ABBUC productions 2008

[+therealbountybob]

Hey, I'm a recent ABBUC member and a coder (in the lower end of the scale...)!

 

I don't understand German (perhaps the only ABBUC member) so I would like to read at least some contributions in English on the ABBUC Magazine.

 

And I would like an English version of Atarionline.pl too!

I checkout Atarionline.pl regularly using google's translator... the translation is crazy the subjects are crazy the people are crazy (in a good way) but this adds to the fun

 

For example:

Preferably the system works when the baker bakes bread, and a shoemaker makes shoes. Jak wszyscy robia wszystko to nikt nie robi niczego dobrze, marnujac za to wiele czasu na opanowywanie kolejnych umiejetnosci . How to do everything to everyone, no one does anything well, marnujac for this much time to manage the following skills:).

Edited March 9, 2009 by therealbountybob

[puppetmark]

I wish there was English version of ABBUC magazine. I would probably subscribe then.

Me too.

 

Allan

 

Me three - it was an option when I bought my SIO2USB but since it's German language I decided not to. BTW I have to say that the SIO2USB folks from ABBUC have given me great support and are extremely helpful and friendly

 

me four !

 

Me five

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

I'm an ABBUC member too. I'm not German, but the border is less then 10 kilometers from here, so I do speak German.

 

(to the point of active members and the "silly rules")

 

ABBUC is a club just like any other club. Meaning most of the members don't do anything "usefull" to the club. With the exception of one thing. They pay money to be in the club. Each member pays about 32 euro's per year. They did so when the club was founded, almost 25 years ago (OK, back then it was DM60, which is about 32 euro's in todays currency) and they still do. This might not count for much with people like kaz, but without it, you don't get a magazin, SIO2USB would never have been possible and neither would have been the software and hardware contest. Price money for both is 1000 (in words: one THOUSAND) euro's. That's money put together by us. The members of the ABBUC. Without us members there would be no ABBUC. Period!

 

Is it strange, that we, the mostly silent and "not doing much but paying our fees every year" members of ABBUC want to have a say in what we want back for OUR money? That we want the right to have a look at the software and hardware WE pay money for? In many cases, it means we have about 6 (in words: SIX) weeks max before the rest of the world gets to use the stuff WE payed for.

 

It might ofcourse have been coincidence, but since the software contest started, more software has been developed, then was in the last couple of years before that.

 

(to the point of ABBUC communicating mostly in German)

 

The ABBUC was founded almost 25 years ago in the village of Herten in Germany. Internet did not exist. Most people had never heard of the word modem, let alone seen one. In bigger countries, most people started learning foreign languages maybe a couple of decades ago. Meaning a lot of people that are now over (rough guess) 50 years of age, don't speak English. (People in Eastern Europe mostly learned English AFTER 1989 by the way) This resulted in the club having mostly German speaking members. And quite a lot of them still only speak German. If we'ld change the common language within ABBUC from German to English, we'ld loose most of our members. Which, as you might remember, pay for the magazin and the prices.

 

We have talked more then ones about including English text into the ABBUC magazin, but:

 

- To people only speaking German, more then one or two pieces of text in a foreign language is to much

- To people who do not speak German, less then 4 or 5 texts in English are not enough

- The magazin on disk should be readable by a non-modified 1050. This is the lowest common denominator. Most members only have a 1050 and are not willing to buy extra hardware just to be able to use the diskmagazin. But ofcourse, if somebody is willing to pay for let's say a minimum of 300 (in words: THREE hundred) hardware upgrades.... (that would mean that 112 members would have to pay for their own upgrade)

- Not all members who write texts, are able to do so in English (or any other foreign language). Where are we gonna get people to translate all these articles?

- ....

 

Complaining about ABBUC is easy. But ABBUC is the biggest (Atari) 8 bit user group in the world. It's the only club that was been in existence for almost 25 years and it's the only one with over 400 members. At the moment, the number of members is rising again. The ABBUC is also the only Atari 8 bit user group that has software and hardware contests. And the ABBUC is also the only Atari 8 bit club that still has meetings where more then 30 people meet a couple of times per year. And the ABBUC was the only 8 bit user group that was present at a Games convention in Leipzig last year that had 10's of thousands of visitors. The convention lasted IIRC for a week and there were at least 4 ABBUC members at the ABBUC stand on the convention each day. (But people like Bunsen can tell you more about this)

 

greetings

 

Mathy

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

 

"I'm sorry but I don't want to be an Emperor - that's not my business - I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible, Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another, human beings are like that.

 

We all want to live by each other's happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone and the earth is rich and can provide for everyone..."

 

-----

 

I am sorry but I am not a programmer, thats not my business. But I like to help everyone wherever possible... I like writing A8 related texts and articles, I like converting sounds, texts and graphics and I like providing software that is requested by someone. On atari-age, abbuc, atari-area, atari-online, etc. forums we (most of the time) want to help one another, Atarians are like that...

 

Yes, software contributions from Abbuc members especially for Abbuc magazine and the Abbuc community have been quite low in the last years. They have been so low, that most of the Abbuc disk-magazine was+is filled with software from the internet. Thats -one- of the reasons why Abbuc organized the Abbuc software contest many years ago. So at least once in a year the Abbuc diskmag is filled with software thats not available at the internet (at least not at the time when this mag arrives, usually in september; but it does not take long, approx. until november and this software can be found elsewhere). Which means of course Abbuc still has 3 diskmags that need to be filled with software - if possible software from Abbuc members... and yes, thats still a problem !

 

But hey, its an internal Abbuc problem - we will not get any new members (or programmers) discussing this here on atari-age, will we ?!? And believe it or not, we already started discussing about this one or two years ago and actually there is/was just the same discussion again at abbuc forum. So, we have not lost focus on this topic, but there is one thing which discussions cannot do: Discussions cannot persuade anyone (nor force anyone) to program anything for the A8 or for Abbuc. Its like opening a "new" topic here on atari-age (afaik similar topics here already exist) about which games or programs you would like to see on the A8. You can discusss such wishes back and forth, but still it does not nescessarily lead to new programs ("yeah I would like a Super Mario 3 clone/port..." or "yes, a Defender of the Crown or Turrican or ... would be nice to have on the A8..."). Most A8 programmers nowadays do not program something like a game or demo or application, because someone told them to do so (or someone wishes it so badly), they do it a) because they just want to / they like to (just for fun!) or b) they try to solve a problem or a gap (e.g. they need a program for themselves that does a certain thing, when they cannot find such a program, they just code it) or c) they want to impress someone or d) some other reason. Think no-one is coding A8 programs today because of the money and as said before, no-one is doing it because someone says or wishes to do it...

 

This software contribution problem is still not solved yet - but we should leave it at Abbuc and to the Abbuc members to solve it ! Of course you know, being an Abbuc member costs some money, a yearly fee of approx. 31 euro (thats why you cannot get every Abbuc program or magazine for free!). A lot of members pay this fee and then just sit back and relax. On one hand this is ok, you pay money and get something for it - but on the other hand, Abbuc is a club and lives from the activity of its members. If there would be absolutely no activity then the club would be dead or obsolete, luckily we have at least "some" activity. But it is each members own decision which activity to make - no-one can be forced to be active in one way or another. Still you are right, not every A8 production that is made by an Abbuc member is automatically an Abbuc production (I would count only the things that are done directly for Abbuc, not things that are done on an Atari homepage or forum located somewhere in the world). When I create tip animations - which I do not program, I just convert pictures, thats all - and upload them to atari-age, thats for sure not automatically an Abbuc production...

 

Enough said for today. We can leave it anyway, since this discussion will not lead to more software productions of Abbuc members for Abbuc magazine or the Abbuc community. But hey, just another reminder: The Abbuc Software Contest is still held in 2009 ! You can send in your XL/XE contributions (no matter if you are an Abbuc member or not) until the 31st of august 2009 to softwareatabbucpointde and win prizes and public honour ! Disclaimer: This was+is just my personal opinion ! -Andreas Koch.

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

Andreas, sometimes we argue, sometimes we cooperate and you know that I generally agree with your ideas. But I don't agree with this statement:

 

We can leave it anyway, since this discussion will not lead to more software productions of Abbuc members for Abbuc magazine or the Abbuc community.

 

I just think that open discussion and better knowledge about internal things in ABBUC can help more to attract people by your club-idea. Look above - how many forum user would like to be a members of ABBUC! I also got interesting details from this topic - list of programmers and list of things are going on inside. It can help me in future to cooperate with ABBUC members.

 

I still belive our "duels" are making many good things

Edited March 10, 2009 by Kaz atarionline.pl

[MEtalGuy66]

I've been an Abbuc member for 4 years... I live in the US.. Their Magazine and disks arrive in the mail without fail, at least 6 times per year.. It costs about $32.00US per year for membership.

[Shawn Jefferson]

I just joined ABBUC myself. Haven't received anything from them yet, but I'm waiting eagerly even though I won't be able to read it! I guess I'll have to learn German.

 

Maybe we can get enough people together for a North American chapter?

[candle]

looking as outsider on polish atari community:

kaz's atarionline forum for example - why it is there at all? can we (as polish citizens) afford splitting our resources (not that rich i'm affride) over various polish sites? is this about the "power" and "the only way things should have been done"?

its easy to criticise someone else, but to see oneself's mistakes, or wasted opportunities - well - thats another thing, isn't it?

i think there is quote from bible on this matter, but i'm atheist, so excuse me

would really see some unity on my own backyard, and then perhaps have gone to criticise the others

[Marius]

I must say there are lots of moments I do not understand Mathy's post, or that I do not agree with him.

 

But his post in this thread, exactly describes what I tried to say.

 

And good thoughts too.

 

It is true. In the 'early days' there were also BBS's and people were much more concentrated on their social network, compared to today. Most people have access to internet, so they do not have to stay at one club or write or produce for one.

 

15 years ago it was incredible cool to write a demo just for 'your audience' the ABBUC folks. You knew your 'audience' ('the Abbuc members') and that is a certain closeless. Also a certain competition. Members and groups tried to create cooler and better things than the other. That is also the time that 'everyone' knew about High Tech Team, Steve Zipp, The Black Shadow. That kind of names.

 

Today everything is fast... and the modern era has it's benefits and drawback. The time that people 'just wrote for abbuc' for the reason I describe above, is almost over. People spread their atari wings, and now the world is their audience. No longer just the abbuc group.

 

But... people also find the right group-feel with Abbuc. Why do we stick with atari computers? Because it gives many of us the feeling of the 80's era. It is a cool computer, from a time I have lot's of fond memories. And Abbuc belongs to that feeling. For me.

 

In the early days abbuc had the Abbuc BBS (Abbuc Box, operated by Sysop*Heiko) and I would love to see THAT back. I don't need a modern Abbuc website, or a abbuc internet forum. For me atari age is THE forum. I would like to stay abbuc as most as original. I don't want to change my Atari computers too much either!

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

kaz's atarionline forum for example - why it is there at all?

 

Yes, you discovered the secret! To waste Atari community "opportunities" and "resources" LOL.

 

can we (as polish citizens) afford splitting our resources (not that rich i'm affride) over various polish sites?

is this about the "power" and "the only way things should have been done"?

would really see some unity on my own backyard,

 

Logical conflict. When you have only one site and unity - it is state when exists "the only way things should have been done". Do you miss communism ("Working men of all countries unite!") or nasizm ("One people, one country/empire, one leader")? I do not. The only healthy competition of ideas can help us to grow up and to evolve.

 

and then perhaps have gone to criticise the others

 

Candle, you can't get background story reading last few posts. I critised one thing in ABBUC years ago - rules of compo. It made me to organize KazKompo, because I'm not a person who doesn't like something and only talking bla, bla, bla. Would you like to take away my rights to own opinion and to be active because you prefere "unity"?

Edited March 10, 2009 by Kaz atarionline.pl

[candle]

i would rather prefer to have one strong polish site about atari, with real activity going on, and not to have beg for any support for my works - period

my opinion is you should work with dely to make better site, rather than separate

i'm not taking away your right to do anything, especially to be active or to have your own opinion, just don't see a point in having two separate and incomplete sites - yours lack of real forum, and dely's lack almost everything else...

and i did read whole thread, but again - i might have no historical background for criticism of yours, and have no real intrest in such.

if you want to change anything in abbuc group - join it

 

personally, i would rather say you're stuck in tribal wars, rather than more complicated or advanced (in chronological sense) social structures like communism, or misquoted totalitarism

all that you're really saing is "me is bigger chief than dely! come to me tribe! peanuts and free beer!" (worked in southpark, should work in here too...)

[Heaven/TQA]

dely has a site? or is he doing atariarea?

[Kaz atarionline.pl]

I would rather prefer to have one strong polish site about atari

 

You still miss the point. "Only one" means monopoly and every monopol going the same direction - slower and worst service for members of community.

 

with real activity going on

 

What kind of "real" activity you mean? Is actual activity "unreal"?

 

and not to have beg for any support for my works - period

 

Ok, I got it! When you have an idea, you are telling people what to do and they should follow you... Nice idea, very comfortable, good luck with realisation.

 

my opinion is you should work with dely to make better site, rather than separate

 

I did. For many years I directed, attracted and convinced many people to be Atari Area forum members. They were sometimes treated in very bad manner and I felt embarassed. Morever Dely was not interested in stronger cooperation, so I suppose this was "rule the world" syndrom, you mention above. Atari8.info, second big Atari site, was interested in cooperation and we were close to connect both sites (AtariOnline and Atari8.inf), but their newsman and heart of site Jurgi has gone Atari scene (question to you: why?) and we didn't completed this nice idea. Thus, I started doing things on my own and I believe it is a good choice.

 

just don't see a point in having two separate and incomplete sites - yours lack of real forum, and dely's lack almost everything else...

 

Thank you for notice I almost completed my site .

 

Have good news for you - Forum Atarum is working and is real . Still under construction and still look awful, but some Atari enthusiasts are working on it. However, an appearance is not so important like contents. I notice about 30 comments every day and we just have almost 800 together. Atari-related ONLY. More than 80 members registered last weeks. I think that forum things are going right direction.

 

if you want to change anything in abbuc group - join it

 

Have you ever heard about tyrany of democracy? When 400 people decide about things who knows and understand only 40 people don't expect too much . I have the same chances (or even more) to change something from outside.

 

By the way - I don't want to change ABBUC. I care about this club, because ABBUC is part of my emotions and memory too. I can give advice, but don't like to force people. If they don't like me ideas I realize them myself.

 

all that you're really saing is "me is bigger chief than dely! come to me tribe! peanuts and free beer!" (worked in southpark, should work in here too...)

 

Unfortunatly I don't have free beer even I know that it could attract many people. I can only offer enthusiasm for Atari-related things and place to share our passion. Can help with some projects too.

[Marius]

Please folks... don't start a flame-war.

[candle]

never intended, sorry!

[cas]

Hi,

 

on the question/request of an ABBUC Mag in English. US/English ABBUC Chapter:

 

this has been discussed on the ABBUC Forums many times now. it comes back every year or so:

http://abbuc.de/modules.php?name=Forums&am...opic&t=3021

http://abbuc.de/modules.php?name=Forums&am...opic&t=2640

 

The problem is the lack of resources. We are happy about every ABBUC Member writing an article in german language. When we ask them to deliver an english translation also they will probably do not deliver anything (either they are not good in english, do not have time. or both). We also do not have enough people that understand both german and english to translate.

 

An english Chapter might help in this situation, if only to push some of the german members to do some translation work.

 

There was a time in 1980s and early 1990s where there was a very fruitful exchange of magazines and printed newsletters between US Atari User Groups and ABBUC. But with the demise of the US Atari User Group scene this communication channel dried out. Also the ATARI BBS Network between US, Nederlands and Germany was very active at that time. The Internet made that obsolete.

 

What I have learned from ABBUC: for a User Group to be stable that long it needs a core group of people (Like Wolfgang Burger, Jost Küp, Udo Wrobel, Walter Lojek and the other core team members -> http://abbuc.de/modules.php?name=DocTree&a...lk=y&dtId=7 , with passion to keep the ball going all time.

 

Most User Groups I know of (not communities, User Groups with membership fees) have a small percentage of active members and a huge group of "consumers". They are driven by a handful of people. If this handful of people loose interest, the group dies. That happen to a lot Atari User Groups in the 1990s.

 

For a US/English Chapter to really work, we would need a small group of dedicated Atari Users out there. Not necessary Coders or people being active today. Running a User Group is a great way for people to get active that have been "consumers" before, Atari Fans with some spare time but skills in communication, motivation and "social networking". It can be great fun, but it is also a lot of work. But worth it.

 

If anyone is interested in creating an US/English ABBUC Chapter, please let me know and I'll discuss the topic with the ABBUC Core team.

 

Of course it is also possible to create a new US/English User Group independent from ABBUC (probably easier from the legal/financial aspect anyway).

 

(the above are my personal thoughts, I'm not speaking for ABBUC officially).

 

Carsten

[Defender II]

looking as outsider on polish atari community:

kaz's atarionline forum for example - why it is there at all? can we (as polish citizens) afford splitting our resources (not that rich i'm affride) over various polish sites? is this about the "power" and "the only way things should have been done"?

its easy to criticise someone else, but to see oneself's mistakes, or wasted opportunities - well - thats another thing, isn't it?

i think there is quote from bible on this matter, but i'm atheist, so excuse me

would really see some unity on my own backyard, and then perhaps have gone to criticise the others

 

Well said!

I believe you are referring to removing the beam in your own eye before trying to remove the mote in another's.

 

Languages are a hobby of mine and I envy anyone who can converse in more than one.

Many years ago, I was lucky enough to live for quite awhile in another country and was able to learn the alphabet, numbers and many common phrases. I am still embarrassed by how poor my skills are compared with anyone who is a non-native English speaker that successfully gets their point across in this tongue.

Even more so… Bravo for putting up with people of other countries who expect everyone else to learn English. That embarrasses me even more than my poor skills.