Atari v Commodore

[atariksi]

...

I also wonder why Oswald is still allowed doing insulting A8 friends and bashing the A8 without any consequences.

 

It's one of the factors why I wanted to remove all entrys I ever made in this forums and to leave this all....

...

 

I wouldn't let others' exaggerations/opinions distract me from the truth or from what I like doing.

[Oswald]

I wonder how to find a conclusion. Either both Computers, the A8 and the C64 are no "complete" ones.

 

another of those emkayish arguments. what is a complete computer ?! I bet I've yet to see one. it would emulate the universe realtime or smth.

 

 

 

 

 

So I still cannot understand people saying " the C64 is the better computer.

 

because it can do 16 roughly freely colored Last Ninja with 3 hires sprites. 45 rainbow colored Last Ninja is ugly

 

"Millions of Flys cannot be wrong, dung tastes..."

 

sure they arent. millions of atari stuff was sold

 

It's only the size of C64 community that brought approximated well stuff to that machine...

 

and those evil forces alone can prevent a8 making better 2d games

[ApolloBoy]

This is getting ridiculous.

[Oswald]

so... nothing like numen on the c64?

 

hows about

 

vs

 

 

you are comparing a 20 years old game which had deadlines to met and was done purely for money, with a game done these days with modern tools, enthusiasts with unlimited time to polish, and a machine using more than 64k. I bet the c64 could do better with a REU (ram expansion unit) with todays knowledge, and it wouldnt need interlace to add colors.

 

regarding numen: that textureless duke nukem like stuff is out of the reach on the c64. the speed is barely acceptable on a8 already, and on the 64 it would be even slower. the other effects were all done on the c64 during the 90s.

 

and as far as koronis, have you seen the c64 version and the a8bit version? Yes, I know it exists for both systems, I own it for both systems. And the a8bit version doesn't just have much more colorful 2d screens, it moves and plays faster and smoother in the 3d sections.

 

yes its better. and do you know turrican, creatures, mayhem, last ninja, defender, winter games, armalyte, california games, pirates, maniac mansion, zak mcracken, skate or die, grand prix circuit, newcomer, katakis, midnight resistance, rick dangerous, stunt car, myth, power drift, salamander, IO ?

[Oswald]

These arguments are meaningless. Is chess "better" than badminton? Is Coke "better" than Pepsi?

 

they aren't. are atari or c64 sprites more usable? whats better a multicolor charset with 128 chars or one with 256 colors and onscreen one individual color and hires/multi option per char ? is atari cpu faster or c64 ? which machine has more colors? which can display them more freely? cheers

[Oswald]

I also wonder why Oswald is still allowed doing insulting A8 friends and bashing the A8 without any consequences.

I have not paid very close attention to his posts and nobody has complained about him. Please feel free to point out any specific posts that have been abusive. But don't do that in this thread, either use the Report button or send me a PM.

Here's the thing. If Oswald is defending the 64 in a topic called "Atari v Commodore" then I don't think there's much reason to boot him. If only Atari owners debated then I think we would have concluded that the 64 causes genital warts by now.

 

If he jumps into legitimate Atari discussions with bashing, that's another thing.

 

-Bry

I dunno, the bad language has to go Not to mention it's an Atari site, do any of us go to Lemon64 and start arguments?

 

I remember some examples. and for the record: it wasnt me starting it.

[Oswald]

2x2 pixel 24bit color display, 16k of ram, 1ghz cpu, 8 mono fixed frequency tone generators

-vs.-

80x60 pixel monochrome display, 512k of ram, 33mhz cpu, 2 stereo synths

 

Based just on the numbers - Which system sucks and which system rocks?

 

Raw numbers are completely meaningless and only subjectively matter to people who care about that particular aspect in liue of the bigger picture.

 

clearly the 2nd one is better. 2x2 pixel and 16k ram is not enough for anything even if the cpu is fast.

what I find meaningless is how people are joining discussions finding meaningless, telling everyone its meaningless. its meaningless

[ApolloBoy]

These arguments are meaningless. Is chess "better" than badminton? Is Coke "better" than Pepsi?

 

they aren't. are atari or c64 sprites more usable? whats better a multicolor charset with 128 chars or one with 256 colors and onscreen one individual color and hires/multi option per char ? is atari cpu faster or c64 ? which machine has more colors? which can display them more freely? cheers

 

I think the main beef of deathtrap's argument is that we're arguing over 26+year old computers, both of which are great and have huge libraries and support. Why would you still harbor a prejudice against one or the other in 2008? It doesn't make any logical sense.

[Heaven/TQA]

13 - BLACK LAMP

 

Atari screenshots

 

Well, this time is a later 80 game (1989). Different versions according the capabilities of the machines. C64 use many colors, the final screen is something as a cartoon mode, in the other side Atari use variations of the same color, give a result of medieval aspect. Both, have good music and are different pieces. I'd prefer the Atari version.

 

C64 screenshots

 

I prefer the C64 verson as on my TV set, neverless the A8 verson is done techicly better than other games, it is hard for me from looking at the screen as the backgrounds are so "fulll".

[Heaven/TQA]

i don't accept your definition no because the Atari itself is quite clearly telling me that i've got two sprites and they can optionally work in tandem when the multicolour mode is enabled; i looked at a few books on Atari Archives just to confirm my memory, none of the ones i checked said that enabling multicolour gets you two multicolour sprites rather than four working in pairs either.

 

I'm trying to figure out why this is even a big deal to atariksi without re-reading the last 40+ pages. If you call them separate sprites, then it's a nifty feature that they can work together. If you call them a single sprite then congrats! You've just reduced the system to fewer available sprites. Doesn't matter what you call it- what you can do with it remains the same.

 

I was arguing that Atari multicolor sprites are better implementation than C64 multicolor sprites. Yes, I did agree that this would reduce number of sprites. After TMR loses the argument, he tries to change the premises like he did with his sprite Y position argument. Two multicolor Atari sprites give you 6 colors + black + any priority conflict colors. Two C64 multicolor sprites gives 4 colors. End of argument. Now he's arguing that I should use Atari monochrome sprite and compare with C64 multicolor sprite (i.e., compare apples w/oranges) since Atari came to him (in the middle of the night) and told him that they are two sprites not one multicolor sprite (after arguing for a while it's semantics). I gave him the example of Amiga bitplanes and Amiga sprite merging but I guess he did not read it or did not understand it. The definition of multiple player color is here:

 

http://www.atariarchives.org/c1bag/page192.php

 

And it agrees with reality and with Commodore's Amiga Hardware Reference Manual. I don't see the point in wasting my time arguing over apples and oranges. According to his warped logic, Atari ST 640*200*4 mode is superior to Amiga's 640*200*4 mode since Amiga is using TWO bitplanes. Of course, what can you expect from someone who initially was arguing that the Atari's palette being superior to C64's is a subjective thing. I get the drift that he just keeps repeating the samething regardless of what is reality until someone accepts him. Then you got a couple of people who did not understand the argument jump into it and try to refute me without taking the facts into account.

 

His mentality is pretty clear to me. If I gave the question that one 18-wheeler shop-rite truck and one BMW get on the George Washington Bridge at the same time going at 70mph and let go of the gas peddle at the same time, who will get across the bridge faster? So after the issue is done and over with, he'll claim Shop-rite does not have 18-wheelers! They are just a trailer and a front vehicle! Of course, he's not as bad as the other two people who are trying to find fault without even knowing what the argument is!

 

ehm, no? I was telling the same? I was complaining about the Y-pos thing, too? I was telling, yes... they are (from hardware point of view) still 2 sprites? and if you compare "2" virtual multicolour sprites to 2 c64 ones you are still using ALL 4 hardware sprites on atari side??? maybe I am wrong here but I am on Jason's side... I guess he nothing more wanted to say...

 

and yes... you can talk to me, too...

[emkay]

I wonder how to find a conclusion. Either both Computers, the A8 and the C64 are no "complete" ones.

 

another of those emkayish arguments. what is a complete computer ?! I bet I've yet to see one. it would emulate the universe realtime or smth.

 

 

I have statet this before: The Atari had some "construction restrictions" from the beginning, because they didn't care about important stuff by simply not knowing it. Particular the intentional reducing of the colours in hires was done, because they thought a TV cannot display colours in hires. But this was belonging only to NTSC.

 

The C64 was done for moneysaving causes. It's like buying a cheaper car without a steering helper in a time when every other car had it already.

 

and those evil forces alone can prevent a8 making better 2d games

 

I'd always prefer this:

 

 

 

over this:

 

 

 

It's more interesting that such a huge userbase is not able to create fast playable 3D on the C64.

Edited December 6, 2008 by emkay

[Oswald]

Honestly, C64 is nothing without his sprites. I can't remember any good C64 game without sprites.

 

I can. boulder dash fex. but why does it come from the a8?

 

 

About the yearly production of C64, it will be good to know how much SOFTWARE (no including images, music, demos) from 2007 or 2008 had been released for the C64. Is dying the C64?

 

9 game preview

20 games

23 utilities

39 non c64 based utility

 

how much on the a8 ?

[Heaven/TQA]

so... nothing like numen on the c64?

 

you are comparing a 20 years old game which had deadlines to met and was done purely for money, with a game done these days with modern tools, enthusiasts with unlimited time to polish, and a machine using more than 64k. I bet the c64 could do better with a REU (ram expansion unit) with todays knowledge, and it wouldnt need interlace to add colors.

 

regarding numen: that textureless duke nukem like stuff is out of the reach on the c64. the speed is barely acceptable on a8 already, and on the 64 it would be even slower. the other effects were all done on the c64 during the 90s.

 

Correct me (I can send you the complete Numen source files for you too look at... it's public domain... ) but please show me on c64:

 

- TIP Plasma in fullscreen in 256 colours?

- HIP Bump mapper in 152x192x30 shades?

- Transparence fx

etc?

 

http://numen.scene.pl/tech.html and sources are here http://numen.scene.pl/download.html

 

It would be interesting as I am sure I missed c64 demos a lot...

[Oswald]

These arguments are meaningless. Is chess "better" than badminton? Is Coke "better" than Pepsi?

 

they aren't. are atari or c64 sprites more usable? whats better a multicolor charset with 128 chars or one with 256 colors and onscreen one individual color and hires/multi option per char ? is atari cpu faster or c64 ? which machine has more colors? which can display them more freely? cheers

 

I think the main beef of deathtrap's argument is that we're arguing over 26+year old computers, both of which are great and have huge libraries and support. Why would you still harbor a prejudice against one or the other in 2008? It doesn't make any logical sense.

 

I am arguing about objective numbers and scenarios. not about pejudices. just like tmr does. what doesnt make sense is people joining an argument for the sole purpose of stopping it by trying to proove it doesnt make sense. what does it matter to you about what ppl argue living hundreds of kms away from you? cant you leave them doing what they like ?

[Oswald]

Correct me (I can send you the complete Numen source files for you too look at... it's public domain... ) but please show me on c64:

 

- TIP Plasma in fullscreen in 256 colours?

- HIP Bump mapper in 152x192x30 shades?

- Transparence fx

 

obviously the c64 can not do effects in a8 modes. if a8 didnt made an effect in a c64 mode then it wasnt done?

[Heaven/TQA]

Seven Cities of Gold...

Edited December 6, 2008 by Heaven/TQA

[Jetboot Jack]

Oswald,

 

You said "I am arguing about objective numbers and scenarios.not about pejudices."

 

But you are not, you combine subjective and the interpretation of electronic specification into artistic expressions - illustrations and games.

 

You use examples of games and images - where the ability of the implementers is ALWAYS MORE important than the technology upon which it is based - Boulderdash is a world class great game - which aside from the smooth scrolling ignores the hardware of either machine!

 

Those frankly excellent C64 pictures are examples of good draftsmanship not the C64's power, despite the limited pallet (I wonder what they would look like freed of a reliance on blue grey and brown tones?).

 

You said "what does it matter to you about what ppl argue living hundreds of kms away from you?" - nought, except you and everyone else is making it a global discussion by debating on this web based forum. If you don't like the discussion, or it's contributors, don't participate...

 

sTeVE

[Heaven/TQA]

obviously the c64 can not do effects in a8 modes. if a8 didnt made an effect in a c64 mode then it wasnt done?

 

Oswald, did I understand you correctly that you are not counting stuff when it is not done in c64 way??? ehm.... ok maybe you wanted to say that when A8 is using special "trickery" only available on A8 then of course the c64 scene had not adapt it or created it...

 

the FX are made in bitmap mode which VIC has too... so...

 

they use interlace, which VIC has too

 

they use hscrol shif which VIC can do

 

they use 256 colours which VIC can not do but you could use your iFLI stuff instead

 

they use CPU power which C64 has but not enough...

 

Edited December 6, 2008 by Heaven/TQA

[TMR]

I gave him the example of Amiga bitplanes and Amiga sprite merging but I guess he did not read it or did not understand it. The definition of multiple player color is here:

 

http://www.atariarchives.org/c1bag/page192.php

 

And it agrees with reality and with Commodore's Amiga Hardware Reference Manual.

 

i looked at that page previously and here's the part that struck me as most relevant (i've added my own emphasis): "Do you have an object that you want to animate that is just begging to be multicolored? Here is your method of implementation. And if you need even more than three colors, you could use all four (or three, or five) players to display it." So show me where it says that two sprites in tandem become a single multicolour sprite in there...? And if it doesn't that invalidates your point so comparing one multicolour object generated from two sprites to a single multicolour sprite isn't a fair or objective comparison.

[Oswald]

I have statet this before: The Atari had some "construction restrictions" from the beginning, because they didn't care about important stuff by simply not knowing it. Particular the intentional reducing of the colours in hires was done, because they thought a TV cannot display colours in hires. But this was belonging only to NTSC.

 

The C64 was done for moneysaving causes. It's like buying a cheaper car without a steering helper in a time when every other car had it already.

 

what moneysaving?!

 

the only restrictions while designing the c64's custom chips were: time&available chip manufacturin technology. Jack Tramiel told the guys there's no budget. if Bob Yannes had more time he could fit like 9 or more channels into the SID with the same tech to the same chip size, but he had to use a poor engineering solution because -lack of time !

 

the c64 had better steering helper than most other 8bits, and those were the SID& VICII. the motor (cpu) was weaker tho

 

I'd always prefer this:

 

over this:

 

me too. but thats just one game.

[Oswald]

If you don't like the discussion, or it's contributors, don't participate...

 

I will just do so, and ignore posts about what can be compared and whatnot. cheers

[Oswald]

obviously the c64 can not do effects in a8 modes. if a8 didnt made an effect in a c64 mode then it wasnt done?

 

Oswald, did I understand you correctly that you are not counting stuff when it is not done in c64 way??? ehm.... ok maybe you wanted to say that when A8 is using special "trickery" only available on A8 then of course the c64 scene had not adapt it or created it...

 

the FX are made in bitmap mode which VIC has too... so...

 

they use interlace, which VIC has too

 

they use hscrol shif which VIC can do

 

they use 256 colours which VIC can not do but you could use your iFLI stuff instead

 

they use CPU power which C64 has but not enough...

 

 

most if not all of those effects were done better on a8. but I just said they were made for the c64 aswell (in similar quality and in many variations), which is correct I guess.

 

check soiled legacy for a high res bump on the c64. error 23 for another bump and a highres 16col plasma (tho this is slowed down a lot because the demo loads while it is displayed, well some ppl gets around technical limits, some adds more mem )

 

btw, ifli is not an option as it neads 100% cpu where the picture is shown.

[Crazyace]

I was arguing that Atari multicolor sprites are better implementation than C64 multicolor sprites. Yes, I did agree that this would reduce number of sprites. After TMR loses the argument, he tries to change the premises like he did with his sprite Y position argument. Two multicolor Atari sprites give you 6 colors + black + any priority conflict colors. Two C64 multicolor sprites gives 4 colors. End of argument.

 

I have a problem with your argument..

 

If we take 1 multicolour sprite, just to simplify things..

 

Atari is 2 players - so 2 independant colours + 1 mixed colour or black.... that's only 3 colours - with the 3rd colour being very restricted.

(The other priority combinations are very interesting - but they also involve playfield, so they almost negate the 'sprite' aspect - I would use them in the number of colours per line argument )

C64 is 1 independant colour + 2 shared sprite colours. - so for a single sprite there are effectively 3 unrestricted colours.

 

For 2 muticoloured sprites things start to go to the Atari side

 

A8 : 4 independant colours + 2 shared/black = 6

C64 : 2 independant colours + 2 shared = 4

 

so if you stop here ( as you did ) the Atari seems superior...

 

but that's a fallacy.. as you have pretty much exhausted the Atari H/W capabilities here ( missiles could be considers part of the players to avoid any arguments about sprite size ) and the C64 still has 6 more multicolour sprites.

 

If anything the biggest weakness of the C64 sprite system is that there's only 1 unique colour per sprite. You can see it in action in most games and C64 programmers work around the limitation.

However even with this limitation the C64 sprites are still more powerfull than the A8...

 

If someone were trying to replicate the Atari pm's directly they would use 3 C64 sprites to emulate 2 linked players. It wouldn't be elegant - but it would work.

[Gury]

9 game preview

20 games

23 utilities

39 non c64 based utility

 

how much on the a8 ?

Many new entries (software and hardware) this and previous year for Atari too, of course! Check http://atarionline.pl/, http://www.atari8.info/index.php?lang=en, http://atariarea.krap.pl/, http://www.abbuc.de/index.php and other well known links for homebrew production.

[TMR]

I'd always prefer this:

 

 

Deviating from the comparison a bit but... that's going to look a bit different on a television because it's going to artefact fairly badly right?

 

It's more interesting that such a huge userbase is not able to create fast playable 3D on the C64.

 

If we're talking isometric 3D (since that comment follows on from the Amaurote screenshot then there are some C64 examples such as Action Biker, Spindizzy, Vendetta, Mission Impossibubble, Marble Madness, the Last Ninja and Sir Arthur Pendragon series and so on that handle isometric at what most people would consider a reasonable speed; the mistake here is assuming the C64 coder of Amaurote tried and failed to make it work in 3D, according to Ste Pickford he remembers the decision being made before code was started to not directly convert and use the top down view instead.