Atari v Commodore

[atariksi]

The 800xl was light years better in construction than C64, at least they used actual steel sheilding, the c64 used tinfoil cardboard, it was laughable

 

I think the steel shielding is laughable when a tinfoil cardboard is enough. why would anyone want kgs of steel in a machine ?!

 

Although you have to admit the shielding certainly had a positive effect on picture quality (through RF at least). But anyway, the heavy shielding was the result of tight FCC regulations regarding RF interference, IIRC. I'm pretty sure Atari would've gone with thin shielding had the FCC not been so strict (and they eventually did with the 1200XL).

 

The Atari 800XL shielding is pretty thin compared to the Atari 800. Atari 800 has a calorimeter for the cartridge slot.

[emkay]

let me explain:

 

- a8 space harrier uses 320k, c64 one uses 64k (and 20 years earlier) 320k allows to precalculate many many many things.

I know where the C64 can be faster than the Atari version.... Due to the expansion you play a movie

- if I use the factory default ram expansion to equal the rams, then I will also have an extra hw, since its built in, (DMA) which copyes bytes at 1byte/cycle speed. pretty handy to draw software sprites.

 

The only difference between Space Harrier 64K and Space Harrier 320K is the difference of the shapes in the levels that can be used. After then, the data has to be sorted and copied-> a faster cpu does this faster aswell. Not to forget that the CPU copies one byte and two bytes are set. Compared to the C64 this results in a >2MHz CPU, because Antic is helping filling the screen.

Space Harrier on the C64 doesn't use char-movement, because of lacking memory. It does this to simply save CPU time.

 

- a8 version uses interlace -> it fills 2 bitmap instead of just one. c64 can add colors using just 1 bitmap = 2x faster than a8 method- > will be faster. (1.7/2 vs 1 mhz) without DMA logic.

 

You really know nothing about the Atari, do you?

Could you tell me please, where in the world the Atari needs interlace for cycling palette colours?

Edited December 9, 2008 by emkay

[emkay]

Now I find ST vs. Amiga comparisons amusing, because at that point Atari and Commodore had effectively traded design teams. The ST is more closely related to the C64, and the Amiga is the direct descendant of the A8.

 

The ST is designwise more like the Plus 4. Was it like the C64 it had a better soundchip and sprites from the beginning

The Amiga is clearly the 16bit generation of the A8. With the exception of the used 68000 instead of the early plans to use a 16 bit 65xxx processor.

[Oswald]

You really know nothing about the Atari, do you?

Could you tell me please, where in the world the Atari needs interlace for cycling palette colours?

 

could you please tell me where in the world have i said that? and why does a 256 color machine need interlace to get more colors ?!

[emkay]

could you please tell me where in the world have i said that? and why does a 256 color machine need interlace to get more colors ?!

 

If someone ask me in the future what a "Oxymoron" ist, I will quote this last sentences to him.

 

 

Only one hint: The Atari does not need interlace to get more colours. The interlace is often used to have a higher colour density. But Space harrier is not using interlace anywhere. It uses "flicker" which is nothing but a palette interleaving. The game itself would look impressive enough even without it.

[Fröhn]

The interlace is often used to have a higher colour density. But Space harrier is not using interlace anywhere. It uses "flicker" which is nothing but a palette interleaving. The game itself would look impressive enough even without it.

Uh what? Space Harrier is using Interlace for more than 4 colors on screen. Works quite well btw, it's a quite amazing 8 bit implementation of space harrier.

[Bryan]

The c64 had it for Years and years, the models you mention were much later in the c64's life, the vast majority of the c64s were the cardboard foil type, in other works cheap.

"much later" = the huge majority of C64s. For every old tinfoil C64 there are 20 C64C.

No, most c64s were the old brown ugly ones. Cheaply made.

I think it depends on where you live. In the US, the 64 was a strong seller from the day the first ads ran. I have seen many, many more brown 64's than the C model. I think outside the US, the sales of 8-bit machines were still strong into the 16-bit era.

[Bryan]

You can easily put a palm rest in front of it and make it even easier to use...

What, wait... Easier to use? I thought everyone claimed the 800 had great ergonomics. Why do you need to make it easier to use?

The 800 was designed to have similar ergonomics to a typewriter. I don't know if that's good ergonomics, but that was the thinking. I personally don't think there's much difference to typing on a 64 vs. an 800 other than the key layout.

[Bryan]

speaking of industry innovation, VCS' competitor the fairchild f, had actually something called Video Ram... and it was cheaper too... ppl thought its a pong gamecoz of the badly choosen name, so VCS became "industry innovation"...the fairchild can do pacman without getting eyecancer fex. check youtube...

 

Pac-Man on the 2600 isn't an example of anything but poor programming. Pac-Man on the Channel F is impressive for what that system can do, but Nukey's Pesco-to-PacMan hacks are much better for comparison.

[Bryan]

Now I find ST vs. Amiga comparisons amusing, because at that point Atari and Commodore had effectively traded design teams. The ST is more closely related to the C64, and the Amiga is the direct descendant of the A8.

 

what I find amusing is how a8 fans are constantly trying to claim a piece of amiga's fame. but the amiga was C='s. without C= there would have been no amiga, just ripped off chips in an atari pc. so stop stealing, and stick to c64 vs a8.

When the people primarily responsible for one machine build another machine and say outright that it was an expansion on the concepts used in the previous machine, then I think linking the Amiga to the A8 historically is legitimate.

 

You say there'd be no Amiga without Commodore but the Amiga existed before Commodore got involved, and Atari was actively trying to purchase the design. Commodore made a better deal in the end but the Amiga would have come to market either way.

[Bryan]

Many cartoons are 24 fps - which means 24 individual pictures / second. Sprite flickering is still 60 pictures per second - and each only has 4 sprites in this case.

 

The problem with multiplexing isn't the rate, it's the persistence of the tv/monitor which causes the image to quickly fade and flicker. When movie frames are shown on a screen, they are kept up there for almost the entire interval without fading.

[Bryan]

The 800xl was light years better in construction than C64, at least they used actual steel sheilding, the c64 used tinfoil cardboard, it was laughable

 

I think the steel shielding is laughable when a tinfoil cardboard is enough. why would anyone want kgs of steel in a machine ?!

This is a stupid point to still be arguing: My computer's shielding is better made than your computer's shielding. I know, let's compare the rubber feet!

[Bryan]

indeed, even if the game on A8 LOOKS MORE UGLY, playability is there to help poor allas out for teh win or vice versa.

 

which generation of the A8 are you referring to? 400/800, XL, or XE. 3 different styles there, and the Jack Tremial designed both the C64 and XE series. The 2nd generation of C64 & C128D have a lower profile and look similar to the XL/XEs. Can't believe people are just looking at the 400/800 and saying the C64 is has a better keyboard and look without mentioning the XL/XE models. Its a matter of opinion, but I prefer the later lower profile computers because there easier to type on. Never liked the older/taller profile of the Vic-20, C64, Atari 800. Oh did you know the Atari 400 and Commodore Pets were on the list of worst keyboards?

He said the game looks ugly, not the machine.

[Heaven/TQA]

could you please tell me where in the world have i said that? and why does a 256 color machine need interlace to get more colors ?!

 

If someone ask me in the future what a "Oxymoron" ist, I will quote this last sentences to him.

 

 

Only one hint: The Atari does not need interlace to get more colours. The interlace is often used to have a higher colour density. But Space harrier is not using interlace anywhere. It uses "flicker" which is nothing but a palette interleaving. The game itself would look impressive enough even without it.

 

? MK, it is "interlacing" between the colours to get more on screen and they "flicker"...

[Sheddy]

Start to make a C64 version of Space Harrier with a real Gameplay resolution of 160x100, and see the C64 whining.

Using graphics? Too slow. It would end in a "Mood" resolution of 40x50

Using multiple Sprites? This would slowdown the cpu to effective 500-600MHz. Not much for game calculations, where the Atari has around 1.5MHz left. Oops... this made my calculations wrong. The Gain would be up to 300% then

 

hello... you are comparing 64k machine with 320k...

 

so then I can use RAM expansion aswell, and REU (ram expansion unit) for the c64 has.. DMA.. and the c64 can display colors... without interlace... I am seeing a whining emkay...

 

or.. if I wouldnt use the DMA on the REU, then.. as I dont need interlace to add colors, I can draw the scenery twice as fast... only one bitmap to update... c64 will be faster even this way

 

I can also see where the C64 would have issues with game port like Space Harrier, or anything that is going have lots of moving objects on the screen. Even if you use the C64 color map & sprites, you're still limited by the 1Mhz CPU speed. Coding something like this has to be real efficient.

 

let me explain:

 

- a8 space harrier uses 320k, c64 one uses 64k (and 20 years earlier) 320k allows to precalculate many many many things.

- if I use the factory default ram expansion to equal the rams, then I will also have an extra hw, since its built in, (DMA) which copyes bytes at 1byte/cycle speed. pretty handy to draw software sprites.

- a8 version uses interlace -> it fills 2 bitmap instead of just one. c64 can add colors using just 1 bitmap = 2x faster than a8 method- > will be faster. (1.7/2 vs 1 mhz) without DMA logic.

 

only demo version of Space Harrier needs 128K RAM, current cart version needs 64K RAM. (Cart is 1MB though!)

[emkay]

? MK, it is "interlacing" between the colours to get more on screen and they "flicker"...

 

Shall I explain english ?

 

Interlace means in fact (and technically) doing meshes/knots.... It can be a joining of different math routines. Or, in TV Sets used to build more lines on the screen. Or, in old computers to enhance the colour count (or resolution)...

 

Interleave means simple changes picture after picture .... step by step. There is no complex interlace in Space Harrier.

[Heaven/TQA]

let me explain:

 

- a8 space harrier uses 320k, c64 one uses 64k (and 20 years earlier) 320k allows to precalculate many many many things.

I know where the C64 can be faster than the Atari version.... Due to the expansion you play a movie

- if I use the factory default ram expansion to equal the rams, then I will also have an extra hw, since its built in, (DMA) which copyes bytes at 1byte/cycle speed. pretty handy to draw software sprites.

 

The only difference between Space Harrier 64K and Space Harrier 320K is the difference of the shapes in the levels that can be used. After then, the data has to be sorted and copied-> a faster cpu does this faster aswell. Not to forget that the CPU copies one byte and two bytes are set. Compared to the C64 this results in a >2MHz CPU, because Antic is helping filling the screen.

Space Harrier on the C64 doesn't use char-movement, because of lacking memory. It does this to simply save CPU time.

 

- a8 version uses interlace -> it fills 2 bitmap instead of just one. c64 can add colors using just 1 bitmap = 2x faster than a8 method- > will be faster. (1.7/2 vs 1 mhz) without DMA logic.

 

You really know nothing about the Atari, do you?

Could you tell me please, where in the world the Atari needs interlace for cycling palette colours?

 

we should leave speculations of Space Harrier XE to Sheddy, the coder... I assume that the RAM is used for preshifting all gfx and to have unrolled "set shape" routines... and of course the move tables for the level data....

[Heaven/TQA]

Start to make a C64 version of Space Harrier with a real Gameplay resolution of 160x100, and see the C64 whining.

Using graphics? Too slow. It would end in a "Mood" resolution of 40x50

Using multiple Sprites? This would slowdown the cpu to effective 500-600MHz. Not much for game calculations, where the Atari has around 1.5MHz left. Oops... this made my calculations wrong. The Gain would be up to 300% then

 

hello... you are comparing 64k machine with 320k...

 

so then I can use RAM expansion aswell, and REU (ram expansion unit) for the c64 has.. DMA.. and the c64 can display colors... without interlace... I am seeing a whining emkay...

 

or.. if I wouldnt use the DMA on the REU, then.. as I dont need interlace to add colors, I can draw the scenery twice as fast... only one bitmap to update... c64 will be faster even this way

 

I can also see where the C64 would have issues with game port like Space Harrier, or anything that is going have lots of moving objects on the screen. Even if you use the C64 color map & sprites, you're still limited by the 1Mhz CPU speed. Coding something like this has to be real efficient.

 

let me explain:

 

- a8 space harrier uses 320k, c64 one uses 64k (and 20 years earlier) 320k allows to precalculate many many many things.

- if I use the factory default ram expansion to equal the rams, then I will also have an extra hw, since its built in, (DMA) which copyes bytes at 1byte/cycle speed. pretty handy to draw software sprites.

- a8 version uses interlace -> it fills 2 bitmap instead of just one. c64 can add colors using just 1 bitmap = 2x faster than a8 method- > will be faster. (1.7/2 vs 1 mhz) without DMA logic.

 

only demo version of Space Harrier needs 128K RAM, current cart version needs 64K RAM. (Cart is 1MB though!)

 

oh. haven't seen that you already replied...

[frogstar_robot]

You say there'd be no Amiga without Commodore but the Amiga existed before Commodore got involved, and Atari was actively trying to purchase the design. Commodore made a better deal in the end but the Amiga would have come to market either way.

 

The OCS chipset would have but the presentation would likely have been very different. It would have had a different OS. Things like the case and keyboard would have been different as well. Perhaps Curt knows something about how that would have shaken out?

 

In any case, it was best for the technology that it Atari didn't get it. It would have had a marketplace trajectory similar to the ST's with the Tramiels cheaping out on everything in sight from the fit and finish of the machine itself to the marketing and developer's kits. Commodore surely didn't always make the best decisions but a stock page on the wall and a set of darts could have outperformed the Tramiels.

[Heaven/TQA]

You say there'd be no Amiga without Commodore but the Amiga existed before Commodore got involved, and Atari was actively trying to purchase the design. Commodore made a better deal in the end but the Amiga would have come to market either way.

 

The OCS chipset would have but the presentation would likely have been very different. It would have had a different OS. Things like the case and keyboard would have been different as well. Perhaps Curt knows something about how that would have shaken out?

 

In any case, it was best for the technology that it Atari didn't get it. It would have had a marketplace trajectory similar to the ST's with the Tramiels cheaping out on everything in sight from the fit and finish of the machine itself to the marketing and developer's kits. Commodore surely didn't always make the best decisions but a stock page on the wall and a set of darts could have outperformed the Tramiels.

 

JT would not allow to have the guys make their stamps in the housing... Maybe I should reactivate my Amiga... lovely machine...

[xxl]

c64 is fine machine with much more games...

 

but can you do that on c64?

-

emulate other machine? in this case zx spectrum...

or... bbc micro? appleII? (example:

)

on atari (thanks Antic) it is rather easy.

[Crazyace]

Many cartoons are 24 fps - which means 24 individual pictures / second. Sprite flickering is still 60 pictures per second - and each only has 4 sprites in this case.

 

The problem with multiplexing isn't the rate, it's the persistence of the tv/monitor which causes the image to quickly fade and flicker. When movie frames are shown on a screen, they are kept up there for almost the entire interval without fading.

 

But the problem is the rate - the persistance is pretty well defined for NTSC/PAL - and multiplexing sprites flicker.

The original comparision with cartoons was invalid as it tried to imply that 30 Hz sprite flicker was the same as 24fps cartoons.

( 24 fps movies are often shown 3 times at 72 fps - and 24fps cartoons are often doubled up for PAL )

 

I'm quite interested in horizontal reuse of players - but I think it will consume the cpu cycles quite quickly

[Bryan]

The OCS chipset would have but the presentation would likely have been very different. It would have had a different OS. Things like the case and keyboard would have been different as well. Perhaps Curt knows something about how that would have shaken out?

My guess is that it would have turned out much like the ST (but with better hw) but would have been done in less time.

[emkay]

My guess is that it would have turned out much like the ST (but with better hw) but would have been done in less time.

 

Yes. 2 years earlier, if only ATARI was a better "managed" company back then.

[Crazyace]

My guess is that it would have turned out much like the ST (but with better hw) but would have been done in less time.

 

Yes. 2 years earlier, if only ATARI was a better "managed" company back then.

 

This could be a whole new topic.... What would Atari had produced if they werent mismanaged...

 

Ie: The a8 graphics h/w remained unchanged over it's whole life ( baring GTIA/CTIA ) - even the c64 had a major upgrade going to the c128 ( and the c65 looked really cool )

It seemed that no work on Antic/GTIA occured after the initial design... the 1200XL could have had enhanced graphics / 80 colums - or even better colour cell selection ( copying the idea from the Vic20 or TI99 ) to match the way the plus4 worked... ( and better PM )