if some of that is in the cartridge i personally don't have an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 From my perspective, the use of GTIA-specific graphics was a similar matter and i remember quite a fuss when we started seeing games actually using them; i could be wrong, but i seem to remember all the pack-in software that came with my 800XL (about ten tapes, red inlays) didn't even touch those modes? I'm sure the modes were initially ignored for compatibility reasons but I also think the odd resolution was a barrier and people weren't sure what to do with them other than make little color demos. It just really puzzled me that i had an 800XL but the games that came bundled with it didn't show off those extra graphical features... even one game, just something thrown together over a couple of weeks and it wouldn't need to be much of a game to be honest, would've shown things off at least a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Clean quantized frames need only 18 updates per second to have the eyes recognizing a full fluent movement. So you will only see a difference between 50Hz and 25Hz , if the quantization has jitters. Jitters are not possible on the A8, if using vertical sync. That's wrong. You don't need to introduce 'jitters' into the scenario to see a difference between 50hz and 25hz. If you showed me a sprite moving across the screen in 8px steps, synced to the refresh rate but only updating every second frame (ie: 25hz), and also showed me the same sprite moving across the screen in 4px steps at 50hz, I would easily be able to tell you which was which. If it was a case of 2px steps @ 25fps vs 1px steps at 50fps, it would be more difficult to distinguish between the two, but I probably could still pick it. I'm fussy that way. I agree. The difference in fluidity between 50/60 and 25/30 is quite perceptible in simple 2-D games. It would be a simple thing to demonstrate with a couple moving blocks on the screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 POKEY in a cart is a little cheaty perhaps... the machine already has sound, so adding more sound seems unfair if nothing else is allowed to. But i said previously i thought the maximum RAM should be capped at 64K, so if some of that is in the cartridge i personally don't have an issue? There were never any bank switched RAM carts for the 7800 in its day so 20K RAM is the maximum. I think it should be allowed POKEY to be on a level playing field with the 5200 POKEY and SID in the GS for sound. POKEY and 16K RAM carts didn't exist back in the day either. So its 8K RAM and POKEY sound or 16K RAM and TIA sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 As long as its 4K RAM for everybody or you allow the 7800 to use an extra 8K/16K RAM and POKEY in a cart (12K/20K RAM total and decent sound for everybody) then its a fair fight in my opinion. The 7800 with that much RAM is a terrifying beast You get the advantage of raw bitmaps and/or massives of graphics memory to work with + the power of Maria on top If it was to be the case, then you'd have to limit the ROM size otherwise this just becomes totally unworkable.. Ah, never thought of that... (well, wasn't thinking of that anyway to be honest =-) so... what's a fair size d'you reckon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 As long as its 4K RAM for everybody or you allow the 7800 to use an extra 8K/16K RAM and POKEY in a cart (12K/20K RAM total and decent sound for everybody) then its a fair fight in my opinion. The 7800 with that much RAM is a terrifying beast You get the advantage of raw bitmaps and/or massives of graphics memory to work with + the power of Maria on top If it was to be the case, then you'd have to limit the ROM size otherwise this just becomes totally unworkable.. Ah, never thought of that... (well, wasn't thinking of that anyway to be honest =-) so... what's a fair size d'you reckon? 128K or 144K were the common sizes for the 7800's larger games. So I'd say 128K would be the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Ah, never thought of that... (well, wasn't thinking of that anyway to be honest =-) so... what's a fair size d'you reckon? I don't know, if it's 4K it's not really fair I suppose, I mean, I can see why you'd want more, but then there's all that ROM space as well.. But what's the whole idea ? Is it stock machines or not ? If the 7800 gets a leg-up by having additional RAM and a better sound chip where does it end ? You'll reach the end, unveilings happen and then it'll be non-stop bleating about it being unfair because of this and that.. At least if it's 100% stock the objective is achieved beyond question.. If it's not stock then I'm not entirely sure what will have been achieved at the end of the day.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 128K or 144K were the common sizes for the 7800's larger games. So I'd say 128K would be the limit. So that'd be 128K and the RAM... that's over twice the size of what the other two would be getting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 128K or 144K were the common sizes for the 7800's larger games. So I'd say 128K would be the limit. But then were do you call a limit for the other 2 platforms ? Are you proposing that every platform goes for 128K ? But that's implying an awfully big game, or throwing large amount of code at small problems for speed purposes, in the context of what i imagine the games we're talking about will be ? I've only just wrapped my head around the idea that it's not going to be a 'big' game whatever it is, as pointed out it'll never get finished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I don't know, if it's 4K it's not really fair I suppose, I mean, I can see why you'd want more, but then there's all that ROM space as well.. But what's the whole idea ? Is it stock machines or not ? If the 7800 gets a leg-up by having additional RAM and a better sound chip where does it end ? You'll reach the end, unveilings happen and then it'll be non-stop bleating about it being unfair because of this and that.. At least if it's 100% stock the objective is achieved beyond question.. If it's not stock then I'm not entirely sure what will have been achieved at the end of the day.. So we have it in the rules at the start, each machine is specified before a line of code is written. i still think the max of 64K is a workable one for the C64 and A8 (i'd rather aim for a C64 than a C64GS, i'm sure the A8 camp would rather work to something like a 65XE than the 5200) so if we said that as a limit for the 7800 but leave it to the devs how they want to distribute that between the internal RAM and the cartridge RAM and ROM, would it be fair still d'you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 If you want to keep the contest simple so it actually gets finished then there are some other potential candidates. Does the Atari 8 bit or C64 already have a port of Bejeweled or Hexic? Bejeweled has been done on a few 8 bits so it's not over reaching. Some of the logic could be shared between machines too. Since neither is super cpu intensive for game logic, it gives you room to play with music, sound effects, colors, etc... and both are pretty addictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 So we have it in the rules at the start, each machine is specified before a line of code is written. i still think the max of 64K is a workable one for the C64 and A8 (i'd rather aim for a C64 than a C64GS, i'm sure the A8 camp would rather work to something like a 65XE than the 5200) so if we said that as a limit for the 7800 but leave it to the devs how they want to distribute that between the internal RAM and the cartridge RAM and ROM, would it be fair still d'you think? Specified and agreed upon before hand is absolutely essential I think.. I'd like to believe they'd prefer the computers over the 5200, after all it's only got 16K of RAM, and RAM is one of the things the A8 really really needs from my explorations into it so far, from a games point of view anyway and getting stuff on screen fast, but if they want 5200 I don't see any reason why not.. And from the C64 point of view it makes no difference.. The GS is a C64, unless you really want to take advantage of the bank-switching.. But I think leaving it up to the 7800 camp to decide how the 64K is split is probably the fairest way to proceed, unless anything absolutely ludicrous surfaces The more I think about this, the harder it becomes now the 7800 is in the thick of it, it's all complicated now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 If you want to keep the contest simple so it actually gets finished then there are some other potential candidates. Does the Atari 8 bit or C64 already have a port of Bejeweled or Hexic? Bejeweled has been done on a few 8 bits so it's not over reaching. There are no totally direct ports, but variations on the match three game design exist on both machines. Hexic i don't recognist the name of? Since neither is super cpu intensive for game logic, it gives you room to play with music, sound effects, colors, etc... and both are pretty addictive. That's certainly worth considering... although we'd have to pick a specific source game i think...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 But I think leaving it up to the 7800 camp to decide how the 64K is split is probably the fairest way to proceed, unless anything absolutely ludicrous surfaces I agree that 64K is the limit for the 7800 split between ROM and RAM at the developers requirements. To make it fair the C64 and A8 must only load the whole game once e.g. no multi-loads because the 7800 can't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Personally, I still think the common platform for battle should be the 7800. It really needs the support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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