TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 But I think leaving it up to the 7800 camp to decide how the 64K is split is probably the fairest way to proceed, unless anything absolutely ludicrous surfaces I agree that 64K is the limit for the 7800 split between ROM and RAM at the developers requirements. To make it fair the C64 and A8 must only load the whole game once e.g. no multi-loads because the 7800 can't do it. Bugger... never thought of that, can the A8 actually get to a full 64K? i've only ever aimed at 48K personally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 But I think leaving it up to the 7800 camp to decide how the 64K is split is probably the fairest way to proceed, unless anything absolutely ludicrous surfaces I agree that 64K is the limit for the 7800 split between ROM and RAM at the developers requirements. To make it fair the C64 and A8 must only load the whole game once e.g. no multi-loads because the 7800 can't do it. Bugger... never thought of that, can the A8 actually get to a full 64K? i've only ever aimed at 48K personally! Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. 62k on XL, 48k on 400/800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. 62k on XL, 48k on 400/800 Okay, so we need to say something like the C64 coders can't touch the top 3K of memory then... that leaves 61K and the colour RAM shadowed in to make 62K in total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Personally, I still think the common platform for battle should be the 7800. It really needs the support. Yeah but there's no numpties in this thread shouting about how much better it is than C64 I'm always keeping Exploding Fist in mind for 7800 as I'm going, I've not really thought about it much on my other "projects" but one of them at least should be fairly doable. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. 62k on XL, 48k on 400/800 Okay, so we need to say something like the C64 coders can't touch the top 3K of memory then... that leaves 61K and the colour RAM shadowed in to make 62K in total. Nah, colour ram is part of the video hardware imho and should be left out of the ram equation. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) But I think leaving it up to the 7800 camp to decide how the 64K is split is probably the fairest way to proceed, unless anything absolutely ludicrous surfaces I agree that 64K is the limit for the 7800 split between ROM and RAM at the developers requirements. To make it fair the C64 and A8 must only load the whole game once e.g. no multi-loads because the 7800 can't do it. Bugger... never thought of that, can the A8 actually get to a full 64K? i've only ever aimed at 48K personally! Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. Pete It's the 2K of I/O space you can't bank out $D000-$D800.. And I guess the 64s in trouble with the rulebook by virtue of having 64.5K to start with edit: weird, those other posts weren't there when I replied Edited October 18, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. 62k on XL, 48k on 400/800 Okay, so we need to say something like the C64 coders can't touch the top 3K of memory then... that leaves 61K and the colour RAM shadowed in to make 62K in total. Colour RAM is only 0.5K. It's 4bit memory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 And I guess the 64s in trouble with the rulebook by virtue of having 64.5K to start with [scratches head] Well, the Atarians have said it's not much use so i'm sure they won't mind it being there... i mean, my last game GR9 Strike Force finished before the VIC-II, i had everything banked out but only needed to get under BASIC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 edit: weird, those other posts weren't there when I replied hehe blighters getting in while you're still typing, there should be a popup on the forum software for replies posted while you're editing. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Personally, I still think the common platform for battle should be the 7800. It really needs the support. It does need more support for sure, but the whole original point of this was to find out in an amicable fashion after 400+ pages how much crap has been spoken by each side, and to at last bake a cake according to both sides recipes, and see which tastes best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 mmmm cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) Not quite What is it 60? 62k? Can't remember how big the bit you can't bank out is off the top of my head. 62k on XL, 48k on 400/800 Okay, so we need to say something like the C64 coders can't touch the top 3K of memory then... that leaves 61K and the colour RAM shadowed in to make 62K in total. Why exactly can't they use it? I realize you are thinking fairness here but it was a standard part of ALL C64s. If it's a limitation of one machine should it really become the limitation of another? I think drawing the line as far as 64K machines is legit, but beyond that I think you are defeating part of the purpose of the competition. If you are going to do that then you get into things like "you can only use x number of voices for music or sound", or limit it to x number of colors. Different machines have different advantages and you have to let people take advantage of them. Part of the reason I suggested Bejeweled and Hexic in particular is because the first should be easier for some of the 8 bit machines to do and the latter could be a real challenge to get that many colors since it doesn't use perfect rows and columns. <edit> BTW, I've seen Hexic done in B&W, it doesn't HAVE to be as colorful as the XBOX 360 version. I think the first version I played was for the Amiga. Edited October 18, 2009 by JamesD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 aehm... my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines... so... 800 xl, pal, 64k machine, single load, single pokey vs stock c64... ATR on A8, load "*",8,1 on commie. otherwise we run into a 16k compo thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) And I guess the 64s in trouble with the rulebook by virtue of having 64.5K to start with [scratches head] Well, the Atarians have said it's not much use so i'm sure they won't mind it being there... i mean, my last game GR9 Strike Force finished before the VIC-II, i had everything banked out but only needed to get under BASIC! True, they did say that.. But I think it's all getting a bit to stringent with this.. A stock machine is a stock machine, we can all agree what that is fairly sanely.. If we're going to start limiting things to meet the short-comings of the other platform then it's going to end up silly.. Surely the A8s having only 62K of addressable RAM is one if it's 'features', just like its players, it's GTIA etc.. That's just one of the many things that this whole debate has been about, and strikes me as odd to suddenly have to make allowance for one machines short-comings..It's only got so pedantic because GroovyBee arrived over hilltop blowing his TIA powered bugle and waving his 24 colour 7800 flag Otherwise I think it would have been simple specification for the challenge, and the need to specify something thats 'standard' for the 7800 has perhaps put the other 2 more under the microscope than they need be, possibly losing sight of what the point was.. Edited October 18, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Okay, so we need to say something like the C64 coders can't touch the top 3K of memory then... that leaves 61K and the colour RAM shadowed in to make 62K in total. Why exactly can't they use it? I realize you are thinking fairness here but it was a standard part of ALL C64s. If it's a limitation of one machine should it really become the limitation of another? Well, it's a case of can't we use it since i'm pretty much in the C64 camp for this one... i'm trying to keep things fair but you're probably right, i'm taking it a little too far there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines... Absolutely.. load "*",8,1 on commie. So... Disk drives allowed.. 2nd processor then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Why exactly can't they use it? I realize you are thinking fairness here but it was a standard part of ALL C64s. I was thinking the same thing. Let's make it really fair: The Atari version can only use 3 sound voices. The Commodore version can only use 5 sprites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 It's only got so pedantic because GroovyBee arrived over hilltop blowing his TIA powered bugle and waving his 24 colour 7800 flag Yeah, it's all your fault GroovyBee!! =-) Otherwise I think it would have been simple specification for the challenge, and the need to specify something thats 'standard' for the 7800 has perhaps put the other 2 more under the microscope than they need be, possibly losing sight of what the point was.. Right, stock 64K machine it is unless the A8 crowd feel they need the expanded RAM in which case all bets go right out the window. Deal? =-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Why exactly can't they use it? I realize you are thinking fairness here but it was a standard part of ALL C64s. I was thinking the same thing. Let's make it really fair: The Atari version can only use 3 sound voices. The Commodore version can only use 5 sprites. And no WSYNCs for the A8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Yeah, it's all your fault GroovyBee!! =-) My moneys on the 7800 wiping the completely floor with both the C64 and A8 Right, stock 64K machine it is unless the A8 crowd feel they need the expanded RAM in which case all bets go right out the window. Deal? =-) Yup, that's good for me.. I guess it just needs the A8 crowd to surface since they really have gone quiet now, and I'm wondering if we've in fact jumped the gun a bit here, and I'm not entirely sure who's up for this anymore.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atarigmr Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I am for Stock c64 vs stock 800XL as this is all this huge thread is about (or is it?!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I am for Stock c64 vs stock 800XL as this is all this huge thread is about (or is it?!). Agreed. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 my rules would be stock machines vs stock machines... Absolutely.. load "*",8,1 on commie. So... Disk drives allowed.. 2nd processor then stock machine... not machines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) I guess it just needs the A8 crowd to surface since they really have gone quiet now, and I'm wondering if we've in fact jumped the gun a bit here, and I'm not entirely sure who's up for this anymore.. Well so far there's you, Heaven, Pete, me and maybe GroovyBee by the look of things...? That's not a bad start actually, but we should probably keep generally pontificating for a couple of days to see who else wants to step up, after all some of us are in different time zones. (And yeah, the 7800 stands a good chance of winning hands down... but that's not the initial point of the exercise, it'll still give us a nice bit of C64/A8 comparison. =-) Edited October 18, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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