Atari v Commodore

[Oswald]

Starting a "Turrican" with the exchange of faster CPU speed for a full working Softwaresprite, makes all possible then, because you can move screenhigh "sprites" up and down with hardware scrolling, and you can fill the screen with PM Platforms, or depending on the Level, multiplexed PM for "countless" enemies. Parallax scrolling is also not a real problem...

And the shots, well just use them as on the C64 .... use simple chars

 

Actually, someone could have done a Axelay version for The A8 then. Including the 3D view levels.....

 

[www.atarimania.com]

No it's not. Commodore marketting sucked too.

Fröhn, coming from you, I expected a better reply.

 

For a better perspective, you should read what I wrote on the Retro Gamer forum last year...

 

The main problem is that we'd have to take a time machine, go back to 1983 or 1984 and change the market altogether with the Atari battling out with the C64 and Spectrum in the UK (and not the C16 or Electron).

 

Maybe a piece of code à la Turrican can be written or maybe it can't but my theory is still that the conditions aren't good enough for Atari coders to come up with something as good as Turrican because of the largely uncomplex nature of the games on the platform. On a technical level, not sure what the latest breakthrough on the Atari was but I don't think I saw anything really spectacular in the UK after 1985.

 

Again, a big market share in the UK with some real competition from software houses and a favorable environment for creation would have given the Atari interesting games showcasing more possibilities. Instead, we got virtually no software. In short, those six or seven years missing in the timeline are still hurting development today because we don't have the same references as C64 or Spectrum coders.

 

Additional note: while Atari's presence in Poland REALLY kept the platform alive, it's pretty clear the conditions that existed in the UK weren't there. So, yes, the Atari did catch up with some game concepts (the Polish coders implemented a number of basic ideas that existed and worked on the C64 and Spectrum in the mid to late eighties, all sorts of programs that were missing on the Atari) and technical progress was obvious but the creative edge wasn't really there...

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[Tezz]

those six or seven years missing in the timeline are still hurting development today because we don't have the same references as C64 or Spectrum coders.

Yea we can't get those years back, that's for sure but, we are at least catching up showing what it can do in recent times.

[atarian63]

Commodore 64 (1982)

The Commodore 64 sits on a mile-high pedestal in the adolescent memories of millions of people, but its keyboard design--shared by Commodore's earlier VIC-20--was incredibly clumsy. One glance at it reveals three major flaws. It was visually confusing, with too many symbols printed on each key. The computer's anti-ergonomic 2-inch height made it extremely hard on the wrists of untrained typists. And the keyboard's layout leaves much to be desired, with numerous examples of poor key placement. For example, the Home/Clear key sat directly to the left of Delete (Backspace), resulting in users' making repeated accidental hits and sending the cursor back up to the top of the screen. In addition, the layout was peppered with an unusually large number of nonstandard keys such as Run/Stop and Restore. Luckily, most C64 owners remained oblivious to these problems: More often than not, they used the C64 for playing games with joysticks, saving the heavy computing work for dad's IBM PC. - PC World's 10 Worst Keyboards, Nov 1 2007

 

most shitty review of a keyboard ever...:

 

1. look at your pc keyboard, do you see 2-3 symbols on the keys on the top face to them ? now tell me that is NOT VISUALLY CONFUSING?? the c64 has the extra symbols on the front face of the keys. VISUALLY CONFUSING MY ASS.

2. for example on the pc the home key sats directly beside the INSERT and the PAGE UP button, not possible to make an accidental hit? gimme a break.

3. unusually large number of nonstandard keys? my ass. run/stop, shift lock,restore, that makes THREE.

4. c64ers used joysticks to play games because a) they had joysticks, b) most games didnt handle keyboard.

probably the most accurate description I have seen, not to mention the cheap feel.

[emkay]

Everyone knows that the A8 can't do Turrican, I'm just saying it isn't the greatest on the C64 either. Why not choose Hawkeye instead.

 

But the C64 could?

 

 

Emkay trranslation of Heinrich Lenhardt's statement:

 

Not sure what it means. The coders created one of the technically outmost important C64 games, but the game itself lets me standing cold on this computer. The graphics are manifold and it's highly complex, but the gameplay isn't as half as nice.

The AMIGA port playabilitiy is much better, competes to Arcades and its playabe much more fun.

This piece you could use in Arcade-Halls without any doubt. Technically and musically it competes easily with Arcades.

 

 

And now in Emkay words:

 

Just like many other C64 "Classics" , you got an interactive graphics- and sound- Demonstration.

[Fröhn]

Maybe a piece of code à la Turrican can be written or maybe it can't but my theory is still that the conditions aren't good enough for Atari coders to come up with something as good as Turrican because of the largely uncomplex nature of the games on the platform. On a technical level, not sure what the latest breakthrough on the Atari was but I don't think I saw anything really spectacular in the UK after 1985.

I must admit that for Turrican I absolutely prefer the Amiga version. Reason: In-game music.

 

Again, a big market share in the UK with some real competition from software houses and a favorable environment for creation would have given the Atari interesting games showcasing more possibilities. Instead, we got virtually no software. In short, those six or seven years missing in the timeline are still hurting development today because we don't have the same references as C64 or Spectrum coders.

When C64 started at the end of 1982/beginning of 1983, there was absolutely NO software for it while A8 had lots of stuff around already. I don't think that availability of software can explain why C64 sold more than A8 in the end.

 

Additional note: while Atari's presence in Poland REALLY kept the platform alive, it's pretty clear the conditions that existed in the UK weren't there. So, yes, the Atari did catch up with some game concepts (the Polish coders implemented a number of basic ideas that existed and worked on the C64 and Spectrum in the mid to late eighties, all sorts of programs that were missing on the Atari) and technical progress was obvious but the creative edge wasn't really there...

As I see it the C64 is much more "hacking friendly" than the A8. It was more or less just a fortunate and unfortunate combination at the same time: Crappy basic forced you to use ML, slow disk drive forced you to buy a cartridge (which contained a ML monitor) etc. It's kinda weird, but some of the disadvantages of the C64 worked for it's advantage.

[Oswald]

probably the most accurate description I have seen, not to mention the cheap feel.

 

I agree, in case of the a8 keyboards it fits nicely. including your "cheap" feel.

[atarian63]

Maybe a piece of code à la Turrican can be written or maybe it can't but my theory is still that the conditions aren't good enough for Atari coders to come up with something as good as Turrican because of the largely uncomplex nature of the games on the platform. On a technical level, not sure what the latest breakthrough on the Atari was but I don't think I saw anything really spectacular in the UK after 1985.

I must admit that for Turrican I absolutely prefer the Amiga version. Reason: In-game music.

 

Again, a big market share in the UK with some real competition from software houses and a favorable environment for creation would have given the Atari interesting games showcasing more possibilities. Instead, we got virtually no software. In short, those six or seven years missing in the timeline are still hurting development today because we don't have the same references as C64 or Spectrum coders.

When C64 started at the end of 1982/beginning of 1983, there was absolutely NO software for it while A8 had lots of stuff around already. I don't think that availability of software can explain why C64 sold more than A8 in the end.

 

Additional note: while Atari's presence in Poland REALLY kept the platform alive, it's pretty clear the conditions that existed in the UK weren't there. So, yes, the Atari did catch up with some game concepts (the Polish coders implemented a number of basic ideas that existed and worked on the C64 and Spectrum in the mid to late eighties, all sorts of programs that were missing on the Atari) and technical progress was obvious but the creative edge wasn't really there...

As I see it the C64 is much more "hacking friendly" than the A8. It was more or less just a fortunate and unfortunate combination at the same time: Crappy basic forced you to use ML, slow disk drive forced you to buy a cartridge (which contained a ML monitor) etc. It's kinda weird, but some of the disadvantages of the C64 worked for it's advantage.

The are only 2 reasons,

1: Price

2:Atari nuked their distribution channel in the video game crash of 83,customer bought what was available at kmart, by 84 it was c64 and no atari.

 

On another note since there has been alot of mention of arcades.. Atari was kicking but in the Arcades at this time, a complete other division that was doing well.

Funny the c64 guys talk about arcades and Atari was arcades.

Edited December 8, 2008 by atarian63

[Oswald]

Everyone knows that the A8 can't do Turrican, I'm just saying it isn't the greatest on the C64 either. Why not choose Hawkeye instead.

 

But the C64 could?

 

 

Emkay trranslation of Heinrich Lenhardt's statement:

 

forget amiga. we are comparing a8 and c64. and the a8 cant do turrican, unless you do it it half as fast and double as ugly. compare that to the amiga & c64 version. then go sit in a corner

[Cybergoth]

Everyone knows that the A8 can't do Turrican, I'm just saying it isn't the greatest on the C64 either. Why not choose Hawkeye instead.

 

But the C64 could?

 

 

Emkay trranslation of Heinrich Lenhardt's statement:

 

Not sure what it means. The coders created one of the technically outmost important C64 games, but the game itself lets me standing cold on this computer. The graphics are manifold and it's highly complex, but the gameplay isn't as half as nice.

The AMIGA port playabilitiy is much better, competes to Arcades and its playabe much more fun.

This piece you could use in Arcade-Halls without any doubt. Technically and musically it competes easily with Arcades.

 

 

And now in Emkay words:

 

Just like many other C64 "Classics" , you got an interactive graphics- and sound- Demonstration.

 

I was stating that the Miggy version is much better from the beginning. The C64 version isn't bad, just lacking in direct comparison, while the A8 couldn't do it at all.

 

Have a look at Trenz' own Famicom version of Turrican. An A8 attempt would be even worse than that.

[Oswald]

The are only 2 reasons,

1: Price

2:Atari nuked their distribution channel in the video game crash of 83,customer bought what was available at kmart, by 84 it was c64 and no atari.

 

 

you forgot a reason. without that they could have selled cheap rocks, or sand from the beach...

 

3. c64 being both better and cheaper.

 

[emkay]

forget amiga. we are comparing a8 and c64. and the a8 cant do turrican, unless you do it it half as fast and double as ugly. compare that to the amiga & c64 version. then go sit in a corner

 

Ofcourse we are talking about C64 and Atari GAMES. But, how to argue with people that prefer interactive graphics- and sound- demos, instead of bigfun-playable GAMES?

[Oswald]

forget amiga. we are comparing a8 and c64. and the a8 cant do turrican, unless you do it it half as fast and double as ugly. compare that to the amiga & c64 version. then go sit in a corner

how to argue with people that prefer interactive graphics- and sound- demos, instead of bigfun-playable GAMES?

 

you're doing quite well. dont give up

[Paranoid]

I can't believe this stuff still goes on and you guys are still going at it.

 

I suppose there is some academic merit, and that one machine may actually be "superior" than the other...

 

But for all practical purposes, Commodore destroyed Atari all the way through the end of the 16 bit era - until PC and Mac put the smack down and established that these "specialty home PCs" were dinosaurs from a special era.

 

You might as well be arguing the NES versus the 7800... and... oh, wait... there is a thread for THAT here, somewhere... too.

[Alison DeMeyer]

forget amiga. we are comparing a8 and c64. and the a8 cant do turrican, unless you do it it half as fast and double as ugly. compare that to the amiga & c64 version. then go sit in a corner

how to argue with people that prefer interactive graphics- and sound- demos, instead of bigfun-playable GAMES?

 

you're doing quite well. dont give up

 

 

But you're doing worse, time to give up.

[Alison DeMeyer]

It certainly didn't have the same amount of people doing ML, only people like you who can't do shit. Btw guys like you already scared of lots of productive people who were pissed off by Atari scene before they even started.

Was this comment really necessary? How do you think insulting FastRobPlus in any way contributes positively to this thread? It doesn't. Further comments of this nature from anyone will result in immediate removal from the 8-bit forum. If you can't discuss this topic in a rational manner, then please stop posting in it.

 

Thanks,

 

..Al

 

iirc I have already reported this FastRobPlus guy for personal insults. yet he is here.

 

 

May I remind you of your personal insult towards emkay? Something along the lines of, what was it, oh yes: SHITTYBOY. That truly was the worst personal insult.

YET YOU ARE STILL HERE.

[Tezz]

This continuous obsessive talk about Turrican is very tiresome. Turrican is possible on the A8, it would be a LOT of work (to put it mildly) and require compromises yes, but it's possible IMHO. I don't think it's really worth discussing the finer points of that here where it's just being used as an example for the sake of arguing this point about the superiority of features.

[frogstar_robot]

I suppose there is some academic merit

 

The more thoughtful ones are actually posting code and sayings things like "Well, we don't have as many sprites but we can..." So interspersed in the personal attacks, interesting history and ways of overcoming limitations are coming up. Just put Fröhn, Oswald, Allison, and emkay on ignore and what's left is pretty fascinating.

[www.atarimania.com]

When C64 started at the end of 1982/beginning of 1983, there was absolutely NO software for it while A8 had lots of stuff around already. I don't think that availability of software can explain why C64 sold more than A8 in the end.

The crash, Atari's crappy marketing and Commodore are the reasons why the C64 became the platform of choice in the US. In the UK, Atari computers were available courtesy of Ingersoll first but at prices that were much too high. Not only that but imported software also carried insane price tags (just check some early Computer & Video Games). Atari should've been more successful in the early eighties but never created any market opportunities for cheap software and the company's computers. The VIC-20, Spectrum then C64 took over and the rest is history...

 

Part of the C64's legend is due to the development of more and more sophisticated arcade games in the UK. As I wrote above, in a market with fierce competition and with some proper "emulation" within the community to boot, it's clearly understandable why the C64 was a winner. The Atari didn't have much of this and even Paul Woakes had to sell Encounter! to Synapse Software in the US first! Can you imagine the Atari 8-bit had to catch up with five years of literally no development or technical progress?

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

Edited December 8, 2008 by www.atarimania.com

[Fröhn]

The more thoughtful ones are actually posting code and sayings things like "Well, we don't have as many sprites but we can..." So interspersed in the personal attacks, interesting history and ways of overcoming limitations are coming up. Just put Fröhn, Oswald, Allison, and emkay on ignore and what's left is pretty fascinating.

That would required people like you doing walk the walk instead of talk the talk. Ignore alone doesn't do anything.

[Alison DeMeyer]

probably the most accurate description I have seen, not to mention the cheap feel.

 

I agree, in case of the a8 keyboards it fits nicely. including your "cheap" feel.

 

 

That's true Oswald Baby: 'my keyboard is bad, but YOUR keyboard is worse'..... That's all you care about don't you? My computer is better than yours even when it's not. Give up, whilst you still got an ounce of (un)credibilty.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Alison DeMeyer

[Cybergoth]

That's true Oswald Baby: 'my keyboard is bad, but YOUR keyboard is worse'..... That's all you care about don't you? My computer is better than yours even when it's not. Give up, whilst you still got an ounce of (un)credibilty.

 

Since all warnings don't seem to help, I'll just begin suspending accounts, starting with this one.

[emkay]

Once again, R-Type. Where Oswald said, it is a good game on the Spectrum.

Just let's have a closer look at the graphics itself.

 

I have marked the position red/with arrows where you have to take care about.

 

The game is just using "char" animation and the object with the higher priority is drawn last. Games like Turrican, Test Drive or Space Harrier on the C64 work partially the same, where the sprites are not enough.

Does anyone know one commercial (machine language) game on the A8 that works also on this resolution for object-movement?

 

And no, Drop Zone doesn't move in charmode steps. It rolls graphics data inside char-clusters...

[emkay]

That's true Oswald Baby: 'my keyboard is bad, but YOUR keyboard is worse'..... That's all you care about don't you? My computer is better than yours even when it's not. Give up, whilst you still got an ounce of (un)credibilty.

 

Since all warnings don't seem to help, I'll just begin suspending accounts, starting with this one.

 

You think you're doing right here?

 

Why not starting with people who break law , releasing Private stuff without permission of others, as KJMANN did? Or why not starting with people who still do provoking others with nonsense and insults as Oswald did and still does?

 

Well Oswald DOES write here to break off the community and you step right into his trap?

[spookt]

After everything that's been said by some people in this thread your suspending Alison's account because of that remark ???