OldSchoolRetroGamer Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Of course it didn't take long to have a peek inside the 800XL and 520STm I just received, in both cases I just wanted to pop the covers off, not too dusty inside but the metal shielding seems fairly rusted, in this typical for such old computers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodos8 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Of course it didn't take long to have a peek inside the 800XL and 520STm I just received, in both cases I just wanted to pop the covers off, not too dusty inside but the metal shielding seems fairly rusted, in this typical for such old computers?I'd venture to say yes. Never had an old atari computer, but I've seen the rust on the RF shield on a 5200 and several 2600's. Its fairly typical imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolRetroGamer Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 More importantly, is it dangerous? Do I or rather can I DO anything about it? Should I bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Fairly common to find rusting on the shielding. You can mirror polish it like I did to the first 800XL that I restored, or you can take it off and put it in the trash like I did with all the others (takes too long to take it off when you want to do a new mod ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Mine are all fine. If anything, it'd be "less dangerous" since rusty steel would be a poorer conductor than good steel, if a condition was to occur where something loose caused a short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookt Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Most of mine are rusty, too long spent in damp lofts / basements I guess. It won't hurt anything. If you start venturing in to adding mods you'll probably end up throwing it away like mimo said. I thought about cleaning one of mine up at one point but then thought heck, when the case is on I can't see it so who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolRetroGamer Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) Uhm OK, thanks for all your input people, great to get advice form the experts, I am half tempted then to simply remove the RF shielding for both the look and easier future access should I choose to upgrade, but one final question then : Is there any danger or downside to removing the shielding completely?, I mean it was put there for a reason correct? Edited January 28, 2009 by OldSchoolRetroGamer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I think it was put there to stop the rf interfering with other electrical devices, in my experience this does not happen. I have been using my workhorse 800XL,7800 and original xbox for 3 years with no problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 RF shielding, mainly for the benefit of "other" equipment. Added bonus that it can keep components relatively dust-free. Downside that it can retain heat, not that they exactly put out much to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urchlay Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Is there any danger or downside to removing the shielding completely?, I mean it was put there for a reason correct? Well, if you remove the shielding, then get in your time machine and travel back to the early 1980s, the Atari will violate the FCC regulations that were in effect back then.... Otherwise, no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+poobah Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Some of the XL's had a rubber block on top of the shielding to help support the keyboard. So, its not completely useless. I'd probably still toss it tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobus Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Is there any danger or downside to removing the shielding completely?, I mean it was put there for a reason correct? Well, if you remove the shielding, then get in your time machine and travel back to the early 1980s, the Atari will violate the FCC regulations that were in effect back then.... Otherwise, no I tried that, but the RF interference messed up my time machine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 My experience is, that it is better to leave the shielding inside your computer. The problem you describe is not really important, so leave it there (my advice). Why is it better to leave the shielding inside the atari? Well some external equipment (like MyIDE) is needing a good mass to operate properly. Don't know why, it is just based on experience. I have played enough with MyIDE to know that it works better in an atari WITH the shield, in stead of atari's without the shield. Marius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 the shielding is indeed useful, my trusty oscilloscope show interference without it, while the Atari is fairly tolerant of not having the shielding Marius is correct i have at least 3 items that work better with the shielding on... to throw it away is a Big mistake. some of the nice new devices for the 8 bit like the shielding to be able to handle the full speed of the device without errors. anyone who throws it away could be sorry in the future. I took this 'advice' about it not being needed and was Very sorry. So keep it and don't fall into the lazy trap. The shield helps. It keeps the chips clean and dry, shunts static to ground, keeps interference out as well as in. The 130XE that I threw the shielding away for worked fine at my original house but always screwed up when I took it to my buddies house. I finally nailed it down to the fact that it's shielding being missing was the cause. We took the shield from a trashed 130XE and put it on never had a problem at his house again. Just because it works for one person at one location does not mean it works for everyone. This is why so many people have problem with the older tinkered with stuff. And someone always say... works fine for me it must have other problems... blah blah blah.. That line of reasoning works fine till it bites oneself in the but like it did to me..... So please keep your shielding... you never know when you and your Atari will need it. Properly installed shielding not only help all the above situations but in the 130 XE it make the unit stronger stiffer and quieter. No creaking! 'nuff said _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Ahemm*bullsh!t*hememmm.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApolloBoy Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) some of the nice new devices for the 8 bit like the shielding to be able to handle the full speed of the device without errors. ? I'm gonna have to agree with MetalGuy on this one. Edited February 2, 2009 by ApolloBoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 A bit OT here, but has anyone tried twisted pair or something with individual ground returns like 80-wire IDE leads for SIO? Would they allow us to use higher bit-rates, or is the limiting factor elsewhere such as within Pokey or on the motherboard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ahemm*bullsh!t*hememmm.. As I wrote above. It is not a theory, but my personal experience, -so far only with- MyIDE. Simple as said: tested with at least 5 atari's. Same atari with MyIDE but no Shield: fail. ... when I installed the shield, it worked. The reason I give to this, is that the shield results in a better 'mass' which might be needed for some reason. So in this case it might not be the 'shielding' the reason for the (dis)functionality, but more the lack of enough mass. Fact is, that MY experience is: myide works better with an atari with shield. And that is no bullshit. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) I'll tellya what MIGHT actually be a consideration... The video circuits... Even AFTER the "clearpic, super-video," or whatever variation of fine tuning or fix you want to apply to an atari XL or XE, the video circuit sucks.... And I mean its very succeptable to interference from a multitude of sources.. This is not going to make the machine crash or operate incorrectly, but all too often, it does effect the display quality.. Many people (myself included) have considered producing a "replacement" for the analog video output circuits on the atari on a PCB to correct some of the problems that are "unfixable" due to the way that the actual circuits are layed out on the motherboards.. It's so bad, in fact, that it's almost as if Atari PCB layout guys read a book on "effective design of RF/EMF sensitive analog circuits" and blatently did the opposite/ignored every basic convention discussed in the book.. Many people have commented on this in the past, so its pretty well-known that it sucks... With the shield on, at least you have a somewhat constant level of "suckitude" rather than variations due to the emf environment in which the machine is currently being used. So in that respect, yeah the shield does have some benefit.. But as far as it causing a functional problem with digital circuits in the machine... heh.. no... The shield is there bewcase the FCC regulations required the ATARI not to cause "undesired operation" of other devices... So if you are listening to an AM radio and the reciever/antenna is within 6 inches of the machine.. Yeah.. I'd want the shield... If the input wires going from your home stereo reciever to the amplifier are running directly under the atari, then yeah... Thats another scenario where The shield would be nice.. But not because the atari would have problems. As far as MyIDE goes.. heh.. Dude I used to build sell the internal MyIDE kits for Sijmen Shouten.. That design barely works and is temperamental as hell with some IDE devices, but its still all digital.. And its based on slow-assed TTL logic with 0/5v levels.. Any operational variations you see in it are going to based on state/timing.. I'm not going to say theres no possible way the shield could influence it, but it'd have to be some damn high levels of EMF.. Edited February 2, 2009 by MEtalGuy66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 My 800xl looks like sh*t withouth it's shield.. no bull.... My 130XE has I/O problems without It's shield... no bull... I am not the only person to observe this.... NO bull.... Marius1976... I understand what you are saying completely.... the shielding performs a function and I agree from personal experience. While many will split hairs untill only a monofiliment exists the bottom line is the shield does make a positive difference to the Atari and whatever is around it. No *BULLSH!T* btw the noises observed.... local AM radio station..... ignition from neighbors car... and mutlitude of other spurious emissions... some were harmonics of other devices in the area. A HAM radio friend showed me this and asked why the shield was off. He took no time at all to explain what all the chirps and clicks and pops were and showed me the differences shield on shield off as well as how different areas of exposed circuits generated their own signals as well as how different lengths of wire and circuits pick up other singals. Poorly laid out video not only produced interference but received it as well. I am sure I could have listened further but my eyes glossed over. The shields were put back on. The problem went away. No *Bullsh!t* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+poobah Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 If taking the shield off your 8-bit makes it act flaky, you have other problems besides RF. The A8s are from an era where FCC certifications were far stricter than today. Issues obtaining FCC certification are known to have delayed several Atari products. The shielding was necessary to pass those tests. Pop open any random piece of electronics in your house today- How much shielding do you see? Odds are you will find a bare circuit board inside a plastic case with no shielding whatsoever (maybe some around transmitters, such as a wireless router radio section). Now consider the voltages, currents and frequencies in an A8 vs modern hardware... Do you think stray RF will have a greater effect on a 2 MHz bus operating at 5 volts or a 600 MHz bus running at 1.2 volts? Almost every circuit in a computer is a transmitter and receiver in some fashion, but I'd be more worried about a bare A8 interfering with some other device than it being interfered with. Don't just blindly believe stuff. THINK it out. Do you have to be mindful of the RF environment that a circuit will operate in? ABSOLUTELY. Will your A8 malfunction without being wrapped in a few square feet of metal? Only if it already has issues. Does that mean you should remove the shielding? NO. But it wont hurt anything if you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) My 800xl looks like sh*t withouth it's shield.. no bull.... Which is exactly what I said.. Please read/consider what you are actually reading.. My 130XE has I/O problems without It's shield... no bull... Can't agree with that.. sorry.. You're wrong.. Oh.. wait.. You're the guy who insists that the 1027 is a "well built" printer.. Nevermind... I am not the only person to observe this.... NO bull.... perhapse you're referring to the others in the Dr. Who section of the star-dork convention? Get a life.. Marius1976... I understand what you are saying completely....the shielding performs a function and I agree from personal experience. While many will split hairs untill only a monofiliment exists the bottom line is the shield does make a positive difference to the Atari and whatever is around it. No *BULLSH!T* noone has disputed this.. And noone is "splitting hairs" either.. Its pretty "cut & dried" what the purpose of the shield is, and what it does & doesnt do.. btw the noises observed.... local AM radio station..... ignition from neighbors car... and mutlitude of other spurious emissions... some were harmonics of other devices in the area. A HAM radio friend showed me this and asked why the shield was off. He took no time at all to explain what all the chirps and clicks and pops were and showed me the differences shield on shield off as well as how different areas of exposed circuits generated their own signals as well as how different lengths of wire and circuits pick up other singals. Poorly laid out video not only produced interference but received it as well. I am sure I could have listened further but my eyes glossed over. The shields were put back on. The problem went away. No *Bullsh!t* Hmmm. Is it just me, or is this what I actually already said? Edited February 4, 2009 by MEtalGuy66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) So if anyone but metalguy says it, it is um *bullsh!t* all the same things posted earlier in the thread. now being agreed with. I don't know marius like you know poobah....soft and cuddly metal?(what a pair running together to make postings) but Marius also witnessed similar things. so noise on the bus and other rf can't affect the Atari SIO or PIO??? It sure can. CB radio penetrated many electronic items causing undesirable effects. The FCC made rules to fix that and yet look at all the knuckleheads using linears today... Yep that will lock an unshielded computer up no problem Atari or PC. I guess it just depends on the proximity to the trucker driver or hacker kid in the car driving by your house with the noise toys on at the time. You must live in a shielded box or far from any real rf. My television has plastic housing, but wait the plastic is lined with a shielding material as is the crt. Just cause they found a cheaper way to shield things does not mean it is not just as effective or is no longer there. Just where it is needed as it is needed over the items that either create or are fall prey to it. If someone wants to design section specific shielding for the 130XE be my guest I think it is just as easy to leave the original shielding on. My 800xl looks like sh*t without it's shield.. no bull.... Which is exactly what I said.. Please read/consider what you are actually reading.. My 130XE has I/O problems without It's shield... no bull... Can't agree with that.. sorry.. You're wrong.. Oh.. wait.. You're the guy who insists that the 1027 is a "well built" printer.. Nevermind... I am not the only person to observe this.... NO bull.... perhaps you're referring to the others in the Dr. Who section of the star-dork convention? Get a life.. Marius1976... I understand what you are saying completely....the shielding performs a function and I agree from personal experience. While many will split hairs until only a monofiliment exists the bottom line is the shield does make a positive difference to the Atari and whatever is around it. No *BULLSH!T* noone has disputed this.. And noone is "splitting hairs" either.. Its pretty "cut & dried" what the purpose of the shield is, and what it does & doesnt do.. btw the noises observed.... local AM radio station..... ignition from neighbors car... and multitude of other spurious emissions... some were harmonics of other devices in the area. A HAM radio friend showed me this and asked why the shield was off. He took no time at all to explain what all the chirps and clicks and pops were and showed me the differences shield on shield off as well as how different areas of exposed circuits generated their own signals as well as how different lengths of wire and circuits pick up other signals. Poorly laid out video not only produced interference but received it as well. I am sure I could have listened further but my eyes glossed over. The shields were put back on. The problem went away. No *Bullsh!t* Hmmm. Is it just me, or is this what I actually already said? yep and it is *part* of what we said so glad you dissected it all and put the metalguy stamp on most of it as it use to all be *bullsh!t* but now we see only the tiniest part in your eyes was actually ahem *bullsh!t* cause now it is all what you said in the first place! Edited February 4, 2009 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 yep and it is *part* of what we said so glad you dissected it all and put the metalguy stamp on most of it as it use to all be *bullsh!t* but now we see only the tiniest part in your eyes was actually ahem *bullsh!t* cause now it is all what you said in the first place! Hey if your willing to act like an idiot, Im perfectly willing to ridicule you.. I said that the shield could (and does) influence the characteristics of the video output circuits.. I also said that there is no way in hell the shield is having an effect on the operational state of any of the digital circuits in the computer. This is easy to see from the stanpoint of common sense, if not actual expertise, as Poobah so kindly pointed out.. I also said that the machine does emit a field of it's own which does cause some degree of interference with RF/EMI sensitive devices close by.. You were the one insisting that without the shield, your atari would have major operational problems due to RF interference. This is not the case, unless you attempt to operate your atari inside the transformer enclosure at a power substation, in close proximity to a high-powered welding device, directly under the emitter of an X-ray machine, during/after a nuclear attack, or in some other situation where the levels of emi are thosands of times higher than what you would normally experience in a typical home or office operating environment.. Like Poobah pointed out.. They dont use ANY SHIELDING nowadayze, on devices that operate at hundreds of times faster bus speeds, with 3.3v or 1.2v voltage levels.. These devices are literally HUNDREDS of times more succeptable to inductive interference.. So much so, in fact, that they have entire books and engineering courses dedicated to these issues.. So why dont they put shielding on these devices like they did on computers in the 80s? The answer is.. (surprise, surprise) That at lower operating voltages, and higher frequencies, the devices actually EMIT LESS interference and arent likely to screw up the operation of anything around them.. Also, as Poobah pointed out, the FCC regulations were a bit rediculous in the 70s & 80s.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frotz Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I tend to polish off the rust, apply some primer, and top with rustoleum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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